Colin Johanson on the trinity in GW2

[Karizee]

This week's POI is generating a lot of discussion in the GW2 community, specifically Colin's points on their goals for tanking and healing and overall grand vision for the combat system.

Here's the video of the livestream, Colin starts discussing the Revenant's healing abilities at 4:30 and how it will lead into the challenging group content for HoT.

At 6:00 he says, "We never said we don't want to have the DPS, the tank and the healer in the game, I think that's a common misconception. We never said we don't want those things, what we said is we don't want people locked into one of those roles forever."

[zito]

The current implementation of combat vs what they want is total opposite that this interview is a joke

what even

[Karizee]

The current implementation of combat vs what they want is total opposite that this interview is a joke

what even

Well hand on to your pretty pink pants, zito. It's coming

He actually addresses this in the video, saying that we currently see it in PvP and to a lesser extent in WvW but not so much in PvE at this time. He says this will change with the CGC in HoT.

[Fencers]

I love the production space and structure Anet have for their POI videos. Though I think the lighting can be adjusted slightly so the hosts are not so orange-y. Yea, really that's my only gripe; the lighting rig is somewhat odd.

Audio is fabulous though. Great mixing.

[Edge-]

We never said we don't want to have the DPS, the tank and the healer in the game, I think that's a common misconception. We never said we don't want those things, what we said is we don't want people locked into one of those roles forever.

Did he seriously just say that? Because like, the whole lack of a trinity was one of the main fucking marketing points they used to sell the bloody game.

I can imagine him with that smug fucking smile on his face while he says that too. Can't even bring myself to watch the video, because that kind of historical revisionism is bullshit. Technically he's right, because they didn't say those exact words. But he's also spouting bullshit because we all know how hard they pushed the whole, "WE DON'T HAVE A HARD TRINITY IN OUR GAME, WE ARE DIFFERENT!" angle.

[Valeron]

With the way active defense works in the game, having a character with "tank" gear and build will just end up hurting your team. Unless they plan on revamping the whole combat system, it's not going to work.

[Fencers]

It is worth noting the developer may be using the term of "tank" informally as in "tankiness"; which does not necessarily mean a tank, but rather a somewhat more defensive or hearty build/character than otherwise.

"Tanking" or to be a "tank" as a game mechanic also implies enmity, whether actual or false. as part of a controlling function.

I feel it is unlikely Arena.net will implement a false or disproportionate enmity mechanism to Guild Wars 2. So my hunch is Colin is just using the term informally as to say "tougher than average" in referencing tanks/tanking/role trinity.

[Svifnymr]

Did he seriously just say that? Because like, the whole lack of a trinity was one of the main fucking marketing points they used to sell the bloody game.

Yeah, they never specifically said "well never said"... like we somehow misunderstood the intent when they released a game and didn't add such content for years.

I guess we just misunderstood and they've been deciding how to implement it for all this time? Silly us.

[Maarius]

funny guys judging... have you even watched the clip?

- - - Updated - - -

Did he seriously just say that? Because like, the whole lack of a trinity was one of the main fucking marketing points they used to sell the bloody game.

I can imagine him with that smug fucking smile on his face while he says that too. Can't even bring myself to watch the video, because that kind of historical revisionism is bullshit. Technically he's right, because they didn't say those exact words. But he's also spouting bullshit because we all know how hard they pushed the whole, "WE DON'T HAVE A HARD TRINITY IN OUR GAME, WE ARE DIFFERENT!" angle.

They still don't bring back healing and tanking like you know it from other mmos. No trinity or tanking (as you make it look like) will be in the game. It's perfectly visible with the current Revenant beta: the Ventari Legend let's you play a really supporty role: you create healing pods (a bit like the Engineer bandages) and can command your tablet to do some healing. BUT you still can't outheal the big hits (I've tried it yesterday with full clerics build). You still have to move out of red circles and dodge heavy attacks.

