Where would you want the Rogue class hall?

[Superbloops]

Ok lets cut this to the chase...

Its arguable that Combat are considered dirty hired thugs... but Assassination and Sub are based in ASSASSINS.

And that ASSASSIN concept is all about sneaky skilled hired Assassins. Something comparable to Ninjas or Hitmen. They still work for money and only care about themselves, just like the dirty hired thugs concept.

So, out of the 3 Rogue specs 2 of them lean towards hired skilled assassins and 1 spec towards hired thug.

Therefore i think its fair to say the class is more akin to skilled disciplined assassins... and that leans towards Ravenholdt as the class hub.

So Rogues aren't 'Rogues' unless they've specifically contract killers? What about our Adventuring Rogues or level 1 Rogues? Why even call the specialization/discipline 'Assassination' if there's no distinction? It's because Rogues occupy a larger niche than gameplay mechanics allow.

Subtlety would be great for thieves or spies, but since WoW is a combat-oriented game, players are given plenty of combat skills. There's a similar problem with how Pirates/Combat rogues preform, but since they're repurposing and renaming specs in Legion, they may do more to differentiate them.

Onto your last point, Priests are more akin to holy healers than shadowy figures, but I'm sure they won't be made unwelcome in their Hall. They'll probably pick/make a location that's a compromise between them. Same thing's happening here- qualifications for a 'Rogue' being good at fighting, stealing, and sneaking. Common thieves are just as much Rogues as Assassins, so their wide definition requires some common ground. Assassin Ravenholdt doesn't need pirates or bandits, so Criminal Underbelly it is.

Yeah, because in a fantasy game
with a ton of teleport systems even lorewise that is totally a reason to be or not to be in certain place.

Teleportation still seems like more of a gameplay/plot ability, rather than something acknowledged much in-universe. If anyone utilized it realistically, then there 'ought to be Goblin mages everyone revolutionizing transportation to turn a quick buck.

[Geckoo]

Same thing's happening here- qualifications for a 'Rogue' being good at fighting, stealing, and sneaking. Common thieves are just as much Rogues as Assassins, so their wide definition requires some common ground. Assassin Ravenholdt doesn't need pirates or bandits, so Criminal Underbelly it is.

Ravenholdt already exists and has welcomed any rogue player despite their spec choice. Ravenholdt is already that common ground, it has always been.

While it's true that thematically it doesn't fit for certain archetypes, truth is that those archetypes don't fit either for a character that is treated constantly as the champion or hero, a common thief does not become a commander of the alliance respected even by the king, he can still be a thief sure, but not a common one. So while it's true that rogues cover a wide variety of archetypes, lorewise this only happens during the leveling experience and not all of it, we soon start to become the hero that saved the world a couple of times (even if we didn't, is just how the game works) and start to be more focused around specialized archetypes that are not by any means close to the ones that perfectly fit the underbelly.

But yes, even with that in mind the underbelly fits the class... and so does Ravenholdt. The difference is that Ravenholdt also holds some symbolic power that trascends the game barriers for many of us. The question we want them to answer is why not Ravenholdt. Because so far what we've seen is a huge disconnection between player's view of the class and devs view of the class.

Teleportation still seems like more of a gameplay/plot ability, rather than something acknowledged much in-universe. If anyone utilized it realistically, then there 'ought to be Goblin mages everyone revolutionizing transportation to turn a quick buck.

You are right, but in the end we are players in a fantasy game, and that's really all that matters. If the plot requires a rogue to be able to teleport... then the rogue will be able to teleport. Just as we had this mage helping us in the legendary quest that teleported us out of danger each time we screwed up. And this works both for players and NPC's, lore is flexible, everything can change and everything can be explained in a thousand different ways.

[Alltat]

I like the idea of the rogue class hall being inside a major city. While having a manor in the countryside is secluded, it's not really sneaky. Given that it's Dalaran, having the class hall be in one of the towers seems wrong, so it pretty much has to be at street level or underground. A secret basement under a tavern might be nicer than a secret room in the sewers, though.

But I can live with the sewers if there's at least one ninja turtle reference.

[ringpriest]

I like the idea of the rogue class hall being inside a major city. While having a manor in the countryside is secluded, it's not really sneaky. Given that it's Dalaran, having the class hall be in one of the towers seems wrong, so it pretty much has to be at street level or underground. A secret basement under a tavern might be nicer than a secret room in the sewers, though.

But I can live with the sewers if there's at least one ninja turtle reference.

The TMNT ref has been there since Wrath:


And yeah, some sort of "secret room" in Dal could work - say, below The Legerdemain Lounge, accessible via doing something sneaky and roguelike (remember when dungeons used to have secret rooms?) would be okay (although I still think there are better options. I wouldn't even really object much to The Underbelly. It's just that Blizzard has to keep repeating "sewers", like they actively want us getting deluged in filthy wastewater.

[Superbloops]

Ravenholdt already exists and has welcomed any rogue player despite their spec choice. Ravenholdt is already that common ground, it has always been.

