20 man mythic and its real impact.

[Kyanion]

snip

You make some excellent points that will get abused by certain people. But anyways, I love the flexible system and would be great if a system that put in for normal/heroic would also extend into mythic, because damn wouldn't that be nice. But anyways Blizz came up with this magic number of 20 because 'reasons'. They won't get the part about the fallacy that 20-man are the prefect thing.

[Darsithis]

Knock it off now

[Rinoa]

Sure thing Kyanion. Happy to share some thoughts.

[Deleted]

So, you're proposing a game design principle that is guaranteed to lead to failure of the game as an ongoing enterprise.

Remind me not to invest in anything you ever have anything to do with.

You are right, WoW is such a failure business wise. If only they listened to your great ideas they could possibly even make some profit out of the game.

[Foj]

They won't get the part about the fallacy that 20-man are the prefect thing.

Why shouldn't Blizzard design the most difficult content to a group size that allows for relatively uniform "optimum" compositions?

There could be 10-man Mythic instead of 20-man, but Blizzard wouldn't have nearly as much freedom in mechanics, OR you would still need 20+ people in the guild, 10 of whom would be sat for every other encounter.

[Baconeggcheese]

Knock it off now

Don't you red text at me mr.

This thread got really tense in the last few hours.

- - - Updated - - -

On second thoughts, don't bother. The argument has exhausted itself by this point. Every point has been made many times over in this thread and I should think a mod will lock it soon. Clearly many people just don't get the point of Mythic.

I'm still kinda curious why you think mythic NEEDS to be 1 raid size to work.

[Kyanion]

You are right, WoW is such a failure business wise. If only they listened to your great ideas they could possibly even make some profit out of the game.

You mean the game that is losing subs all over the place?

- - - Updated - - -

Why shouldn't Blizzard design the most difficult content to a group size that allows for relatively uniform "optimum" compositions?

There could be 10-man Mythic instead of 20-man, but Blizzard wouldn't have nearly as much freedom in mechanics, OR you would still need 20+ people in the guild, 10 of whom would be sat for every other encounter.

I mean it is not like mythic is a rousing success either with as few guilds that can even go in there due to forced 20 man.

[Baconeggcheese]

You mean the game that is losing subs all over the place?

They're making more money in spite of that

[Deleted]

I just want to add something you didnt really mention. The flex difficulty is still for large numbers. Try killing Heroic Archimonde with less than 14 people. Actually i dont even know if any 10man group managed to down him.
There is no 10 man content. All content is 15-30 player content. Blizzard actually should really up the minimum players requirement because they are simply sending players into a trap.

[Chetnik]

Why shouldn't Blizzard design the most difficult content to a group size that allows for relatively uniform "optimum" compositions?

There could be 10-man Mythic instead of 20-man, but Blizzard wouldn't have nearly as much freedom in mechanics, OR you would still need 20+ people in the guild, 10 of whom would be sat for every other encounter.

2010-2014 would like a word with you. Blizzard proved that they could make engaging content for 10 and 25. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think they could bring it to 10/20 mythic. I think it has less to do with "freedom of mechanics" and more to do with not wanting to invest resources in that when they can invest less and charge more.

Who the hell had 20+ people on a 10man roster? You're talking about 2 or 3 guilds... MAYBE. Most 10man rosters were 10-13.

[cFortyfive]

Because of Blizzard's excuse that you can only design good raid encounters with one size in mind?

Yeah obviously Blizzard has proven often enough they can't so what's the point ? Excuse or not it always ends up that way and while nobody might give a fuck how shitbalanced faceroll content is having actually somewhat hard content balanced is perfectly fine and if you'd actually had played that addon you'd realize that half of your arguments are bs.

[Kyanion]

I just want to add something you didnt really mention. The flex difficulty is still for large numbers. Try killing Heroic Archimonde with less than 14 people. Actually i dont even know if any 10man group managed to down him.
There is no 10 man content. All content is 15-30 player content. Blizzard actually should really up the minimum players requirement because they are simply sending players into a trap.

We're working on him with sub 14 people, I don't know about 10 man downing him but holy crap the fight is annoying with low numbers.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah obviously Blizzard has proven often enough they can't so what's the point ? Excuse or not it always ends up that way and while nobody might give a fuck how shitbalanced faceroll content is having actually somewhat hard content balanced is perfectly fine and if you'd actually had played that addon you'd realize that half of your arguments are bs.

What argument are you trying to make exactly? They could make content as hard as can be but plenty of people will rush over to call it easy and shitbalanced/faceroll etc. You may call the raids of the past few years bad but I disagree and had no problem with them being 10/25 man. Blizz can do 2 raid sizes, they can claim they can not do it but past raids will prove the fact that it is possible to do so, blizz just chose not to.

