[Movie] Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice

[Svifnymr]

But... I just want to see Batman Batman.

It's not age that's the problem, it's the dark n' gritty DKR style Batman who's seen too much and forsaken his moral code. DKR is supposed to be a deconstruction of Batman or a grim possible future for him (I think it's not in the main canon at all, though I haven't kept up). It's starkly at odds with traditional depictions of Batman and doesn't suit the tone of Justice League.

Keep in mind that I'm not a DC Comic Reader, but from what I know there have been a lot of iterations of Batman (and every other character in Marvel/ DC). You may want Batman 23b, but someone else might want Batman 54h. Batman can hold his own as a crimefighter, but there is something to be said about the Strategist Batman running the team of superheroes who are on a totally different scale than him. A Batman that recognizes that the anger has pushed him too far. For me, I'd prefer a Batman that's not just super martial arts guy, but rather someone that takes a bigger view of a situation.

I can't seem them doing a hard reboot. They can tweak the world and present something to please folks, but uh... you gotta open your expectations a lot...

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Besides [Wonder Woman's] great origin story, there's nothing from the comics that felt right 100 percent, no iconic canon story that must be told. Batman has it made — he's got the greatest rogues gallery ever, he's got Gotham City. The Bat writes himself. With Wonder Woman, you're writing from whole cloth, but trying to make it feel like you didn't. To make it feel like it's existed for 60 years, even though you're making it up as you go along. But who she, and what the movie, is about, thematically, has never been a problem for me. But the steps along the way, it could be so easy for them to feel wrong. I won't settle. She wouldn't let me settle."

— Joss Whedon in November 2006, explaining the delay in developing a proper script.[

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He never did the script. And the producers at the time didn't have any enthusiasm for a WW movie.

He wrote a draft that he presented to DC/WB. They didn't want it and they didn't want him. He's still a little sore about it.

[Mormolyce]

Keep in mind that I'm not a DC Comic Reader, but from what I know there have been a lot of iterations of Batman (and every other character in Marvel/ DC). You may want Batman 23b, but someone else might want Batman 54h. Batman can hold his own as a crimefighter, but there is something to be said about the Strategist Batman running the team of superheroes who are on a totally different scale than him. A Batman that recognizes that the anger has pushed him too far. For me, I'd prefer a Batman that's not just super martial arts guy, but rather someone that takes a bigger view of a situation.

I can't seem them doing a hard reboot. They can tweak the world and present something to please folks, but uh... you gotta open your expectations a lot...

There are many versions of Batman, most of them are fairly close to the central modern portrayal of him though. The Arkham games did a great job of bringing that version to life for a non-comics audience. The version from Dark Knight Returns (Frank Miller's graphic novel in the 80s) is supposed to be a future version of Batman when he's come back from retirement and it's quite different in tone from classic Batman. It's well-known though because DKR was popular. I don't think the latter works in Justice League, as you say you need a thinker Batman for that.

And don't worry, my expectations for the DC universe are zero at the moment!

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Besides [Wonder Woman's] great origin story, there's nothing from the comics that felt right 100 percent, no iconic canon story that must be told. Batman has it made — he's got the greatest rogues gallery ever, he's got Gotham City. The Bat writes himself. With Wonder Woman, you're writing from whole cloth, but trying to make it feel like you didn't. To make it feel like it's existed for 60 years, even though you're making it up as you go along. But who she, and what the movie, is about, thematically, has never been a problem for me. But the steps along the way, it could be so easy for them to feel wrong. I won't settle. She wouldn't let me settle."

— Joss Whedon in November 2006, explaining the delay in developing a proper script.[

--------------

He never did the script. And the producers at the time didn't have any enthusiasm for a WW movie.

Personally, I think writing a good Wonder Woman movie is the hardest thing to do in modern comics movies. You have to be respectful of the character's history, which is even harder to sell in modern cinema than Superman.

I mean for a start, she's an explicitly feminist superhero, and that'll have the internet in a neckbeard rage from the get-go. If you take that away from her, you're not being faithful to Wonder Woman.