While it's true that thematically it doesn't fit for certain archetypes, truth is that those archetypes don't fit either for a character that is treated constantly as the champion or hero, a common thief does not become a commander of the alliance respected even by the king, he can still be a thief sure, but not a common one.

Of course Ravenholdt isn't going to turn down the player, that's another gameplay quirk. Same reason why people are quick to recognize you as a hero whether you're a Death Knight, Warlock, or soon, Demon Hunter, despite cavorting with the dead and demons.

And to that point, you're the hero of the Hall, not necessarily all the NPCs who compose it. They're the ones who'd be subject to the strict selection process of Ravenholdt, which demands a particular way of doing things.

The difference is that Ravenholdt also holds some symbolic power that trascends the game barriers for many of us. The question we want them to answer is why not Ravenholdt.

I mean, I can tell you that: 'Ravenholdt' is a fucking house. That's burned down now. They want to create new art assets instead of leaving players, especially new players without nostalgia goggles, angry when they see how much of a shitty looking house their Hall is compared to others with obvious visual ties to their classes. Little did they know they were damned either way, though.

If the plot requires a rogue to be able to teleport... then the rogue will be able to teleport. Just as we had this mage helping us in the legendary quest that teleported us out of danger each time we screwed up. And this works both for players and NPC's, lore is flexible, everything can change and everything can be explained in a thousand different ways.

That's because the plot demanded a mage intervene, though. They don't want a world that is completely dysfunctional without portals. It's like why the Eagles didn't transport the Hobbits to Mordor in LoTR- it's boring. Ships and Zepplins still take their routes, Armies still amass near battlefields, Infrastructure is developed without Mages in mind, and Khadgar flew to Stormwind with urgent news in the Legion trailer instead of just teleporting because Blizz made him forget he had portals.

[Geckoo]

I mean, I can tell you that: 'Ravenholdt' is a fucking house. That's burned down now. They want to create new art assets instead of leaving players, especially new players without nostalgia goggles, angry when they see how much of a shitty looking house their Hall is compared to others with obvious visual ties to their classes. Little did they know they were damned either way, though.

First, we don't know for sure what happened with Ravenholdt, i agree that the place was burnt down and the order as we know is pretty much gone (by the way, a great way to introduce the class order is have the player rebuilding Ravenholdt), but truth is that we really don't know, they actually added stuff in MoP to the place, irrelevant stuff lorewise anyway.

Second, who the hell has asked for a shitty house? Why you assume that Ravenholdt can't be as new as the underbelly hall will be? Anything new they can do in Dalaran, can also be done in Ravenholdt. You can find a lot of cool ideas in this same thread, this has never been about the tiny little manor, but about the place as a symbol. As i said once... i'll be fine with the underbelly if all the lore was related to Ravenholdt as a continuation from the events from Cataclysm.

That's because the plot demanded a mage intervene, though. They don't want a world that is completely dysfunctional without portals. It's like why the Eagles didn't transport the Hobbits to Mordor in LoTR- it's boring. Ships and Zepplins still take their routes, Armies still amass near battlefields, Infrastructure is developed without Mages in mind, and Khadgar flew to Stormwind with urgent news in the Legion trailer instead of just teleporting because Blizz made him forget he had portals.

But that's exactly my point. If the plot demands teleports, rogues will have teleports.

It was a response to Hitei and his 'realistic' arguments, like... Ravenholdt can't be a class hall because the legion can throw infernals from the sky.

[Hitei]

But that's exactly my point. If the plot demands teleports, rogues will have teleports.

It was a response to Hitei and his 'realistic' arguments, like... Ravenholdt can't be a class hall because the legion can throw infernals from the sky.

But he seems to be pointing out the exact opposite.
The world isn't designed with "We can just give them portals" in mind. It's designed with some amount of realism or logic. When you join up with Taylor/Nazgrim in Vashj'ir, there could have been a mage around to open a portal and summon an entire army--Sylvanas "could have" flown a warlock/mage or two over the greymane wall, and summoned in her entire army.

But those things don't actually happen in lore, because as Superbloops pointed out, it's boring and lacks any tension--like the eagles flying the fellowship to Mordor.

Yes, you absolutely could come up with brand new lore that makes Ravenholdt viable. There could suddenly be some crazy powerful underground poison lake that rogues are attempting to us, or some magical void tear that makes rogues more invisible when stealthed. But my whole point (including the thing about the infernals) is that in current lore, in the current setup of the game, there are a ton of reasons why Ravenholdt makes zero sense as the location player rogues would choose to setup their anti-legion class order--And the only reason why they'd choose it is because of nostalgic/sentimental attachment.

You could bend lore to make the Deadmines the location too--frankly that would make about as much sense, Ravenholdt existed only to fight the Syndicate, and the Defias existed only to fight Stormwind. But personally I don't want them to shove in a poorly thought-out Deus ex machina just so that our class hall can be someplace that rogues have done a few quests before.

Especially since even you (and most rogues in general) seem to agree that the location itself (the building, garden, etc) is pretty terrible and would need a complete revamp or large-scale underground structure.

