The Tedium & Appeal of MMOs

[Edge-]

If not for the social and teamwork aspect MMOs are trash.

Disagree. I play most MMO's solo and still manage to enjoy the hell out of them. Some for their various gimmicks/focuses (TSW story, Tera combat, Rift character flexibility etc.), and others simply because they're mindless killing boxes where I can hop in and level/gear up some characters while Netflix/YouTube runs on my other monitor.

Hell, some like TSW I've literally played as single player RPG's for the vast majority of my time in them, and my Steam says I have roughly 170ish hours in it, at least half of which is actively playing.

[Æony]

Mhmhm to me this video explains what's wrong with most MMORPGs these days

[Tech614]

Disagree. I play most MMO's solo and still manage to enjoy the hell out of them. Some for their various gimmicks/focuses (TSW story, Tera combat, Rift character flexibility etc.), and others simply because they're mindless killing boxes where I can hop in and level/gear up some characters while Netflix/YouTube runs on my other monitor.

Hell, some like TSW I've literally played as single player RPG's for the vast majority of my time in them, and my Steam says I have roughly 170ish hours in it, at least half of which is actively playing.

You can have fun with the garbage hero engine gameplay of TSW. I will pass sir.

About the only MMO I even came close to enjoying while solo was TOR, and that is only because I love Star Wars and the bioware story telling in the vanilla script was decent. The gameplay however was still 100% garbage clunkity clunk city like all MMOs.

[Heathy]

ITT it comes down to a few things, one of them is feeling forced to play a specific mmo when your not in the mood, and playing said mmo for years on end. I've found that they are more interesting when you don't know everything.

it doesn't help that they are all mostly the same thing in a different wrapper. even so, i have become bored with one mmo only to find I enjoy learning/exploring in another.

for me at least once you know everything it loses some charm. I agree with the guy in the video above, its probably why I started playing EQ 1 just the urge to find something that is different but similar. I do just like being aimless and hoping emergent game play takes over, the slower pace is really refreshing I found, but then it goes right back to the mood your in, i'm in the mood for slower paced gameplay, with plenty of depth, if i were in the mood for more ARPG type mmo gameplay then this wouldn't be enjoyable for me atm.

The TL;DR is burnout, you have to play other mmo or other games, take breaks from your favourite mmo so you grow the urge to keep playing it. there are things that are outside of the core game features that keeps you playing a game, it might be as simple as the art style in wow's case.

[Fencers]

If you're not feeling WoW right now I cannot recommend FFXIV. Its endgame is even more blatantly meek.

I do not play World of Warcraft. Never been a huge fan of the Warcraft franchise.

Diablo is the only Blizzard franchise I truly enjoy.

The only reason I've enjoyed it as I have is due to nostalgia being an FF fan. If it wasn't for that, I'd probably actually qualify the game as shit with the main story-line(for HW that is) being a tragedy in that it's so good, yet stuffed into such a pathetic, shallow MMO experience... That's not a joke either. It's genuinely a shame how much effort was clearly put into it while everything is damn near deplorable.

I don't care about video game story telling really. Just the gameplay is what I am interested in exploring.

I played FF14 when it was first released. One of the worst MMOs I have played- and I played many before. When A Realm Reborn came out I gave it another shot and felt it was an "okay" game. Though I wasn't really grabbed by the aesthetics, themes or anything else really. Kinda got bored I suppose and didn't touch ARR after the 14 day trial or whatever it was.

That all said, I agree, the market really needs something to shake things up. All I am aware of is GW2's expansion(they seem to be taking their original formula and improving upon it so good for them) around the corner and Black Desert Online, which, while it looks promising... is yet another Korean developed MMO. We could witness the "Archeage fiasco" very easily once more.

I have played Black Desert, it's okay. I am a GW2 moderator of this forum but I am not that interested in the GW2 expansion.

Actually, I am not really that interest in 3rd wave MMORPGs or Action-MMORPGs. "Action-Combat" doesn't truly excite me from a design standpoint in the context of latency and synchronization reconciliation.

I liked Archeage. Cost of games is of no relevance to me personally. I worked for a company that ported Taiwanese MMORPGs for Western markets. So-called "Korean" MMOs are no aversion to me.

I just want thoughtful game systems. I am looking for an MMORPG to sink my teeth into, so to speak. Though I am just no finding it among 2nd and 3rd wave MMORPGs. Well, there is Eve but I don't like spaceships.

[Edge-]

You can have fun with the garbage hero engine gameplay of TSW. I will pass sir.

Wrong one, it uses Dreamforge Engine which is made by Funcom. It's still not fantastic, but I've got a solid enough rig to run it on max settings so whatever. It's not like I play for the graphics, I play for the atmosphere and the story/cutscenes.