I suspect the upcoming Wonder Woman movie will ignore all that and just be a silly movie about a woman in greek-ish getup fighting mythological monsters.

this batman needs to heal, and the best way to heal is for him to reconnect with his pseudo children.

theres ALOT of room for growth between bruce and dick grayson, barbara is possible too but ive heard nothing about her so she might not even exist.

nightwing and batmans interactions in the solo movie will probably be the most interesting parts. i dont think bruce has talked to dick since atleast todds death.

then we'll hopefully get the teen titans movie soon after.

for me affleck is the best batman, just barely edging out keaton

I would love to see a movie that does the full Robin/Nightwing story with Grayson/Todd/Drake and makes all the Robins cool and interesting characters. They've never been done well in film. I really doubt the current DC universe will do any of that justice though. Even if they change directors.

I'm reserving judgement on how good Affleck is as Batman, the one in BvS was horrible and stupid but that's because the movie was horrible and stupid. Based on what I saw, he was doing his best but what can you do with a stinker like that? We'll see I guess. I can't say I'm optimistic.

[Deleted]

In any case, voice actors shouldn't be talked about like they 'aren't real actors' because that's just incredibly ignorant.

I never said they're not real actors, I merely implied you cannot compare voice acting and 'normal' acting.

[RobertoCarlos]

I never said they're not real actors, I merely implied you cannot compare voice acting and 'normal' acting.

Well CGI and hand drawn animation are legit modes of making a movie so voice acting still holds a place in mainstream entertainment. So not sure what your point is exactly.

[Deleted]

Well CGI and hand drawn animation are legit modes of making a movie so voice acting still holds a place in mainstream entertainment. So not sure what your point is exactly.

Actors like Christian Bale adopt physique, voices, ways of walking, talking, fighting, everything .. to give life to a character. Voice actors have 90% of this, they bring life to a character by lending it a voice.

If you say Kevin Conroy is the best VOICE actor for Batman, sure. Saying he is the best Batman actor all round, then I simply disagree as it's a different category.

p.s. I've just seen The Fighter, holy shit Bale is good in that.

[RobertoCarlos]

Actors like Christian Bale adopt physique, voices, ways of walking, talking, fighting, everything .. to give life to a character. Voice actors have 90% of this, they bring life to a character by lending it a voice.

If you say Kevin Conroy is the best VOICE actor for Batman, sure. Saying he is the best Batman actor all round, then I simply disagree as it's a different category.

p.s. I've just seen The Fighter, holy shit Bale is good in that.

Ah yeah well fair call. Actor certainly pertains to phyiscal actor. My personal favourite batman actor so far is Michael keaten then probably Ben Affleck. As much as I love christian bale I wasnt big on his batman voice. As bruce wayne and in general he was awesome though.

And yeah Christian bale is super good in the fighter. Looks well and truly like a washed out heroin junkie. Also American psycho/ prestige / pretty much all his films

[Deleted]

Well I am one of the few people alive who didn't hate Christian's Bale voice in the trilogy (the guy has quite a unique voice on his own already). Then again I also liked Bane's voice.


Bring out the pitchforks.

[Deleted]

Wonder Woman was alright for the three seconds we saw her, I have a terrible feeling about her film though.

REALLY? I found her costume WAAAAAAAAY to dark compared to the WW I grew up with and dont get me even started on the actress....

Keep in mind that I'm not a DC Comic Reader

And right there is your problem.....

but from what I know there have been a lot of iterations of Batman (and every other character in Marvel/ DC). You may want Batman 23b, but someone else might want Batman 54h.

Wrong. Batman at the core is the same - a mostly loner, master tatican and the worlds greatest detectiv
who has a code he lives by.
There is no batman 1 an 23b and 54.

[Deleted]

REALLY? I found her costume WAAAAAAAAY to dark compared to the WW I grew up with and dont get me even started on the actress....

Do you miss Superman and Batman's underwear too?

[Mormolyce]

REALLY? I found her costume WAAAAAAAAY to dark compared to the WW I grew up with and dont get me even started on the actress....

The costume was too dark, everything in the film was. As for the actress, she didn't have enough opportunities to act for me to judge.

The tone of the film shifts when she turns up at the end though. Like she belonged in a different movie. A better one, that's remotely fun to watch...

Do you miss Superman and Batman's underwear too?

I actually think Superman's costume looks totally wrong without the "underwear", all that plain blue space. The weird sculpted groin furniture they came up with didn't help either, just do nothing if you're not going to change the colour. And at least give him a belt.

Batman... well there's plenty of underwear-less versions of that costume. It's close to monochromatic anyway.