I also tried the tanky-spec as Jalis Legend. You can taunt your enemies for a few seconds, but the aggro mechanic is still the old GW2 aggro mechanic: the enemy won't stay on you and you can't soak up all his hits. You have to actively move away / block the attacks (just like before) and taunting is mostly used to help an ally who is near death to give him some breathing / time to get rallied.

in short: there is no holy trinity. Just some roles you can switch to which do the thing you could do until now a bit better. And yeah, it's really fun to play the tanky Jalis who uses his active support skills. Just don't let him get a hit in the face after you've used your defensive skills.

[Svifnymr]

funny guys judging... have you even watched the clip?

We don't watch the videos, we let Dulfy suffer for us, so that we may live in peace.

[Maarius]

in case some of you forgot what Anet tried to achieve with it's combat system read here again:

http://amd-icbm.com/icbm/anet-blog-w...-about-combat/
(an archived Anet Blogpost from Feb 2, 2011, written by Jon Peters in order to clarify)

as I've tried the Revenant's healing build (Ventari) and "tanky" build (Jalis) I can say that they haven't changed their stance at all.

- - - Updated - - -

also here a clarification by Colin

I think some of my point was either misunderstood or lost here, in particular reading Nikes comments on the youtube section so I'll try and clarify more simply:We like the way combat works right now, we really don't plan to change it much other than add more options with elite specs.
It works the way we intended: you can play control, support, and DPS actively. To folks who prefer to define by the holy trinity, Gw2 doesn't force you to pick one of the three from heal, tank, or DPS and only do that - it blends a mix depending on your build and allows you to actively swap roles or soft play between roles. Our goal was to remove the forced singular role per you're locked into, people often mistake this as saying gw2 has no trinity elements, that isn't true - we just don't believe in a forced role per for Gw2 for the reasons I covered in the live stream.

That said the point I really wanted to make in the live stream was the issue with the combat system in PvE isn't the combat system. It's that the mobs and encounters we have provided so far very rarely allow/encourage you to make use of the combat system as intended. There are some exceptions, but one of our goals with HoT is to help allow more room for players to experience the full range of the combat system in PvE. From the common world mobs up to the challenging group content we will talk about later, we are asking our design team to design encounters in PvE more focused on using the system we have built.
Hope that helps a bit! - CJ

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/...teaser/ct0zl4g

[zito]

Revenant tank stance isn't even remotely defensive or tanking besides the elite and ventari isn't needed in the current pve or new pve so far in the open world. They haven't mentioned any sort of new instance content or revamp of the old.

If they want tank abs healing to be a more important thing they need to change combat itself which I don't see that happening. If they only do it for the new zones then that's lame

[Fencers]

Developer's "clarification" is nonsensical and contradictory. I would even label it ignorant if it wasn't marketing.

[Moxal]

I could never get into GW2 due to its lack of a hard trinity.

I really only like to heal. *shrug*

[Mormolyce]

I liked the fact that GW2 was brave enough to discard the "holy trinity" and I hope more games innovate in that area.

I haven't played it so I can't comment on how well their implementation worked out. The concept is sound though.

[Karizee]

I liked the fact that GW2 was brave enough to discard the "holy trinity" and I hope more games innovate in that area.

I haven't played it so I can't comment on how well their implementation worked out. The concept is sound though.

It's quite brilliant in that it eliminated dungeon and group queues. You can go to Silverwastes and when the breach event is about to pop, put up an LFG listing and BOOM! instantly the map is full. This happens for pretty much everything - dungeons, fractals and events.

There have been concerns raised by some that the PvE content lacks depth, or promotes a zerker dps mentality/meta. But what actually happens is that the less experienced or less skilled players will bring more support roles while the ultra-skilled speed run groups run pure berserker dps. So much stuff with the Revenant over the weekend - I saw one video where a player in a full heals Rev was standing in the Horrik's cannon fire in the Mai Trin Fractal (this is certain death to a zerk dps build, most of the playerbase does not even attempt this content in any role).

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Well considering mobs never live long enough to do significant damage to you anyways under the bland zerker meta (and if they do, the damage only tickles you due to everyone stacking ontop of the dozen yellow overlapping circles of life), the statement is pretty much mute anywahs. You can't force mobs to focus on you, thus preventing a tank build emerging, and again with the zerker meta dedicated healers are irrelevant.

