Legion Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Deleted]

Off-topic, I really hope next build adds more achievements so we can see where the different artifact skins come from.

If I recall correctly, they said the 'corrupted' tier of skins was from PvP rewards, did they not? So we already have an idea about that one.

[emilylorange]

Oh, I'm very much in favor of their current gearing system for balance.

More what I meant is stuff like split clears probably keeps a fair amount away from trying to bring in a great guild.

It's a myriad of issues keeping people from making the leap to mythic. A lot of people will cite time commitment, and that's a valid issue, especially as the population ages out of college and into the adult world with more real life commitments.

But a lot of people will also cite the attitude, perceived or real, of the mythic community as being a hindrance. Which I won't fault them for. A large consideration in my decision to quit earlier this fall was the fact that I had several people in my raid team on ignore - including the MT - because they were insufferable twits (or maybe I'm an insufferable twit and they're all fine, that's possible too). If you don't enjoy the company of your group in general, it's very hard to sell someone on the idea of being in that group for 10-16 hours a week to do progression, plus additional time to grind out stuff like the targetable legendaries.

[Deleted]

3000 page hype! ... Go home your drunk.

[Krazzorx]

If I recall correctly, they said the 'corrupted' tier of skins was from PvP rewards, did they not? So we already have an idea about that one.

That might be a relatively average rule to go by, but if you look at WW, there is no corrupted fist weapon. And obviously death knights, spriest and warlocks they all look corrupted.

- - - Updated - - -

Positive thought of the day: counting from Legion announcement, we are possibly 1/2 way till 7.0 ptr pre patch.

Hype!

[emilylorange]

Positive thought of the day: counting from Legion announcement, we are possibly 1/2 way till 7.0 ptr pre patch.

Hype!

I actually find that depressing - you might have just talked me out of resubbing this afternoon. lol

[Arbs]

I actually find that depressing - you might have just talked me out of resubbing this afternoon. lol

Why did you expect it to come out sooner? PTR pre patch could be March.

[emilylorange]

Why did you expect it to come out sooner? PTR pre patch could be March.

Oh, you know, I was actually in my brain counting from patch 6.2 - which, if were were halfway there, would be another 6 months or so. lol

Okay I am less bereft now.

....wait PTR pre-patch?

I AM A ROLLERCOASTER OF EMOTIONS

[Lahis]

Why did you expect it to come out sooner? PTR pre patch could be March.

March?


That's way too goddamn soon. They don't need 6 months of PTR when beta realms are up.

[Baconeggcheese]

tbh I'll take a system that benefits the majority of playstyles over a system designed around people who think setting limits on play isn't a matter of at least some personal responsibility.

Does it benefit a majority? Because it seems like instead of having a focus and just making the game amazing there instead they're shooting to just make everyone unhappy that benefits none of the play styles by spreading everything too thin.

On the personal responsibility front... its a matter of what your goals are. If you're shooting for world rank 1, then the rules are set by what your peers are doing. You can't not do splits and still realistically compete for world ranks.

It'd be wonderful if the entire high end raiding community got together and decided on some self imposed rules, but that's not going to happen any time soon. Which is why "the race" has largely been dead since wrath and you see lots of guilds burning themselves out trying.

I'm more pressed about Blizzard's decisions regarding server population and cross-realm lockouts that heavily affect mythic recruitment more than I'm worried about dudes running 6 raids a week for gear -

Yeah I think in a perfect world all realms would be connected and they'd have zones splinter when they reach a player cap like in swtor. They definitely didn't accomplish what they needed to while they were still actively connecting realms.

And yes, the splits problem is absolutely a concentrated niche problem at the tippy top afaik, which is why I'm not optimistic on seeing anything done about it any time soon. I was surprised that watcher even mentioned it during the blizzcon Q&A.