[Deleted]

I actually think Superman's costume looks totally wrong without the "underwear", all that plain blue space. The weird sculpted groin furniture they came up with didn't help either, just do nothing if you're not going to change the colour. And at least give him a belt.

Batman... well there's plenty of underwear-less versions of that costume. It's close to monochromatic anyway.

Well he does have a slight yellow-ish belt like thing around his groin. Or well, a button kind of thing (I guess superman has to take a leak too while fighting crime). But I agree they could slightly alter the color a bit.

[Kelimbror]

I never said they're not real actors, I merely implied you cannot compare voice acting and 'normal' acting.

You didn't need to overtly state it, the entire logic behind your judgment is saying that. Even still, this one sentence alone reinforces that you are exactly saying they aren't real actors. There's just really no weight or merit behind your statements other than to be willfully ignorant. Your examples are to compare intense method actors in specific extreme roles to voice actors and then say they don't do the same amount of work.

That's not really a realistic case study nor relevant to how we had been discussing it...but w/e. You also can't compare 'normal''real'actors to method actors in a method role. So what you seem to be saying is you value method acting above everything else, which is fine. But that doesn't somehow negate all the other acting out there. Fwiw, he didn't really have to do much to be Batman. He did what every actor has to do, have a free personal trainer and a chef who makes you perfect meals while you exercise all day and be rich. Bale is great, but if we are talking about 'best Batman' then his preparation for the role isn't so impressive that you should not consider Conroy.

Additionally, if you listen to Conroy talk about Batman and Bruce he probably understands the duality and how they think more than anyone. He's had more lines of dialogue, more scripts, done more research into what makes the man and the Bat. He *is* Batman.

[Deleted]

Even still, this one sentence alone reinforces that you are exactly saying they aren't real actors.

I think exactly in your language means something completely different then... It's quite hard not being an actor when you're a voice-ACTOR. I also never mentioned method actors alone, though they are generally of better quality imo.

Also I wasn't 'discussing' Kevin Conroy, merely stating that I find it stupid to put VOICE-ACTORS (it has actor in it btw) and actors in the same comparison. Compare Bale, Kilmer, Clooney, Affleck, hell a 1920's Batman actor for all I care, but then just don't simply walz in and say how Kevin Conroy beats them all. It's a different category, simple.

Fwiw, he didn't really have to do much to be Batman. He did what every actor has to do, have a free personal trainer and a chef who makes you perfect meals while you exercise all day and be rich. Bale is great, but if we are talking about 'best Batman' then his preparation for the role isn't so impressive that you should not consider Conroy.

Ah yes, coming from being unhealthy underweight, to a too muscular Batman in half a year, speaking in an American accent for months etc. is clearly as easy as simply being rich and lending your voice to a cartoon/animated movie/video game.

And it was not about who knows most about Batman, Conroy has doing it for decades now anyway. Hell he could have invented Batman for all I care, that still doesn't change the fact he's a voice actor.

[Jotaux]

Nah, I would still say hands down, Kevin Conroy is the best Batman

[Faroth]

But... I just want to see Batman Batman.

It's not age that's the problem, it's the dark n' gritty DKR style Batman who's seen too much and forsaken his moral code. DKR is supposed to be a deconstruction of Batman or a grim possible future for him (I think it's not in the main canon at all, though I haven't kept up). It's starkly at odds with traditional depictions of Batman and doesn't suit the tone of Justice League.

Even Dark Knight Returns maintained that Batman's core remains unaltered. Even deconstructed Batman, the story kept him faithful to his rule to never kill. I always thought he did once or twice in that one, but I've seen realized he doesn't.

Machine gun scene includes "rubber bullets" comment.
After shooting the guy holding the baby hostage, an APB is announced on Batman listing his crimes. Murder still isn't listed there among them.
And the climax with Joker, he breaks his neck, disappointing Joker since it would have been the "perfect" moment for Batman to cross the line. Batman's own thoughts state "I'm not a killer. I wish I was."

Batman's car chase murder spree was just lazy in that they went with generic action movie stuff rather than creative Batman ways of handling it. Caltrops blowing out tires. Firing a grappling cable onto a car and firing off electricity the basically tazer everyone in it. Having EMP pulse weapons loaded on the Batmobile. Even firing tear gas grenades into the vans that are open with guys shooting at him. There are plenty of ways to dispatch everyone in that scene without Batman killing all of them.