[Chetnik]

You may call the raids of the past few years bad but I disagree and had no problem with them being 10/25 man. Blizz can do 2 raid sizes, they can claim they can not do it but past raids will prove the fact that it is possible to do so, blizz just chose not to.

Couldn't have put it better myself

[Spiral Mage]

WAY late to this party but ..

Mythic was only ever intended for the "harder than hardcore" player. If that isn't you, then you don't belong there. As for 10 and 25man guilds going to pieces. I can't speak for anyone else but I personally predicted this expansion as the "guild killer" and if it's doing as much damage as people make it seem like, then I was right.

So let's look at what possible benefit you have to joining a guild? Because all I can think of is the social aspect of it. You can PUG everything else, so why would you ever join a guild?

Not being in a guild and PUGing everything means a few things that people love.
1 - Not having to 'schedule their whole life around raiding' (which is a ridiculous statement but I've seen it thrown around alot).
2 - Being able to be themselves. That is, nasty, abusive assholes. Being in a guild requires you to have manners, which an increasing number of players do not have. They want to kick, scream and rage at every little thing that happens. PUGing raids, lets them PUG with others like themselves, and rage to their heart's content. They're never going to see any of these "horrible scrubs" again anyway, so why pretend they care?

Guilds are probably falling for the same reason I'm not even trying to rebuild mine. My friends left progressively over the course of MOP, partially due to dislike for the theme, some of them due to RL issues, others just flat out got bored of WoW. But my core is gone, and I'd have to totally rebuild .. -- this means alot of work from me, and honestly, as much as I loved the social environment. I can't see myself putting that kind of effort in anymore, not when I can play the game ENTIRELY at my own pace, and NEVER have to log on for ANYTHING if I just don't want to.

I knew that I wouldn't be alone in that realization and I'd wager that's your real problem. We all can be our varying degrees of selfish now, and WOD allows for it more than ever.

As an after thought, to the few here who are cursing Flexible Raiding as an issue. In my guild, I hated having to have 13 or 14 on and tell 3-4 guys: "Hey, sorry, I can't take you tonight, you went last time and this other guy didn't .." It actually caused one of my guild members to lose interest since he was never sure he was going. (Though he did bow out on his own numerous times, only to tell me he was being 'benched' too much .. hey, when I ask and you volunteer, I don't expect you to be upset later ..) -- Flexible Raiding is one of their best ideas, there's no longer a maximum limit. It lets you over-recruit beyond your 10man raid group and then NOT bench those people night after night. I was glad when we recruited a 3rd tank to fill in for one of our main tanks not being on, that he was happy to not raid at all if we didn't need him .. a lot of other people would have become frustrated and gquit but he was just happy to help when he was needed. Flexible means he could always have gone Fury and come, every single night and never have been left out.

If Mythic has anything to do with lost subs, it is a very small percentage of them, and the overwhelming majority are totally unrelated. Anyone else notice a sharp drop after they said "hey guys, sorry, we're abandoning WOD and rushing headlong into another expac"?

[Gilgameshh]

Yeah obviously Blizzard has proven often enough they can't so what's the point ? Excuse or not it always ends up that way and while nobody might give a fuck how shitbalanced faceroll content is having actually somewhat hard content balanced is perfectly fine and if you'd actually had played that addon you'd realize that half of your arguments are bs.

I've played for 10 years, been a guild master, tanked/healed/dps, cleared Naxx 40, multi glad, etc.. Been through more than 99.9% of the playing population in WoW today. I don't think that gives me more credibility in terms of how people should enjoy the game, but I do only state things I strongly believe to be true based off of 10 years of experience/observation. Sorry you feel like I'm blowing smoke. I was trying to get that guy off his high horse because he was belittling other peoples' desires for the game without saying anything of any real substance (from what I've seen, maybe he made a more compelling argument earlier in the thread).

Like I said, I'd be more than happy with a single raid size that was 40 people. That's what I enjoyed the most for personal reasons. The point I was trying to make about a singular raid size was: If that's true, then why not appease more people with 10-man mythic and have flex take on any raid size that's bigger? There are 2300 guilds raiding mythic and 500 of those are 1/13; that number would be most assuredly be MUCH higher if the raid size needed was 10.

You also have to think about dying/dead servers. I had to scrounge up what I could on my server just to raid mythic, and we were essentially the only alliance mythic guild on a server that has been around since launch. In MoP, we had plenty of 10-man guilds doing their thing. The drop off was a result of raid size doubling for mythic.