I think they have the same problem my own guild had when we had conversations about it in that no one could come up with a good solution that didn't somehow potentially negatively affect people who aren't normally affected by splits. Personal loot doesn't even work as a solution anymore either because they're making it so when you can trade personal loot after a certain point, which will just mean that it'll offset when you can start funneling gear but won't stop people from doing splits.

But a lot of people will also cite the attitude, perceived or real, of the mythic community as being a hindrance.

It's kinda sad, because that perception makes it real just not at the level they think it happens at.

I found there's this huge hump you have to get over where toxic players are concentrated around the more average raid groups and once you get over that hill and get into one of the actual guilds that these people think they're emulating its a far more pleasant experience.

Very real problem though, because who wants to wade through shitty organization after shitty organization until they find one that works for them. You already get enough of that IRL to have to deal with it in a game.

[Lahis]

It's kinda sad, because that perception makes it real just not at the level they think it happens at.

I found there's this huge hump you have to get over where toxic players are concentrated around the more average raid groups and once you get over that hill and get into one of the actual guilds that these people think they're emulating its a far more pleasant experience.

Very real problem though, because who wants to wade through shitty organization after shitty organization until they find one that works for them. You already get enough of that IRL to have to deal with it in a game.

In short: people are fucking assholes, and not worth dealing with in large groups.

[Raiju]

tbh I'll take a system that benefits the majority of playstyles over a system designed around people who think setting limits on play isn't a matter of at least some personal responsibility.

There is a limit - but when it affects a large mass of players (which even at 1-5% of population, is what mythic raiders are), it is technically on Blizzards head. It's the role of a game designer to impose limits that foster good gameplay. Obviously if they don't care about people dieharding it as long as the money rolls in that's a different question, but that's not really the case here I feel.

Needless to say Blizzard is testing the waters for mythic not being near as 'competitive' as it's currently considered. I don't agree with the way they're doing it but I can see why it's an admirable goal.

[Rtrain]

While I have no objections, keep in mind that this has trade-offs.

Making a gear-based system means that everyone else not in that top tier of players gain power over time and can overcome their issues through gear acquisition.

Relying more heavily on skill-checks means they will have to ('have to' meaning, historically has been the case) issue nerfs periodically to mechanics to help people along and justify the existence of the raid.

People say they want super-hard difficulty that only the best can complete up to the point they realize that doesn't include them.

I think the gear/skill issue is a non factor right now. I think the ilvl tuning is more of a problem and fixing splits can help solve that. The last boss requiring everyone to be fully mythic geared really makes it a challenge to overgear. If top guilds are going in with a less expected ilvl the bosses hp can be toned down a bit, letting you actually out gear the fight instead of just meeting the requirements or killing it undergeared.

I'm in the minority that enjoys split raiding. But it's hard to find a guild with 20 good players on mains, it's much harder to find a guild with people who also know how to play alts. Add in finding a guild that suits your own personal desires and it's not easy finding a guild anymore...

[emilylorange]

Does it benefit a majority? Because it seems like instead of having a focus and just making the game amazing there instead they're shooting to just make everyone unhappy that benefits none of the play styles by spreading everything too thin.

I think there may be a conflation of issues here. I would agree that WoD's end game benefits no one and creates burnout. I don't agree that making alt-gearing easier must implicitly be bad for everyone. LK at both tails was pretty easy on alts (Naxx/GDKP/badges/10mans), but had clear limitations that stopped the behaviors you're focused on (legendaries only came out of 25 man, most 10 man gear was not BiS outside of some trinket balance problems).

Though LK did have exactly what I was describing earlier - the limited attempt system meant the top guilds would learn mechanics on alts before swapping to mains to down it.

On the personal responsibility front... its a matter of what your goals are. If you're shooting for world rank 1, then the rules are set by what your peers are doing. You can't not do splits and still realistically compete for world ranks.

It'd be wonderful if the entire high end raiding community got together and decided on some self imposed rules, but that's not going to happen any time soon. Which is why "the race" has largely been dead since wrath and you see lots of guilds burning themselves out trying.

