Police Officer lives are more special, apparently.

[Deleted]

It is a deterrent. You shouldn't be committing felonies. If you do, you run the risk of being responsible for any harm caused by it. Will it seem harsh sometimes? Sure. Will the next person who thinks about filing a false report think twice about it if they know about this case? There is a good chance.

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In what world is filing a false report a minor transgression? You are taking a case already at the periphery of the felony murder rule, making an example way outside of where this case is and criticizing the result as if your example would come out the same way.

The most likely instance of a felony murder is something like a case where a bank robber is fleeing the scene and leading the police on a chase. During the chase one of the police cars hits a pedestrian and kills them. So you think the robber has no responsibility for the death of the pedestrian?

Yeah the U.S. has a prison overcrowding issue. But that is largely due to a large volume of non-violent drug offenders. The prisons aren't exactly overflowing from felony murder convictions.

Whether it is a minor transgression or not is irrelevant. It should be punishable by itself and that punishment should be the deterrent. Making someone filing a false report liable for murder is not deterrent it's barbaric. It's almost the definition of cruel and unusual punishment.

And most of all, it doesn't work! False reports are still being made and lives are needlessly ruined.

You then follow up[ with an example that just makes my point for me. Death or injury, is completely foreseeable in a high speed car chase, or even a low speed one in a populated area. That robber has clear responsibility, because it is foreseeable, yet he chooses to lead the cops on a chase anyway.

US prisons are full because some unjustified believe that being tough on crime helps as a deterrent. Insane sentences for drug offenders is the major result of this, but felony homicide is part of the same problem.

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Of course I do. However, they're mostly the same - She could not forsee that framing someone else would end in a shootout, either. If it ends in a death and she is the one who lead to the events causing the death, she is partially responsible for the deaths.

I mean it's not rocket science here.

Really, because just like the news is full of people being swatted and held at gunpoint it's also full of cops getting killed in road accidents after being called to a scene? The latter is so common and/or logical she should have foreseen it? If you believe that please don;t go into rocket science, McDonalds might have an opening for you.

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If you want to be obtuse, sure.

However, this is a very direct case of "He wouldn't be there if she didn't commit a felony." He wouldn't be out on patrol FOR HER if she hadn't committed her felony. Had he been on patrol for any other reason in that same area, she would have no tie in to the reckless driving, but BECAUSE he was out on patrol SPECIFICALLY looking for her because she had committed a felony, it is partially her fault he was killed.

Cops are on the lookout for criminals constantly, should we hold every criminal liable for every accidental cop death? He was there looking for her, because it was his job. He chose to take this job. So isn't the root cause his decision to become a cop. If he hadn't he wouldn't have been there.

These chains of events can be created anyway you like the chains can be arbitrarily long and the connections incidental. But I can see why the US has these laws, since so many people here are so willing to defend cruel and unusual punishment. At this point I'm just going to be happy I live in a sane country.

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So moral of the story: Don't lie to the police.

Got it.

The moral of the story is "Don't talk to the police. Ever!" And that is advice privately given to me by cops and it seems to be universal since US as well as Dutch cops have given me this advice.

They were also quite adamant that this is not only valid for suspects, but also for witnesses. If you do want to make a witness statement, get a lawyer and get an agreement that nothing you say in your witness statement can ever be used against you. If they don;t agree to that, don't make a statement.

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That is 100% true. But the cop was only there at the time because of her lies. She caused it.

So many people seem to have a problem with cause and effect. No wonder the US is getting behind the rest of the world in science ;-)

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So, according to these studies, deterrence has an effect on crime.

There is also a diminishing return on harsher punishments. At some point the punishment for minor crimes becomes so harsh a criminal may just decide to step it up a notch because there is no meaningful deterring difference between his crime and more serious and potentially more profitable crimes.

If the punishment for a crime is a life sentence, what is the deterrent stopping you from committing every crime that caries a life sentence? Or in that case anything carrying the death penalty. Not much difference between spending the rest of your life in prison or spending the rest of your (possible shorter) life in prison. Unless of course you consider being locked up without the possibility to get out a life worth living.

