We have the best raid utility.

[Pandragon]

when things look darkest for our class. Remember this. For progression raids we have the best utility. Time. We can reset boss fights if its a wipe before the entire raid dies, and save the raid from having to run all the way back. =]

just something I had on my mind. lol

[Tibbets]

nice troll man...that ban button is easy to push..

[Monkioh]

It's not a troll. Being able to reset a boss saves your raid a lot of time and it's really easy to underestimate what that can do for your guild's progression. If you raid on a very limited schedule, any time saved is extremely valuable. This is especially true if your raiders use Augment Runes or if the boss you're working on has a particularly long run back like Tyrant Velhari. While this kind of utility won't help you once you're in combat with the boss, being able to pull the boss more quickly and more often is arguably as valuable as other kinds of utility.

[Deleted]

Except other classes can do same thing?

[Pandragon]

nice troll man...that ban button is easy to push..

obviously you havent seen how useful this is to a progression guild. my raid leader will even tell me to reset the boss when a couple people mess up and its going to be a wipe, or just a pain in the ass to try and continue.

Except other classes can do same thing?

no they cant. We are the only class that can taunt the boss and hop out of the room to reset the boss. Idk if Demonology locks still have their taunt, but its tied to metamorphosis anyways.

[Babylonius]

I second this, on a boss like Fel Lord Zakuun who was bugged last night when we attempted him, being able to reset rather than run Al the way back saved us several minutes. When we discovered I was able to reset maidens, or blast furnace, or blqckhand, it saved us huge amounts of time.

[TrollShaman]

I still remember during Iron Maidens prog, I was absent for a day and as soon as I came back, my guild misses my ability to reset the fight :P

Besides saving time it also saves gold for both the guild (repairs) and the players (consumables)!

[Monkioh]

Except other classes can do same thing?

Hunters and Rogues can stay alive to help rez the raid, but it still requires everyone else to die. That's not nearly as efficient as being able to just instantly reset the boss.

[Tradu]

Sorry, but as WW I'd rather have some utility that directly helps kill bosses rather than something that "only" saves a bit of time(especially because both BrM and MW can also do this), because WW DPS definitely isn't something worth bringing over other classes currently(and outside of early Highmaul and late SoO hasn't been in the past either)
I'm not denying that it's useful, but it's not something that gets you a raid spot over other people, in-combat utility does that(or actual good DPS)

[Pandragon]

Sorry, but as WW I'd rather have some utility that directly helps kill bosses rather than something that "only" saves a bit of time(especially because both BrM and MW can also do this), because WW DPS definitely isn't something worth bringing over other classes currently(and outside of early Highmaul and late SoO hasn't been in the past either)
I'm not denying that it's useful, but it's not something that gets you a raid spot over other people, in-combat utility does that(or actual good DPS)

yeah i know...look...we were doing our heroic clear last night, and i was looking at my 42k dps while everyone else was 60k+, and the only thing that makes me feel useful was when the raid leader would tell me to reset the fight. cause some of the other raiders screwed up.

[Buildapanda]

Being the only monk in my raid group is so fun.

[Zulatomten]

What is this wipe recovery utility?
Is it Trancendance?

[Tradu]

What is this wipe recovery utility?
Is it Trancendance?

Yes. You can drop it outside boss areas before the pull, and if the try goes to shit, you can taunt the boss and port out to reset.

[Deleted]

Sorry, but as WW I'd rather have some utility that directly helps kill bosses rather than something that "only" saves a bit of time

Why? It's major. 20-50% more pulls per night on a long corpse run. If you raid 3-4 nights a week you only get 1-2 progress nights and you need all the time you can get. It's a utility that in the long run could be the difference between cutting edge or not. Or X amount of ranks if you raid for world/server ranks.

[Tradu]

Why? It's major. 20-50% more pulls per night on a long corpse run. If you raid 3-4 nights a week you only get 1-2 progress nights and you need all the time you can get. It's a utility that in the long run could be the difference between cutting edge or not. Or X amount of ranks if you raid for world/server ranks.