What's interesting is if Blizzard puts these limitations in you have people that complain they should be able to grind themselves to death if they should so choose, stop ruining the game blizzzzzzzzzzzard

Yeah I think in a perfect world all realms would be connected and they'd have zones splinter when they reach a player cap like in swtor. They definitely didn't accomplish what they needed to while they were still actively connecting realms.

Maybe now that they had discontinued reporting sub count, they will make a real effort towards meaningful merges and similar actions that help low/med servers - and the stuck-on-heroic-because-not-enough-people-for-mythic guilds on them.

I think they have the same problem my own guild had when we had conversations about it in that no one could come up with a good solution that didn't somehow potentially negatively affect people who aren't normally affected by splits. Personal loot doesn't even work as a solution anymore either because they're making it so when you can trade personal loot after a certain point, which will just mean that it'll offset when you can start funneling gear but won't stop people from doing splits.

It becomes a question of trade offs. Someone's always going to be unhappy with the results. It becomes a question of do you make a certain group unhappy or do you make everyone mildly irritated.

It's kinda sad, because that perception makes it real just not at the level they think it happens at.

I found there's this huge hump you have to get over where toxic players are concentrated around the more average raid groups and once you get over that hill and get into one of the actual guilds that these people think they're emulating its a far more pleasant experience.

The thing is the 'more average' raid groups are by definition what your potential recruits are going to be dipping their toes in, when they try to step up.

And whether or not it is as prevalent as perception, the more obnoxious people are always those you remember - and for some reason it seems like they are the ones that hang on through everything while the decent people quit.

Very real problem though, because who wants to wade through shitty organization after shitty organization until they find one that works for them. You already get enough of that IRL to have to deal with it in a game.

Put this to music and it is the anthem of Sargeras-US.

[Kraineth]

The most reasonable solution if they don't want to hurt lower progressed guilds is - just put Heroic and Mythic on the same lockout again (possibly even put Normal on the same shared lockout), and let the RL switch difficulties on a per boss basis. Granted, they would have to pop up an error message if you try to switch difficulty to Mythic when there are >20 people in the raid instance, but that shouldn't be that big of a deal. A shared lockout helps high end guilds, because it reduces the scope and benefit of split runs and the burn out factor from killing different versions of the same boss every week. It also has benefits for lesser progressed guilds, in that it gives them options on how to attack a progression path. For example, if you're stuck on Mythic Gorefiend, instead of basically being stuck there until you figure out a way to beat it, you could instead do that boss on Heroic then work on other Mythic bosses that follow it. Sure, a shared lockout reduces the amount of gear people can get, but it affects everyone equally across the board, and I don't necessarily think that a slower gearing and content consumption path is a bad thing for the game.

This will never fly so long as stuff like Crystallized Fel is in the game. My guild finally stopped needing to kill Heroic Archimonde every week last week since we finally got everyone's ring maxxed out. This would have been an absolute nightmare to do if we could only kill Archimonde in mythic each week.

I also don't think that you understand how beneficial split raids will still be with that sort of change. If I remember correctly my guild killed the first 3 bosses on mythic week 1, that leaves the overwhelming majority of the good loot in heroic mode where you can still do splits.

I don't agree with your idea at all. Being able to skip mythic bosses you don't like undermines the integrity of gatekeeper bosses like Gorefiend. Seperate lockout for heroic and mythic are the best thing to happen to hardcore raiding.

[emilylorange]

I think the gear/skill issue is a non factor right now. I think the ilvl tuning is more of a problem and fixing splits can help solve that. The last boss requiring everyone to be fully mythic geared really makes it a challenge to overgear. If top guilds are going in with a less expected ilvl the bosses hp can be toned down a bit, letting you actually out gear the fight instead of just meeting the requirements or killing it undergeared.