[Daedius]

Only suggestion is to play Sandbox games where you and the community can create stuff, and not wait for the devs to release content.

[Deleted]

I myself am tired of typical themepark MMORPGs as like WoW as well.

I mainly moved to RPGs. The only MMORPG i currently play is Elder Scrolls Online, as it is f2p and supports solo playing with a large focus on open world gameplay.

For me, focusing at organized raiding and turning open world gameplay into grinds were the worst decisions blizzard ever made. While the devs talk about the world being the most interesting part in World of Warcraft, they dont really add any engaging content to it anymore.

For me, a new MMORPG could only be successfull, if it was innovative, and would be different to the mainstream blizzardish MMORPG type of game.

[Borfl]

Welcome to modern game design theory; do more loops to get rewarded to do more loops to get bigger and better rewards until the next thing comes out and you do it all over again.

MMOs are gigantic projects and no devs are going to waste their time making elaborate questing when the vast majority are simply satisfied with killing X, collecting Y, talking to Z and NEVER doing that again unless they're altaholics. If they did they'd probably only have enough time to create one leveling path and then players would cry "there's no choice in my leveling path" however, in essence, nearly every MMO gives you no choice you just have the illusion of choice.

MMOs are designed to be grindy and tedious because they have to be simple and they have to make the player feel like they're constantly rewarded or building toward a big reward otherwise the player will lose interest, and those grinds are intentionally designed to be long and timelocked so you keep paying that monthly subscription.

I think one of the biggest problems with MMOs today is the lack of social interaction. Server community is dead since everyone can hop around and go anywhere no ties or commitment to their avatar. It's good for convenience but you no longer get that sense of "hey I know that guy, he's pretty cool" or "that guys a fucking asshole, don't group with him" which made the game feel more than just a game. Today MMOs feel like overly inflated singleplayer games with boring generic quests and grinds. You don't need to interact with anyone and you don't need to build connections with people to reach your goals. MMOs are called MMOs for a reason and they're a lot more fun to play with people, especially people you like, rather than just playing alone, but it seems MMOs are designed to be as convenient, accessible, and cheap as possible.

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

Welcome to modern game design theory; do more loops to get rewarded to do more loops to get bigger and better rewards until the next thing comes out and you do it all over again.

MMOs are gigantic projects and no devs are going to waste their time making elaborate questing when the vast majority are simply satisfied with killing X, collecting Y, talking to Z and NEVER doing that again unless they're altaholics. If they did they'd probably only have enough time to create one leveling path and then players would cry "there's no choice in my leveling path" however, in essence, nearly every MMO gives you no choice you just have the illusion of choice.

MMOs are designed to be grindy and tedious because they have to be simple and they have to make the player feel like they're constantly rewarded or building toward a big reward otherwise the player will lose interest, and those grinds are intentionally designed to be long and timelocked so you keep paying that monthly subscription.

I think one of the biggest problems with MMOs today is the lack of social interaction. Server community is dead since everyone can hop around and go anywhere no ties or commitment to their avatar. It's good for convenience but you no longer get that sense of "hey I know that guy, he's pretty cool" or "that guys a fucking asshole, don't group with him" which made the game feel more than just a game. Today MMOs feel like overly inflated singleplayer games with boring generic quests and grinds. You don't need to interact with anyone and you don't need to build connections with people to reach your goals. MMOs are called MMOs for a reason and they're a lot more fun to play with people, especially people you like, rather than just playing alone, but it seems MMOs are designed to be as convenient, accessible, and cheap as possible.

Well, that was my argument concerning Vanilla WoW. A lot of people who weren't there for it(or deluding themselves) don't seem to realize why many liked it. All they can do is trumpet the superiority of modern features/mechanics; yet, the charm and magic of WoW was in forming groups, guilds, and connections in an isolated community. We often made our own fun.

This is also something developers seem to look over. Players are far better at creating content/experiences than they are. If you give them tools and scenarios versus very streamlined, narrow content you can keep your game alive and hale with much less cost to your development team. My mind is still blown at how much resources they're putting into raiding alone and yet are bleeding out by the millions but they seemingly cannot correlate the two. REALLY?!

I still argue to this day that Minecraft was the best MMO I've ever played and it was created by a dinky little group of people. That tells you something about the state of the gaming industry and perhaps how gamers are evolving.

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

I do not play World of Warcraft. Never been a huge fan of the Warcraft franchise.

Diablo is the only Blizzard franchise I truly enjoy.

I don't care about video game story telling really. Just the gameplay is what I am interested in exploring.

I played FF14 when it was first released. One of the worst MMOs I have played- and I played many before. When A Realm Reborn came out I gave it another shot and felt it was an "okay" game. Though I wasn't really grabbed by the aesthetics, themes or anything else really. Kinda got bored I suppose and didn't touch ARR after the 14 day trial or whatever it was.