Because it's not something that impacts the individual pull. It's something that works around shitty rez locations on Blizzards part. Resetting the boss is the same kind of utility as warlock summon stones, and warlocks have other utility on top of that.
I am NOT denying that it's useful. I'm saying that it's not helping anybody pretending that it's actually going to get the WW a raid spot, when WW has historically had fuckall utility(other classes do soaking much better than us) and our DPS is middle of the pack at best(discounting once again late SoO with stupid ilevels and the first few days of Highmaul)

[Deleted]

Because it's not something that impacts the individual pull. It's something that works around shitty rez locations on Blizzards part. Resetting the boss is the same kind of utility as warlock summon stones, and warlocks have other utility on top of that.
I am NOT denying that it's useful. I'm saying that it's not helping anybody pretending that it's actually going to get the WW a raid spot, when WW has historically had fuckall utility(other classes do soaking much better than us) and our DPS is middle of the pack at best(discounting once again late SoO with stupid ilevels and the first few days of Highmaul)

If you don't see the value in more pulls per night, then I can't convince you. QQing at being middle of the pack on damage with reasonable utility is.... strange logic. Also bad for soaking? 75 talent / Zen Med / ToK? I've been on black hole duty as a mistweaver, and could easily mop the floor also. And thats without Zen Med for that spec. You seem to just be saying "above average or riot?"

[Tradu]

If you don't see the value in more pulls per night, then I can't convince you. QQing at being middle of the pack on damage with reasonable utility is.... strange logic. Also bad for soaking? 75 talent / Zen Med / ToK? I've been on black hole duty as a mistweaver, and could easily mop the floor also. And thats without Zen Med for that spec. You seem to just be saying "above average or riot?"

I DO see the value in it. I'm saying that it does NOT make up for lack of in-combat utility. WW does not have "reasonable" utility. I never said bad at soaking, just that while we can soak things, other classes do it better(because of immunities). Yes, I'm saying WW should either do above average DPS or get some actual in-combat utility. Currently WW does below average DPS on every type of fight except 2-3 target cleave, and even on that(our supposed "niche"), we're getting beaten or at least matched by other classes. It's not even necessarily an issue with Windwalker having too little utility, it could just as well be everybody else having too much.
Why would you use a Windwalker to soak something when you could just bring a hunter/mage that could do the soaking, be ranged(which in and of itself is a huge benefit) and do more damage?
Now, it's not something that's costing me personally my raid spot, it just really sucks to play my spec at a higher level than other people play theirs only to get the same(or worse) rewards out of it. It also sucks hearing from people I talk to that they're getting benched because WW just doesn't bring anything unique. I mean, for 2-3 target cleave, you could bring an Arms warrior instead and they'd do just as much damage(or more, which is quite likely) while also bringing Rallying Cry.

[Monkioh]

Because it's not something that impacts the individual pull. It's something that works around shitty rez locations on Blizzards part. Resetting the boss is the same kind of utility as warlock summon stones, and warlocks have other utility on top of that.
I am NOT denying that it's useful. I'm saying that it's not helping anybody pretending that it's actually going to get the WW a raid spot, when WW has historically had fuckall utility(other classes do soaking much better than us) and our DPS is middle of the pack at best(discounting once again late SoO with stupid ilevels and the first few days of Highmaul)

I think a strong argument could be made that getting in more pulls far outweighs one person doing slightly more dps. Most bosses in this tier aren't really tight dps checks, but fights where you just have to understand the mechanics. Getting those mechanics memorized or at least familiar simply takes practice. Bringing in a DK to replace the Windwalker won't suddenly make the boss fall over if people are still failing to basic boss mechanics.

[Tradu]

I think a strong argument could be made that getting in more pulls far outweighs one person doing slightly more dps. Most bosses in this tier aren't really tight dps checks, but fights where you just have to understand the mechanics. Getting those mechanics memorized or at least familiar simply takes practice. Bringing in a DK to replace the Windwalker won't suddenly make the boss fall over if people are still failing to basic boss mechanics.

That still doesn't justify Windwalker not having any in-combat utility beyond decent(not top-tier) soaking, as well as mediocre at best DPS. I'm not saying you're wrong, mind you. More pulls are definitely a significant benefit to the raid(but also not unique to Windwalker, and not even always possible if Transcendence is being used for an actual boss mechanic)

[Monkioh]

That still doesn't justify Windwalker not having any in-combat utility beyond decent(not top-tier) soaking, as well as mediocre at best DPS. I'm not saying you're wrong, mind you. More pulls are definitely a significant benefit to the raid(but also not unique to Windwalker, and not even always possible if Transcendence is being used for an actual boss mechanic)

Fair. Windwalkers are on the lower end of the melee totem pole. Unfortunately, I wouldn't expect any big changes for the rest of this expansion. Devs have seemingly checked out until next year.