Last boss requiring everyone be 'fully mythic' or 'BiS' then makes the problem luck-based. Are you on a tier set that never drops, but your competitor has a better balance and everyone got their 4 piece before you? Well, sucks to be you.

There is a limit - but when it affects a large mass of players (which even at 1-5% of population, is what mythic raiders are), it is technically on Blizzards head. It's the role of a game designer to impose limits that foster good gameplay.

And if those limitations negatively affect the other 99-95% of people? Who's responsible then? Because 'good gameplay' is not as black and white as that.

A complete hypothetical.
Imagine if you could copy your toon on a special realm (like the tournament realms) for a minor fee.

I feel like, despite what people claim, loot drops are a large motivating factor to raiding. While this would be a more 'fair' and valid race, I'm not convinced that "the thrill" is enough to motivate a significant number of people, especially after the 'world first' or 'top ten' places have been claimed. Maybe if you could bring your character over to the live servers - or their rewards - after the tier is over, as in Diablo.

But in general I feel like the question discounts the power of the skinner box. And no, I wouldn't pay an additional fee for it, but I admit I'm 100% not the customer this would be targeted to.

[Wow]

I am assuming we will atleast see a build this week, if not then I also dont expect a build till 2016 so here is hoping.

Which would mean the basically wasted a month great sign for legion wasting time and still in alpha...

PTR pre patch could be March.

Lol no

[Avikur]

I'm pretty sure there will be a build this week, it's been nearly 2 weeks since the last one. I hope if they do they release the beta this week with the 1st wave of invites and all specs are playable

[Deleted]

Needless to say Blizzard is testing the waters for mythic not being near as 'competitive' as it's currently considered. I don't agree with the way they're doing it but I can see why it's an admirable goal.

Besides a line of text saying that the new CMs will drop raid quality gear, we've no information on what Blizzard is going to do with the end game design in Legion. Even if the new CMs will drop raid quality gear, which difficulty do they mean? If it is mythic difficulty gear, they still wont include tier sets or other vanity and prestige stuff which is mythic raiding all about after all.

New CMs will be complementing end game for mythic raiders and not replace it. It will only replace raiding for the 5 good people inside a top >100 mythic "progress" scrub guild, not to mention all the other people who cry for harder content but apperantly have no time to play it until they realize that they've to progress inside the new CMs also.

[Baconeggcheese]

I think there may be a conflation of issues here. I would agree that WoD's end game benefits no one and creates burnout. I don't agree that making alt-gearing easier must implicitly be bad for everyone. LK at both tails was pretty easy on alts (Naxx/GDKP/badges/10mans), but had clear limitations that stopped the behaviors you're focused on (legendaries only came out of 25 man, most 10 man gear was not BiS outside of some trinket balance problems).

I don't believe they made alt-gearing specifically easier, they made gearing period easier. You're drowning in gear fairly early on into content if you put even the mildest bit of effort into the game, which I don't see as healthy for the game or any particular playstyle in it.

Even during wrath you could not gear up as quickly as you do today, it's fairly trivial today to get a character fully geared and raid ready. The only people that really benefits are brand new players playing catch up, but even then I'd argue it hurts the game more than it helps.

What's interesting is if Blizzard puts these limitations in you have people that complain they should be able to grind themselves to death if they should so choose, stop ruining the game blizzzzzzzzzzzard

Of course, if blizzard breathes people have something to say about it because there's millions of players who all want different things. There are people who *want* to raid 7 days a week and day raid with 7 split runs every day forever. They tend to be the more successful guilds at doing that sort of thing as well, because they don't burn out since they genuinely enjoy doing it. And of course there will be the people who think people should have the right to do those things even if they don't necessarily do that themselves.

It would be nice if people could do whatever they wanted and there were separate rankings to go along with different styles of play, but that's not how we do things as far as guild rankings are concerned.