I have played Black Desert, it's okay. I am a GW2 moderator of this forum but I am not that interested in the GW2 expansion.

Actually, I am not really that interest in 3rd wave MMORPGs or Action-MMORPGs. "Action-Combat" doesn't truly excite me from a design standpoint in the context of latency and synchronization reconciliation.

I liked Archeage. Cost of games is of no relevance to me personally. I worked for a company that ported Taiwanese MMORPGs for Western markets. So-called "Korean" MMOs are no aversion to me.

I just want thoughtful game systems. I am looking for an MMORPG to sink my teeth into, so to speak. Though I am just no finding it among 2nd and 3rd wave MMORPGs. Well, there is Eve but I don't like spaceships.

I sort of understand your points though I'm a little thrown off by your lack of love for action MMORPGs. That said, I have a powerful connection so latency and the likes is rarely an issue for me.

Right now GW2 is what I often recommend to people who are either new to MMOs or burnt out on the typical fanfare and that doesn't look like that's going to be changing anytime soon. I advise vehemently against FFXIV(the irony is I'm playing it currently and maxed out on several characters) and somewhat against WoW. At least WoW, again, is not too huge of a time sink to get anywhere. Even if it is a bit of a bore endgame.

- - - Updated - - -

Well...yeah. They're totally different games. Just because you like Minecraft more than WoW doesn't mean that somehow WoW is failing at being the type of game it's trying to be. It just means you like the kind of game that Minecraft is trying to be.

What it means is, during my time on Minecraft, I felt the connections I had on WoW during Vanilla and even greater because we had established economies, worlds, and cities even. It was fun and interconnected in a way that modern MMOs seem to be pushing away from more and more as time goes on. I like having proper claim to a realm and real influence on it. I think most gamers do, it makes their time on there more meaningful to them.

[Kelimbror]

*snip*

I think the problem was really a product of designing for subscription systems and not something isolated to MMOs by default. Needing to create a feedback loop in order to engage your player while making sure they never actually use the loop to transcend is sorta illogical, thus the rudimentary metaphor of a treadmill.

MMOs which design out of the scope of requiring a subscription start to make strides in directions not related to what you are describing. In fact, it's surprising that you don't heavily enjoy GW2 since most of the game is there to be enjoyed simply b/c you like the gameplay. Sure there are rewards systems, but instead of being a part of a feedback loop they are merely fringe benefits to doing the primary purpose already for the most part.

Take PvP tracks. You don't really get better and better gear like with other PvP. You do get constant reward streams though, but they don't really serve to further your purpose in that mode of progression.

Games that rely on other revenue sources are often the games that work the hardest to provide experiences that are *fun* b/c having people enjoy your game translates to higher revenue due to willfully providing it versus needing to justify time sinks so you keep giving a set amount of money on a schedule.

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

Well sure, but again...totally different games, and WoW was never similar to Minecraft. Completely different games and indeed largely completely different genres.

You liking Minecraft more doesn't say anything about the "current state of gaming" or anything, it just means that you like that genre of game more than you apparently like the "theme park" genre.

Actually the popularity of the game in question and the fact I could only find those old connections I had in an MMO through Minecraft does say something about the current state of gaming. It's very clear that we've moved away from your typical MMOs being more of a social construct and have done little to nothing in repairing the damage done by that move.

Please don't argue this with me or I'll start blowing you off. We can get technical but I'm standing by my current point. I've lost my appetite for circular arguments.

[Kelimbror]

*snip*

I'm not sure I understand the hostility. All they did was objectively state that different games are different and people liking vs. not liking two specific instances of games doesn't speak to gaming as a whole. Have MMOs moved away from arbitrary social constructs? Yes. Do you think they did that willfully without data warranting the move? No. Therefore, the players must have changed in order to precipitate something of that nature.

Minecraft, by the simplicity of design and the open nature of the content provides a wide ground for those types of experiences to be formed. MMOs have never had that luxury and instead forced you into social constructs arbitrarily. Those aren't the same thing, regardless of *feels*.

The end result being that people change, games change, but nothing larger to really draw on in this isolated scope of conversation.

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

I think the problem was really a product of designing for subscription systems and not something isolated to MMOs by default. Needing to create a feedback loop in order to engage your player while making sure they never actually use the loop to transcend is sorta illogical, thus the rudimentary metaphor of a treadmill.

MMOs which design out of the scope of requiring a subscription start to make strides in directions not related to what you are describing. In fact, it's surprising that you don't heavily enjoy GW2 since most of the game is there to be enjoyed simply b/c you like the gameplay. Sure there are rewards systems, but instead of being a part of a feedback loop they are merely fringe benefits to doing the primary purpose already for the most part.

Take PvP tracks. You don't really get better and better gear like with other PvP. You do get constant reward streams though, but they don't really serve to further your purpose in that mode of progression.

