Elemental rotation 6.2

[Rhinox]

I complained a lot initially about switching from Echo to EM, but after playing with it for a few weeks its fine. Flame shock lasts like 110 seconds now it isn't hard to get a 2x EF UF shock up.

What fights do you use Echo, and what fights do you use EM?

[Deleted]

I only use EM on Fel Lord and Gorefiend. It's most likely worth it (from a pure rankings PoV) on Tyrant as well just for the last phase, I just like echo's flexibility to refresh dots without tearing my hair out. Also worth it on Kormok if you know your second EQ isn't gonna tick more than once on hands. Arguable on Reaver.

[extrimity]

i use echo regardless, cause u never loose a LVB that way which is so high on your total dmg. cause Rng movement etc. and ofc the 2x lvb opener into UE and FS <3

Edit: besides EM+lust and set proc brings u under GCD so its a waste and need to be used outside of lust

[siccora]

Hello there. I just play around with my Shaman as an elemental one and i REALLY dig it. Yesterday i fooled around with the classtrinket and the Flame Shock "opener" to see the actual numbers with my gear. i wanted to see how i open the fight and what i do when the first flame shock is rolling.

so my focus was on the ticking damage from the debuff.

when i just cast flame shock i have a ticking damage from 3152 with no other buffs up.

with Unleash Flame the tick is 4413
with 2x elemental fusion the tick is 5674
and with both it is 7943

so normally i would open with unleash flame (15 sec cooldown UF) cast my lightning bolt (13 sec cooldown UF), put flame shock (12 sec cooldown UF) on the target cast 2 lava bursts (9 sec cooldown UF) and pop ascendance and continue to spam lava burst until my unleash flame is ready again. then i cast a new flame shock on that target to have a fully buffed tick rolling. now i think that i waste some damage here.

i really dont know the REAL numbers because i am just a just-for-fun elemental shaman. but when i say that each second the debuff ticks i have in 15 seconds 14 x 4413 = 61.782 damage (no crits or multistrikes etc.) until i can put a new flame shock on the target.

but when i just cast a normal flame shock at the pull the target i can recast a fully buffed flame shock after 6 seconds. so if my math is somewhere right, i have 6 seconds of a normal flame shock tick. that is 5 x 3152 = 15.760 and after that i can put the fully buffed debuff on the target. my opener here would be FS, LvB, LvB (UF should be ready now), FS, ascendance and FvB....my time frame is still the 15 seconds. i suggest that i have a fully buffed flame shock rolling for 8 seconds in that 15 seconds time frame.

can i say that i have 8 x 7943 = 63.544 + 15.760 = 79.304 vs. 61.782 of FS ticking damage?

so in short
is it better to pre cast UF of wait until i have 2x fusion up and my flame shock CD is ready again?

[futter]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-class-trinket

[siccora]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-class-trinket

well since there is no real proof in this thread, i have to do the math by myself deeper because only somebody says "do this and this" does not mean this is right.

i think, and have to check it by myself, that it is smarter to wait for a fully buffed flame shock and then pop ascendance.

[FalcFalcFalc]

The difference is about 400-600 dps at the end of the fight.

[freddy090909]

well since there is no real proof in this thread, i have to do the math by myself deeper because only somebody says "do this and this" does not mean this is right.

i think, and have to check it by myself, that it is smarter to wait for a fully buffed flame shock and then pop ascendance.

Only if running echo would it be practical for you to wait for the buffed flame shock before ascendance. And if you do that, you will want to open with two unbuffed lava bursts. Without echo, waiting for the buffed flame shock would lose you so much sync on ascendance+em+ring, it would be crazy to consider.

[binkenstein]

well since there is no real proof in this thread, i have to do the math by myself deeper because only somebody says "do this and this" does not mean this is right.

i think, and have to check it by myself, that it is smarter to wait for a fully buffed flame shock and then pop ascendance.

Can you clarify for me why there is "no real proof" in that thread, especially given the fact you said "i really dont know the REAL numbers because i am just a just-for-fun elemental shaman"

[Deleted]

well since there is no real proof in this thread, i have to do the math by myself deeper because only somebody says "do this and this" does not mean this is right.

i think, and have to check it by myself, that it is smarter to wait for a fully buffed flame shock and then pop ascendance.

There's three pages of maths and discussion in the thread, what more proof do you need? The conclusion was along the lines of; exact timing of when you start the opener depends on your haste, but as a rough guide:

-4 Totem
-3 Potion + LvB
-1.5 LvB
0 UF
1.2 FS
2.4 Ascendance + LvB spam

[siccora]

sry didnt read the next pages.

[audiosmith]

Here's my current opener - i716 3/13M with 4pc and heroic class trinket. I've adjusted into EM and the burst just feels better as an opener than having 'insurance'

My Talents:
Astral Shift
Earthgrab Totem
Totemic Projection
Elemental Mastery
Ancestral Guidance
Primal Elementalist
Elemental Fusion

I took PE recently as well, because the 10%/30% to LvB/LB is BADLY conflicting with using unleash for my flame shock buffs so it just simplifies the rotation a lot for me while giving me some good utility with Fire Ele's Empower with ascendance or just its own DPS, and I've just found out about Earth Ele's 20% dmg mitigation channel that would be great for me as I'm starting to solo the 100 normal dungeons (cleared Shadowmoon burial last night).