Maybe someday they'll actually have a cinematic Batman that doesn't murder people, but so far we haven't seen one.

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Do you miss Superman and Batman's underwear too?

Although the game wasn't as well received as the original two, Arkham Origins I thought did an interesting job of modernizing Batman's costume and still keeping the underwear visually designed without looking silly.

It wasn't full on "underwear on the outside" but still had some difference from the legs.

[Shadowferal]

There are many versions of Batman, most of them are fairly close to the central modern portrayal of him though.

The original version he carried a gun and used it.
Although he's changed quite a bit, I can see it going full circle.

Personally, I think writing a good Wonder Woman movie is the hardest thing to do in modern comics movies. You have to be respectful of the character's history, which is even harder to sell in modern cinema than Superman.
I mean for a start, she's an explicitly feminist superhero, and that'll have the internet in a neckbeard rage from the get-go. If you take that away from her, you're not being faithful to Wonder Woman.

You mention another issue that Whedon had problems with; the feminist angle. How to do it without her coming across as a super-feminist which would have turned off whole demographics while trying to write a good story...

[Deleted]

I personally like how there can be a different version of Batman every 10 years or so. It keeps the character interesting.

Ben Affleck was a great Batman for me and I can't wait to see him in his own movie.

[Mormolyce]

Even Dark Knight Returns maintained that Batman's core remains unaltered. Even deconstructed Batman, the story kept him faithful to his rule to never kill. I always thought he did once or twice in that one, but I've seen realized he doesn't.

Machine gun scene includes "rubber bullets" comment.
After shooting the guy holding the baby hostage, an APB is announced on Batman listing his crimes. Murder still isn't listed there among them.
And the climax with Joker, he breaks his neck, disappointing Joker since it would have been the "perfect" moment for Batman to cross the line. Batman's own thoughts state "I'm not a killer. I wish I was."

Batman's car chase murder spree was just lazy in that they went with generic action movie stuff rather than creative Batman ways of handling it. Caltrops blowing out tires. Firing a grappling cable onto a car and firing off electricity the basically tazer everyone in it. Having EMP pulse weapons loaded on the Batmobile. Even firing tear gas grenades into the vans that are open with guys shooting at him. There are plenty of ways to dispatch everyone in that scene without Batman killing all of them.

Maybe someday they'll actually have a cinematic Batman that doesn't murder people, but so far we haven't seen one.

Yeah, I'm not really a fan of the depiction in DKR but you're right, even that doesn't cross the kill line.

The original version he carried a gun and used it.
Although he's changed quite a bit, I can see it going full circle.

That's not really true. I've read some early Batman.

Here's an interesting look at it:

http://sacomics.blogspot.com.au/2005...-and-guns.html

You mention another issue that Whedon had problems with; the feminist angle. How to do it without her coming across as a super-feminist which would have turned off whole demographics while trying to write a good story...

There's no getting around it. Wonder Woman was a straight up feminist. Imagine this in a modern movie:

[Immitis]

I think exactly in your language means something completely different then... It's quite hard not being an actor when you're a voice-ACTOR. I also never mentioned method actors alone, though they are generally of better quality imo.

Also I wasn't 'discussing' Kevin Conroy, merely stating that I find it stupid to put VOICE-ACTORS (it has actor in it btw) and actors in the same comparison. Compare Bale, Kilmer, Clooney, Affleck, hell a 1920's Batman actor for all I care, but then just don't simply walz in and say how Kevin Conroy beats them all. It's a different category, simple.



Ah yes, coming from being unhealthy underweight, to a too muscular Batman in half a year, speaking in an American accent for months etc. is clearly as easy as simply being rich and lending your voice to a cartoon/animated movie/video game.

And it was not about who knows most about Batman, Conroy has doing it for decades now anyway. Hell he could have invented Batman for all I care, that still doesn't change the fact he's a voice actor.

voice actors are better actors than physical actors in everyway, its much more difficult to bring life to something that isnt real. voice actors often have NOTHING to work with, if theyre lucky they get a storyboard to help guide them but the majority of the time they have to bring life to the character with nothing but their imagination and talent.

what makes it easier to think and act like someone else being surrounded by other people, things, and places meant for that person and situation or being in a fucking box with a piece of paper?

personal experience.