Games that rely on other revenue sources are often the games that work the hardest to provide experiences that are *fun* b/c having people enjoy your game translates to higher revenue due to willfully providing it versus needing to justify time sinks so you keep giving a set amount of money on a schedule.

Oh I agree, subscriptions are the bane of the industry. I honestly prefer TSW's episodes(expansions?) that you can buy to further your experiences with the game.

I also like GW2 BUT the catch; I'm not a huge fan of the combat. It maybe because I main a Thief but I've had difficulty getting into it and I say this with an L80. Still, like I said before, I often recommend it to new players of the genre or those burnt out by current, prevailing models.

Ignoring the two above posts, haven't read beyond their first sentences. Told you, I'm tired of it, not getting into it. Nothing to argue because you're not changing my mind, hence why it'd be circular. Pretty simple really. Saving you trouble as well.

[Kelimbror]

Oh I agree, subscriptions are the bane of the industry. I honestly prefer TSW's episodes(expansions?) that you can buy to further your experiences with the game.

I also like GW2 BUT the catch; I'm not a huge fan of the combat.

Ah, well not liking the combat is perfectly understandable. I'm guessing you want a more traditional tab target, but with the same design principles of GW2? Tbh I don't even know of other MMOs that don't use gear as the primary and dominant form of progression. I'd be curious if there were some.

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

Ah, well not liking the combat is perfectly understandable. I'm guessing you want a more traditional tab target, but with the same design principles of GW2? Tbh I don't even know of other MMOs that don't use gear as the primary and dominant form of progression. I'd be curious if there were some.

Oh no, I would love GW2 if it felt more weighty and impacting like Tera. Right now it feels too floaty if that makes any sense.

I don't know of any either off the top of my head. I personally think gear should just be for looks, strictly and all the customization is in your play-style. Stats are really, to me, a pointless concept in of themselves as there is really only one optimal way to build and everyone will follow that way - especially in a treadmill progression system.

As of course, content gets more difficult, the more you need to squeeze out of your character and the less room there is for error. Play-styles work IF, IF you're not making every other encounter a DPS race but rather about who can survive and get the job done.

[Kelimbror]

Yah, I can't really think of any. As best as I can see, games that follow the 2nd gen MMO style tend to take ALL the elements.

But one might be out there, who knows!

Some games at least put different emphasis when they use gear progression. Those games also tend to have really different design....sorta like how Warframe twists gear progression into something else entirely. That's a gear system that I really get behind, b/c it is tied into gameplay in such an intense and interesting fashion...plus crafting is heavily involved.

Similarly, there are games that unlock classes or abilities via progression....but they usually start off to restrictive and make things rather slow and unrewarding..like why I uninstalled Skyforge after 2 days.

But yeah...I think GW2 is the first game I've ever seen to actually do that and do it fairly well. Their expansions seems set to take it to the next level with that type of horizontal progression as well. Very curious to see how opening up new skills feels as a reward to gameplay which then gives you access to new gameplay. Seems like it isolates exactly why we enjoy parts of leveling and removes all the unecessary bits, namely the actual levels.

[grimsanta]

If not for the social and teamwork aspect MMOs are trash.

This is nothing new though, there has never been an MMO that I think is an objectively well designed game. It has always been the community aspect that makes or breaks them.

Clunky gameplay, lack of polish, tedious walls, etc. Basically you put mechanics like that in a non MMO and it gets a 30/100 metacritic and ran out of town. The gameplay in all MMOs sucks, so play the one you and your friends can enjoy the most.

And yet, more and more games are getting away from the social aspect of these games. WoW went from grouping up with strangers and having to coordinate things (even if it meant just getting to the dungeon) to generated groups where you never say a word. Defeats the point.

[Scyclone]

Well, WoW didn't remove social interaction. They made certain things more convenient, and people chose to simply act in an anti-social manner. Which is an interesting study on what people really value in these games, but I don't think that it's a fair attack on the game itself.

I sort of agree and disagree. People chose to act in an anti-social manner, yes, but we do that any time something becomes a matter of convenience. When was the last time you called a pizza place to order a pizza as opposed to using an app or online ordering, for example?

People remove the human element of communication naturally, when communication is no longer necessary. It is less about 'valuing' anything in a game, and more of something instinctive that I feel we all have about efficiency. I think it is, however, fair to attack the game there because it provided the tools needed to accomplish that. Without it, people would need to socialize and interact. Some will do well with it, others will not. It is the way of the world.

Daybreak recently relaunched time lapsed EQ1 and EQ2 servers. Apart from the occasional 13 year old douchebag or basement dweller, the games actually lack these 'auto-generated' group components and have began to build a social community once more. Ironically, socializing, interactivity and togetherness returned. Who would have thought?