My Glyphs:
Flame Shock, Chain Lightning, Fire Ele (2.5min almost lines up with everything else)
Not even going to bother mentioning minor glyphs cause who cares

My Opener:
1. Unleash as soon as pull timer is up
2. Int pot right before pull, usually at 2 seconds in case people get itchy trigger fingers
3. Fire Elemental at 0.5 sec
4. Open with Flame Shock (+40 with unleash)
5. Usually straight into Ascendance, macro'd with spiritwalkers and Fire Ele's Empower channel for 5% extra dmg during ascendance - with the glyph FE lasts only slightly longer than Asc. which works well. SPAM LAVA BURST BUTTON CONSTANTLY UNTIL 12 SHIELD CHARGES.
6. As soon as I hit 12 or more shield charges, earth shock. If lucky 2pc will proc and I'll ES again to instantly hit the magic 24. That's why my number here is 12 or more - 15 may be a better number TBH though and multistrike RNG means this is a big grey area. e.g. if you shock at 15 and 2pc doesn't proc then you only need another 9 which is nice but not a big time saver so don't make any sacrifices just to hit a number as long as you shock immediately if you hit 20x.
7. Spam Lava until Ascendance is over, refreshing 2pc haste bonus with an Earth Shock, generally I will do this at 15+ or just at 20 so I can machinegun big 20stack fulminations - fairly common to get about 6x in a row sometimes.\
(note): Yes I will smash out the 20 stack fulmination shocks during ascendance til the cows come home. If Ascendance is almost over and the 4piece haste buff is more than 10-12 seconds remaining (e.g. I've hit a 20 stack shock twice and it's procced for a third) then I will save the last one for 5 seconds or something to maintain the haste buff.
--- ascendance over ---
8. Send the Fire Elemental into the main target as I'm currently of the (uninformed) opinion that 5% on ascendance is good, but pet DPS is better otherwise. The 5% could possibly still be a waste with ascendance, not sure.
9. Lava and Lightning Bolt on Lava cooldown until I have 2x Fusion and Unleash is ready
10. Drop a 40+40+40 buffed flame shock (plus I have heroic core) onto any big target that will be alive more than a minute - priority is targets with NO flame ticking already, then those with the least time remaining or my main target if it makes the most sense.
--- note on flame shock: having an unbuffed flame shock on your main DPS target isn't necessarily a bad thing if it means you can be working on higher priority activities ---

And that's basically it. From there you're just doing normal cast priority and working mechanics.
Not running Echo isn't really a problem for me as 40+40+40 flame shock buff happens when convenient and is NOT the be all and end all.
e.g. if it's more convenient to throw a 1xFusion+Unleash then listen to Shia and JUST DO IT. Even just an Unleash Flame Shock or a 1xFusion Flame Shock if Unleash is on cooldown is a GOOD THING and you can replace it later if it's convenient to do so.

As long as you have at least one of the three 40% buff abilities on it, but ideally two, then you're doing it right. All 3 is a "nice to have" not a must IMO.
That should free up your rotation a LOT and help adjust to an EM spec with uber-powerful burst every 2 minutes or so.

I'm hoping the Flame Shock Glyph should be really nice on council which is the guild's mythic progression effort right now.
Damn that Blademaster Illusion phase. Having big burst and passive healing from flame shocks may just help win it.

$0.02

[Firebug1975]

Here's my current opener - i716 3/13M with 4pc and heroic class trinket.
6. As soon as I hit 12 or more shield charges, earth shock.

Why aren't you spamming LvB until 20 stacks of LS whilst in Ascendance? Why 12?

As far as Council Mythic goes, it's pretty fun as Affliction Shaman, but I'd get out of the habit of thinking that EFx1>UF is OK. It ain't.
Besides, with 3 Flame Shocks running, it's Lava Surge heaven so you won't have a problem getting EFx2 stacks pretty quickly.

That should free up your rotation a LOT and help adjust to an EM spec with uber-powerful burst every 2 minutes or so..

Uber powerful? We talking about Ele Shaman here?

Skimmed most of your post, but yeah.. using Empower is a RESTORATION thing, it ain't a DPS thing. Fire Elementals should be set on the boss to tickle him for 1m.

Tbh mate, you should check out Zeruge + Bink's discussion regarding the opener with class trinket on another thread in this forum. Then you should go check out some guides regarding your priority (I recommend Bink's Wowhead guide), you're doing it wrong. I'm no great Shaman myself, but there's just so much wrong with what you posted..

[audiosmith]

12 stacks because 2x 12 = 24, the magic number for 2piece and 4piece ele proc

e.g. it gets to 24 ASAP for the haste buff to make the most of time in ascendance

So of course I will be maintaining the full 40-40-40 flame shocks Eventually,
Just that it is still OK or even best to put the 1-2x buffed shocks on early while your priority is on single target DPS
Your comment about surge procs agrees with this

Thanks for the feedback on Primal Elementalist - are you saying that the talent with pet on target is best, and better than unleashed fury?
Or are you referring to the standard Fire Elemental without the talent?