[Maarius]

Revenant tank stance isn't even remotely defensive or tanking besides the elite and ventari isn't needed in the current pve or new pve so far in the open world. They haven't mentioned any sort of new instance content or revamp of the old.

If they want tank abs healing to be a more important thing they need to change combat itself which I don't see that happening. If they only do it for the new zones then that's lame

I disagree

My tanky build with Revenant:
-) weapon: staff
-) staff 1: a nice sustained heal
-) staff 3: a block / projectile reflect which blinds enemies
-) staff 4: a heal and condition removal
-) staff 5: a knockback which knocks enemies along your path: ideal to get them out of their own red circles

utilities:
-) Dwarven stance:
-) Inspiring Reinforcement (the stone road) - weakens enemies and gives you stability - no cooldown, just energy dependant
-) Forced Engagement (a taunt) - forces enemies to attack you, traited these enemies do less damage - no cooldown, just energy dependant

Traits

1.) Salvation line
-) Disarming Riposte blinds enemies you hit when they use a skill
-) Blinding Truths: blind foes when you use a healing skill (should synergise with staff 4)
-) Hardened Foundation: gain toughness based on your healing power (that's why I use celestial gear)
-) Eluding Nullification - removes conditions in an aoe (yourself included) when dodging
-) Serene Rejuvination - increase healing (synergises with staff 1 and 4)

2.) Retribution line
-) Enduring Recovery: gain Endurance on some hits you take - synergises with Unwavoring Avoidance (gain stability when you dodge)
-) Improved Aggression: taunts last double on npcs and taunted enemies do less damage
-) Redeeming Protection: you gain protection when you're CCd
-) Determined Resolution: take less damage when under the health threshold
-) Reflexive Summon (when you hit you spawn a hammer which swirls around you and aoe weakens foes) OR Rejuvenation Steadfast (heal on hit every 4 seconds)

3.) Invocation
-) Minor traits spawn healing orbs on skill use which are pulled in automatically
-) Invigorating Howl: you heal yourself on skill use when the skill costs energy
-) shrouding mists: when your energy is below the threshold, you take less damage (above the threshold: incresed healing - synergises with staff skills)

The bold ones are the bulk of the build

[...]not even remotely defensive or tanking[...]

you have no idea. I've tested the above build and it really does make a difference in survival AND supporting allied melee.

[Rukh]

Well considering mobs never live long enough to do significant damage to you anyways under the bland zerker meta (and if they do, the damage only tickles you due to everyone stacking ontop of the dozen yellow overlapping circles of life), the statement is pretty much mute anywahs. You can't force mobs to focus on you, thus preventing a tank build emerging, and again with the zerker meta dedicated healers are irrelevant.

Which was his whole point -- the problem is the content doesn't challenge people so people have no reason to do anything than burn things down. Everything in GW2 PVE is super easy mode so getting through it fast as possible is "meta" or is winning the game within the game that isn't really a game because it's just an objective in the accomplishing goals in the actual game.

[Maarius]

They haven't mentioned any sort of new instance content or revamp of the old.

If they want tank abs healing to be a more important thing they need to change combat itself which I don't see that happening. If they only do it for the new zones then that's lame

Colin mentioned the state of encounters in the new maps AND new challenging content, just read the quote above. For reference:

That said the point I really wanted to make in the live stream was the issue with the combat system in PvE isn't the combat system. It's that the mobs and encounters we have provided so far very rarely allow/encourage you to make use of the combat system as intended. There are some exceptions, but one of our goals with HoT is to help allow more room for players to experience the full range of the combat system in PvE. From the common world mobs up to the challenging group content we will talk about later, we are asking our design team to design encounters in PvE more focused on using the system we have built.
Hope that helps a bit! - CJ

so no, they don't have to change combat and they don't want to. They have to and will change encounters so that we have to use our skills in the most effective way to be successful.

People already use all kinds of builds (not only damage-zerkers) in sPvP and WvW, because the human enemies urge you to play that way. Everyone who uses blast finisher in water fields heals his allies (VERY effectively), for example.