I would prefer there be separate raiding content that reached out to more people so there wouldn't have to be so many difficulties, and I think that's something almost everyone can agree upon. Beyond everything else, that's my biggest beef with the raiding design.

[Kyanion]

Mythic was only ever intended for the "harder than hardcore" player. If that isn't you, then you don't belong there. As for 10 and 25man guilds going to pieces. I can't speak for anyone else but I personally predicted this expansion as the "guild killer" and if it's doing as much damage as people make it seem like, then I was right.

Umm yeahhhhh So killing off guilds is a good business plan? Also I don't remember them ever saying it was for the "harder than hardcore" player. And I'm sorry there are people in 10 man guilds that could have handled the content if given a chance, sadly they were not. The rest of your post is pointless drivel so I snipped it.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Two things imo:

1. Many mythic level players were shut out of raiding mythic based on rosters when only months before we're running mythic. It boiled to to spend money transferring around looking for a fit or hoping people spent money transferring to you. This didn't work out in a majority of cases. This left a bad taste in many people's mouths on 20 man's and they got a point. Tons of guilds would still be alive and raiding mythic if 10 man was still an option.

2. People felt entitled to mythic. A lot that shouldn't really be. I know a lot of folks that needed 20 to 25% buffs to defeat raids in the past playing the "I am top end" card because they rank on normal fights or something still. 10 man let a lot of these people slip into guilds because the tune wasn't as tight as today's 20 man. This kept this vocal minority in the shadows which is important because they are toxic as hell when they got a bone to pick and nothing but time on their hands.

[Osmeric]

I'm still kinda curious why you think mythic NEEDS to be 1 raid size to work.

I think it comes from the following two propositions:

(1) Mythic needs to be very tightly tuned so it presents a challenge to even the best players,

(2) Tuning in (1) is too difficult to achieve in multiple raid sizes.

I would dispute (1), btw.

[Deleted]

I think it comes from the following two propositions:

(1) Mythic needs to be very tightly tuned so it presents a challenge to even the best players,

(2) Tuning in (1) is too difficult to achieve in multiple raid sizes.

I would dispute (1), btw.

It's not so much this, it's the fight encounter design. certain mechanics just don't sit well with fewer players. That's the reason why a lot of fights feel very difficult with fewer players even on non mythic (as has been mentioned in this thread). As brilliant as you might think past encounters were, having more players in the raid allows for more mechanics to be designed which leads to better raids. It's that simple.

Imagine going to the extreme, imagine if raiders were 4 players. What mechanics could you feasibly have 4 players handle? Very simple ones i .e. dungeons. The more players you have in an encounter, the more quirky and engaging encounters can be designed.

Blizzard have stated this themselves. if you have experienced the fights you know this to be true. Most raiders agree with this sentiment. I'm not sure why there is still a debate over this fact but hey it's the internet....

[Enitzu]

Never work? Never work my ass. You are telling me fights like Siegecrafter Blackfuse and Garrosh 10 man were not well done fights on the 10 man variety? Give me a freaking break. If you think a dev team of that size cannot produce quality 10 man and 20 man content at the same time then you will never be able to see the other side in this discussion.

Just because the raid size went to 20 does not mean the people that prefer 10 man are not 'hardcore' now. There are many reasons why people do NOT enjoy 20 man raiding and I'm not going over them AGAIN because you fail to see the point.

You are comparing things that were meant to be for 10 man to things that were not. Do you honestly mean to tell me that the current content could be done in mythic 10 man? Because there are a lot of fights I can assure you it would not be possible. They would have to change the entire fight to be able to compensate for the small raid size. As they did in the past. That is what stopped us from having the raids that we do now. Ask any serious mythic raider right now if they prefer todays raids or SoO. I don't know a single one that would say SoO.

You don't have to go over anything. You have your opinion but that's all it is. Hardcore or not, that does not make it feasible to alter encounters to tailor to groups that can't handle the mechanics of it's design. It's not a skill thing, it's a numbers thing. Whether you like it or not makes no difference. They can not do the quality of the raiding today in a 10 man setting. It's just not possible.

- - - Updated - - -

Umm yeahhhhh So killing off guilds is a good business plan? Also I don't remember them ever saying it was for the "harder than hardcore" player. And I'm sorry there are people in 10 man guilds that could have handled the content if given a chance, sadly they were not. The rest of your post is pointless drivel so I snipped it.

See above. You are just sounding like a bitter person that only has 9 friends to carry them. If you have the skill to do mythic then join a guild to do so or find another 10 man guild and you guys group up for it. Fact is that it is not possible to do and any real raiders don't want them to touch it. Because for the first time since Wrath, the raiding is actually good again. If you don't want to be in a mythic guild then stick to heroics