And I encourage you to keep an open mind, especially when people like Bink who I respect very much is unable to commit fully to getting deep into T18 changes so telling me I'm doing it "so much wrong" without being constructive is just a little frustrating.
I've read many of the guides out there, and what I've been saying doesn't contradict them except for where they don't take the new set bonuses into account.

Also - a lot of the work so far has been based on Echo, rather than Elemental Mastery which is a big switch - most top ele are running Elemental Mastery in Mythic Prog

[Deleted]

12 stacks because 2x 12 = 24, the magic number for 2piece and 4piece ele proc

e.g. it gets to 24 ASAP for the haste buff to make the most of time in ascendance

are you saying that the talent with pet on target is best

PFE allows you to concentrate on more important things and is a dps gain in most of HFC's encounters when used correctly (glyphed on fail lord for example). Unleashed Fury is quite simply worthless from a pure dps standpoint currently, UNLESS you really need it because your raid has like 10 melee dps and nobody can kill priority adds.

most top ele are running Elemental Mastery in Mythic Prog

Not on every encounter, you still want echo on at least HFA, Socrethar, Xhulhorac and Mannoroth, arguable on Tyrant (pain in the ass to maintain 2 fully buffed FS while spamming CL while being efficient without it, ofc EM is better to cheese dps on the last phase) and council (maintaining 3 fully buffed FS without echo is ass) not sure about Archimonde, probably not there.
Also depends on your progress and kill times, generally EM will keep gaining value over time with faster kill times and more gear (and ring upgrades).

[Jotaux]

Not on every encounter, you still want echo on at least ..... council (maintaining 3 fully buffed FS without echo is ass)

Maintaining 3 fully buffed flameshocks is a breeze on council. The only hard part is getting the first application of flameshock on the 3 targets. What I do is:

-10 UF
-4 FE>pot>CL on Jubei
FS on Gurtag
LvB
Drop EQ when the two are in position
Ascendance
LvB
UF
FS on Dia
normal rotation
try to get a 2xEF+UF FS on Jubei when ascendance ends
try to get a 2xEF+UF FS on Gurtag
refresh as needed.

[Deleted]

That's correct, but echo is still nice to use if you're spamming CL on gurtogg+blademaster, an because of the juggling you do early on you dont get as much benefit from EM as you otherwise would. Overall it's still probably really close and EM will win out for sure if you play perfectly and/or have convenient surge procs, esp now. During progress on the fight (aka without rings) there wasn't much point.

[audiosmith]

Jotaux has got it very right there, though are you UF there because of the talent? or is the 40% onto the flame shock alone actually worth a GCD during ascendance?

I really like the chain on pull idea, will have to steal that one

Re: Soc/Xhul I wouldn't take Echo if just for 2x quakes as even with echo I had already decided 1x quake was enough and then hit chain for shield charges to keep the 4pc up for the quake ticks etc

I suppose the really hard part about this raid tier is that everyone's got a different "best" because of different gear levels etc. as per the comment that Ele Mastery keeps scaling up with you whereas echo is powerful early but slowly starts to lose its appeal in some fights, then others, then others and for me I'm not a fan of switching out talents every fight just for a 2% boost or something rather than keeping the same groove of a certain play style (unless progression needs it of course)

Currently I'm working to try and get a good build for mythic council and then kilrogg when we get to him and EM seems to be the good thing for burst utility.

Thanks for the tip on PFE, have taken empower out of the ascendance macro now

[Firebug1975]

And I encourage you to keep an open mind, especially when people like Bink who I respect very much is unable to commit fully to getting deep into T18 changes so telling me I'm doing it "so much wrong" without being constructive is just a little frustrating.

Sorry dude, I didn't mean to come across as a dick. What I meant by saying there was 'so much wrong' with what you posted is that every time I read over your post, I'd find something else that I didn't agree with. I quoted you twice, then read more of your post and didn't have time to quote and answer them all.

I directed you to the class trinket opener discussion between Bink and Zeruge, because A. I found it helpful to me and B. I believed it would help you to get those fully buffed FS up sooner. And the reason I linked Bink's guide, was that you seem to be doing some weird stuff (to me at least) such as popping FET after combat had begun, not using LS glyph, using CL glyph on 2 targets (I assume we're talking about Mythic Council here) which again is a dps loss.

Apologies, I could've probably worded it better and/or spent a little more time explaining why I thought you were wrong.

Peace

[Jotaux]

That's correct, but echo is still nice to use if you're spamming CL on gurtogg+blademaster, an because of the juggling you do early on you dont get as much benefit from EM as you otherwise would. Overall it's still probably really close and EM will win out for sure if you play perfectly and/or have convenient surge procs, esp now. During progress on the fight (aka without rings) there wasn't much point.

I'll give echo a shot next week since your parse at my ilvl is ~2k more than mine, but I never find myself in a position where I can't refresh the flameshocks at 2xEF+UF on council.


On Kilrogg when you go down do you like EM or Echo? I was taking echo to get 20 stacks but then I lose out on EM when I get out.