Harsh punishments for minor crimes takes away some of the barriers to more serious crime.

[Deleted]

You are missing the key point about them having to be doing something illegal not just getting arrested.


It's really simple, I don't see why you are trying to make it so complicated.


Let me repeat it in the most basic terms I can think of.


If you are committing a crime and an officer gets hurt because of you committing a crime. You are responsible.


Note the committing a crime part, not getting arrested.

This is US law and another reason to be glad not to be living there.

In the UK the police have to consider their safety and the safety of the public in discharging their duties.

You might find it frustrating but (car) chases get called off if the if would endanger people to continue. Everyone is responsible for their own actions.

[Noradin]

Give us this day our daily police bash thread.

This more a bashing the justice system than bashing the police thread.
But yes, that kind of logic totally isn't comprehensible to anyone from a civilized nation.

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However, if the officer was out doing something for the sole reason of trying to find her she should be held at least partially responsible.

No. Not at all.
Other languages have a distinction between contributing to a situation where something happens and being the cause for something to happen (but english falls a bit short on being precise here). You can only be responsible in the second case, never in the first and the example of hand is an instance of the first.

Otherwise we would have to charge children for the death of their teacher if said teacher dies in a traffic incident on his way to school - they are the reason he had the job, after all. (YEs, I'm well aware this invoces "won't someone think of the children" to get people to think about it, but the point is still valid. Others are using the same fallancy in a different form when they tell us about the felony the woman was alengedly committing.)

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She caused it with her lies. Had she not lied he would be alive simple as that.

You consume goods. Should you be accused of causing the death of anyone who dies on the way to work or home to produce said goods?

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I cant tell if this is a troll or not..


The cop was ONLY there because of the actions of the woman. Had she not made a false report, HE. WOULD. NOT. HAVE. BEEN. THERE.

Yes, but if they hadn't been on that case they might have had a party together and all died of food poisening. So she saved a dozend lifes?

[I Push Buttons]

This more a bashing the justice system than bashing the police thread.
But yes, that kind of logic totally isn't comprehensible to anyone from a civilized nation.

How so? Her lying led to a police officer being killed?

[Noradin]

She plead.

The existance of plead bargains is another entrocity of the system.

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How so? Her lying led to a police officer being killed?

So did the police department hiring him and the tax payer paing for it and are you also giving her the benefit of the lifes she potentially saved because police officers on her case didn't die in other accidents because they weren't present?

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So moral of the story: Don't lie to the police.

Got it.

More like stay the hell away from the US.

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This case is a good example: The woman was not convicted of murder, no court would have convicted her of murder, but the murder charge was used as a threat to coerce her to plead guilty to lesser charges.

Exactly. It is extortion by the "justice system".

[I Push Buttons]

The existance of plead bargains is another entrocity of the system.

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So did the police department hiring him and the tax payer paing for it and are you also giving her the benefit of the lifes she potentially saved because police officers on her case didn't die in other accidents because they weren't present?

Only your examples are logical fallacies and the woman's actions literally led to the death of someone.

[Zeta333]

Whether it is a minor transgression or not is irrelevant. It should be punishable by itself and that punishment should be the deterrent. Making someone filing a false report liable for murder is not deterrent it's barbaric. It's almost the definition of cruel and unusual punishment.

Whats barbaric is that a police officer is dead because some fucktard filed a false report.

[araine]

She caused it with her lies. Had she not lied he would be alive simple as that.

And another place in the world where they use this fucked up logic is in Saudi Arabian traffic courts, where if you wasnt here it wouldnt have happened and since you are here it is your fault regardless of who is at fault.

[Noradin]

Only your examples are logical fallacies and the woman's actions literally led to the death of someone.

Which fallancies would that be? That them hiring him led to him being a police officer, which led to him being involved in this case, which led to him being there and getting killed?

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This is a prime example of "not even wrong":

Whats barbaric is that a police officer is dead because some fucktard filed a false report.

[I Push Buttons]

Which fallancies would that be? That them hiring him led to him being a police officer, which led to him being involved in this case, which led to him being there and getting killed?