Maybe now that they had discontinued reporting sub count, they will make a real effort towards meaningful merges and similar actions that help low/med servers - and the stuck-on-heroic-because-not-enough-people-for-mythic guilds on them.

Maybe? I feel like they had more incentive to make those numbers look better when they were still visible than now.

I feel like they won't do much of anything about server pops in regards to mythic. If you're a mildly serious mythic raider you've already known that server transferring is a regular part of your life for years if you need to find a guild. The only ways around that are mass mergers / connected realms or them removing or trivializing the cost of server transfers which I don't see happening any time soon.

I think an absolute best case scenario would be them allowing us to use the WoW token to buy other services that way players could buy them with gold while someone else technically pays for it.

It becomes a question of trade offs. Someone's always going to be unhappy with the results. It becomes a question of do you make a certain group unhappy or do you make everyone mildly irritated.

Well that goes back to my first point of having a focus and just making the game amazing there. Blizzard tends to choose the everyone be mildly irritated route as opposed to just making the one area focused on being the best it can be and then people either enjoy it or not.

Though in regards to splits specifically its admittedly a very niche problem. Hopefully it stays that way and doesn't eventually trickle down like other things do.

The thing is the 'more average' raid groups are by definition what your potential recruits are going to be dipping their toes in, when they try to step up.

And whether or not it is as prevalent as perception, the more obnoxious people are always those you remember - and for some reason it seems like they are the ones that hang on through everything while the decent people quit.

Ofc, it's no different than the workforce, there's a lot more bad managers than there are good ones, there's a lot more bad guild leaders and officers than there are good ones. And people typically care about themselves and see everyone as holding them back from greatness.

Really I think the problem there is just that blizzard has no systems in place that promote camaraderie. It's all just left up to the community, which is a horrendous idea.

In short: people are fucking assholes, and not worth dealing with in large groups.

People left to their own devices are selfish / assholes, you can put systems in place that change behavior though.

They just gotta hire some psychologists and go to town.

[Tiberria]

This will never fly so long as stuff like Crystallized Fel is in the game. My guild finally stopped needing to kill Heroic Archimonde every week last week since we finally got everyone's ring maxxed out. This would have been an absolute nightmare to do if we could only kill Archimonde in mythic each week.

I also don't think that you understand how beneficial split raids will still be with that sort of change. If I remember correctly my guild killed the first 3 bosses on mythic week 1, that leaves the overwhelming majority of the good loot in heroic mode where you can still do splits.

I don't agree with your idea at all. Being able to skip mythic bosses you don't like undermines the integrity of gatekeeper bosses like Gorefiend. Seperate lockout for heroic and mythic are the best thing to happen to hardcore raiding.

You were able to skip bosses on Heroic from ICC to the end of MoP. It never created a lot of problems. Higher end guilds wouldn't do it anyway, because WowProgress had a ranking protocol in place where if you skipped bosses, subsequent boss kills only counted for 1/4 of their value until you killed the bosses you skipped leading up to it (and then went to full value only once you did that). The ability to choose bosses is a perfectly reasonable structure to help more casual and lower raid hour guilds. Separate heroic and mythic lockouts are the #1 mistake that they made in WoD when it comes to hardcore raiding, and probably the #1 cause of increased burnout. Even for guilds that don't do split runs, a lot more felt it necessary to reclear heroic for several weeks, forcing you to use a chunk of your allocated raid time to reclear the same boss multiple times that week, and forcing you to reclear content that was essentially trivial to any guild into Mythic.

Cystallized Fel is a bad example. It's one of the most poorly implemented things they have put in in awhile, and I'm astonished that they still have yet to provide a solution to being able to upgrade offspec rings (outside of suck it up and wait 20 weeks before you can start upgrading your offspec rings). They would have to tune future similar mechanics around a shared lockout if they were to implement it. However, I think they said they weren't doing a legendary questline again anyway. Plus, even if they implemented my idea, you can still get Fel in Normal Mode.