ret paladin vs ww monk

[Pandragon]

From a raiding perspective, which one of these specs would be of benefit to have in a raiding team?

speaking as a mythic raiding WW monk. Go with the paladin.

[Skylarking]

speaking as a mythic raiding WW monk. Go with the paladin.

Can you explain why?

[Super Kami Dende]

I pull pretty respectable numbers as Ret, Usually Mages/Hunters/Warriors beat me in even gear, other classes tend to be around the same as me give or take 1-2k

[Pandragon]

Can you explain why?

We have virtually no raid utility. It takes twice the effort to do half the dps of other classes. We are only good on a couple fights in any given raid. Our aoe sucks. Our single target is mediocre. Only good thing is our cleave, but only of the extra mobs live a decent amount of time.

[TomatoBisque]

Stop spreading this "Ret has good cleave" myth, the big cleave fight in HFC (High Council) is our worst fight by a significant margin

[Ryethe]

Rolling either is going to be painful. Plate gear is better put towards DKs and Warriors. Conq better put towards Warlocks and SPs. Prot is almost certainly better for warriors and hunters. Leather for your boomkins and rogues.

Either one is a rough path. The one saving grace could be utility if you don't run multiple holy paladins. Sacs are good.

[Colmadero]

I'm not entirely sure why everybody says that Ret AoE is THAT bad. I mean, I main a ret and I'm constantly top of the meters. Am I just raiding with bads?

[Ryethe]

I'm not entirely sure why everybody says that Ret AoE is THAT bad. I mean, I main a ret and I'm constantly top of the meters. Am I just raiding with bads?

Can think of a few things:
1) you have substantially more gear
2) your guild has a low amount of gear and you are still using T17 which had good sustained aoe compared to other T17 specs.
3) packs are very large (ie trash).

You should generally be beaten by other classes though with better on demand AoE.

2 target cleave you should DEFINITELY lose.

[Korshay]

From a raiding perspective, which one of these specs would be of benefit to have in a raiding team?

Ret pal is my main and I'm 8/13H. We're middle of the road single target DPS for Iron Reaver, Fel Lord, etc. Our AoE is so-so.

http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T18N.html for reference, if you haven't seen it yet.

[skulldelight]

Coming from a WW, probably Ret. WW's are fun, but it's hard to keep up with other classes later on, personally I feel like I'm doing very well for my spec (pretty above average parses for every fight) but in mythic rn, i've been around 9th~ on the meters except for Council. I could probably pull it up another spot or two but it's difficult to stay on par with other classes in equal gear.

[ThePants999]

Let's make sure we properly distinguish between cleave and AoE.

If we're talking a fight like Council, where there's the opportunity to damage 2 or 3 targets for a sustained period of time, Ret is pretty much the worst spec in the game. You still don't spec FV, cos you want the burst for sub-30% phases, so our "cleave" consists of rolling Censure on multiple targets, the occasional EDS proc, and maybe 20% extra on Judgment from Glyph of Double Jeopardy. The sub-10% aggregate DPS increase we get from 2 targets is nothing compared to the 40% a windwalker gets from SEF (or 65% with 3 targets).

If we're talking actual AoE, i.e. a fight like Assault, we're OK.

[jimby]

2/13 Mythic ret here. We can be top 2-3 on straight single target fights with 4pc t18. Any fight with sustained aoe were up there with locks but not nearly as good as rogues. cleave fights were dead last and probably should be sat. We also bring very good utility with bops and sacs. Don't raid with a WW so can't give my full opinion but it seems like they are middle of the pack at best and don't bring much to the raid.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

Unless you are in a top mythic guild there is no reason not bring a 'quality' ret. A shitty player won't be worth a raid spot no matter what class they play

This, rather have a good Ret, WW or Enhc, than a mediocre Warr/Rogue/DK.

But still, you would have more success going for the 3 latter classes, Rogues especially, will always be useful until they nerf Feint. Even in situations where Rogues are tuned to be the bottom of the Dps (usually the case at the beginning of every expansion), they are still good just because of that spell.