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This is a prime example of "not even wrong":

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc...

[Noradin]

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc...

Ah yes that one. The one I was pointing out. Good catch identify it in my example.

I would have used that name for what the fallancy in calling her responsible for the death of the police officer was instead of the example, but then I suspect most here wouldn't know what I meant from just that name and telling them to just google it would have been rude.

(Note that I do not call you rude for posting the name, I litterally asked you to speicify it after all.)

[I Push Buttons]

Ah yes that one. The one I was pointing out. Good catch identify it in my example.

I would have used that name for what the fallancy in calling her responsible for the death of the police officer was instead of the example, but then I suspect most here wouldn't know what I meant from just that name and telling them to just google it would have been rude.

(Note that I do not call you rude for posting the name, I litterally asked you to speicify it after all.)

Only it isn't a fallacy in the case of this women... What she did quite literally caused his death... He would not have been in the situation that caused his death but for her lies putting him there...

[Noradin]

Only it isn't a fallacy in the case of this women... What she did quite literally caused his death... He would not have been in the situation that caused his death but for her lies putting him there...

Can you elaborate on that? Just you claiming it be so doesn't make it true.

He wouldn't have been there if he wasn't hired either...
Cause and effect is not subject to morals, and if your law tries to tell you it was then you better look very hard if it is a resonable exception to be made (as is the case of parents being responsible for their children).

[Deleted]

Only it isn't a fallacy in the case of this women... What she did quite literally caused his death... He would not have been in the situation that caused his death but for her lies putting him there...

No, his death was caused quite literally by someone driving along the shoulder into the trooper.

Just because you break the law it doesn't suddenly make you responsible for other people's actions.

http://tritown.gmnews.com/news/2011-...ays_fines.html

"Swan pleaded guilty to the motor vehicle charges and was fined $206 for careless driving and $306 for speeding (75 mph in a 65 mph zone). Each violation also carried $33 in court fees."

So Swan (a West Point military cadet) was speeding and driving carelessly at the time but apparently this wasn't enough for him to shoulder any of the blame...

[nightfalls]

Well, just so you know, if you read carefully you see that in fact the person was not facing a life sentence for directly causing the officer's death (i.e. homicide). In fact, most "felony murder" rules are very specific about which felonies count for felony murder - and they are pretty much all violent/dangerous felonies (i.e. kidnapping, assault, arson, etc.).

The life sentence was directly for her crime of filing a false report, however, the false report causing a death allowed a 10-20 year sentence. The life term came because she was a (highly) repeat offender. While it's hard to defend life sentences for repeated non-violent crimes, I can't say I have much sympathy for this woman. At the end, if someone commits crimes, commits more crimes, and more crimes, and finally someone dies, maybe one needs to take a hard look at the problems the individual is causing.

TL/DR: She was never charged with murder to begin with. Learn to read.

[I Push Buttons]

He wouldn't have been there if he wasn't hire either...
Cause and effect is not subject to morals, and if your law tries to tell you it was then you better look very hard if it is a resonable exception to be made (as is the case of parents being responsible for their children).

Yeah and he wouldn't have been there if the big bang never happened... That is irrelevant. What is relevant is the woman's actions and the consequences of those actions.

[nightfalls]

So Swan (a West Point military cadet) was speeding and driving carelessly at the time but apparently this wasn't enough for him to shoulder any of the blame...

The difference is in the form of intent. Filing a false report is seen as requiring greater intent to cause harm than driving carelessly.

[nightfalls]

Maybe the cop should be held responsible for his own reckless behaviour?

He wouldn't have had to be there if he wasn't sent there ostensibly to find a dangerous, armed criminal.

[Noradin]

He wouldn't have had to be there if he wasn't sent there ostensibly to find a dangerous, armed criminal.

The same would have been true if there had been a criminal, would she still be responsible then? (Just curious.)

[I Push Buttons]

The same would have been true if there had been a criminal, would she still be responsible then? (Just curious.)

Just curious... Do you think "swatters" have committed no wrong with their actions? Calling the police and reporting a fake crime so a SWAT team raids a place...