First, we don't know for sure what happened with Ravenholdt, i agree that the place was burnt down and the order as we know is pretty much gone (by the way, a great way to introduce the class order is have the player rebuilding Ravenholdt), but truth is that we really don't know, they actually added stuff in MoP to the place, irrelevant stuff lorewise anyway.

Second, who the hell has asked for a shitty house? Why you assume that Ravenholdt can't be as new as the underbelly hall will be? Anything new they can do in Dalaran, can also be done in Ravenholdt. You can find a lot of cool ideas in this same thread, this has never been about the tiny little manor, but about the place as a symbol. As i said once... i'll be fine with the underbelly if all the lore was related to Ravenholdt as a continuation from the events from Cataclysm.

That's what I don't get most of all. Even the people that "want Ravenholdt" don't want Ravenholdt, they want a brand new faction that has nothing to do with what Ravenholdt was about (defending the remnants of Lordaeron against the Syndicate), and a new base because actual Ravenholdt is awful... all just located where Ravenholdt is.

Why? If we can agree the faction itself is gone/irrelevant to the current lore, and the physical setup of the location is shitty, why do you want Blizzard to jump through a bunch of hoops and bend lore in weird directions to fix all the problems with the location? Why not just let them give us new, relevant, interesting development instead of trying to make old things passable?

[Artorius]

What they want is the name, Hitei.

[Mormolyce]

How about the mages of Dalaran cast whatever spell is on that city on Ravenholdt and it flies to the Isle of Sargeras with us?

[Geckoo]

The world isn't designed with "We can just give them portals" in mind. It's designed with some amount of realism or logic.

Of course, no need to explain that, is obvious, really. What i'm saying is that the logic can be presented in different ways. As i said, if the plot requires rogues to be able to fast travel to Ravenholdt, they'll add a way to do it. Simple as that.

If they need to explain that we have a mage hired to keep a portal open all the time... they'll do it. If they need to explain that we have some kind hearthstone... they'll do it.

And that's why you can't simply use distance as an argument against Ravenholdt, because it's irrelevant and easy to fix if they want to tell their story in that place.

Especially since even you (and most rogues in general) seem to agree that the location itself (the building, garden, etc) is pretty terrible and would need a complete revamp or large-scale underground structure.

So it's okay, even mandatory! to expect something new in the underbelly but we are suddenly wrong if we expect something new in Ravenholdt?

Yes, of course i expected Ravenholdt and of course i didn't expect the actual manor, but a new one. An underground structure is just the easiest way to deal with it, since you can keep the surface untouched. That's exactly what they seem to be doing with Light's hope chapel btw.

That's what I don't get most of all. Even the people that "want Ravenholdt" don't want Ravenholdt, they want a brand new faction that has nothing to do with what Ravenholdt was about (defending the remnants of Lordaeron against the Syndicate), and a new base because actual Ravenholdt is awful... all just located where Ravenholdt is.

Why? If we can agree the faction itself is gone/irrelevant to the current lore, and the physical setup of the location is shitty, why do you want Blizzard to jump through a bunch of hoops and bend lore in weird directions to fix all the problems with the location? Why not just let them give us new, relevant, interesting development instead of trying to make old things passable?

As i said many times, for some players Ravenholdt holds a lot of symbolic power as a bastion of rogue identity in a game that usually mistreats the class a lot. In many aspects it's right to say that we mostly want the name, because while it's just a name... it holds a lot of power.

You can argue about the lore all you want (and btw, you are right), it won't change the fact that for many players Ravenholdt means more than what the game depicts. When even non-rogue players recognize Ravenholdt as the 'rogue place', it's a strong proof of what i'm saying, just as we can easily relate Moonglade to druids even if they haven't had any druid-only activity in that place for years.

So while i want as much as you do some new, releveant and interesting development... i simply think that Ravenholdt is a perfectly valid choice to start telling that new story or even to be a core part of it.

I did expect Ravenholdt in both aspects: location & lore. But i don't dislike the underbelly concept, i still prefer Ravenholdt though. I simply think that is a pity that they miss the chance to use something that has some meaning for many players and that could help to improve the representation of rogues in the game.

[Hitei]

As i said many times, for some players Ravenholdt holds a lot of symbolic power as a bastion of rogue identity in a game that usually mistreats the class a lot. In many aspects it's right to say that we mostly want the name, because while it's just a name... it holds a lot of power.

You can argue about the lore all you want (and btw, you are right), it won't change the fact that for many players Ravenholdt means more than what the game depicts. When even non-rogue players recognize Ravenholdt as the 'rogue place', it's a strong proof of what i'm saying, just as we can easily relate Moonglade to druids even if they haven't had any druid-only activity in that place for years.

So while i want as much as you do some new, releveant and interesting development... i simply think that Ravenholdt is a perfectly valid choice to start telling that new story or even to be a core part of it.

I did expect Ravenholdt in both aspects: location & lore. But i don't dislike the underbelly concept, i still prefer Ravenholdt though. I simply think that is a pity that they miss the chance to use something that has some meaning for many players and that could help to improve the representation of rogues in the game.

That's perfectly fine. My issue has never been with people being attached to Ravenholdt--although I'll admit, I did the Vanilla Ravenholdt line and the Fangs quests and I'm still pretty eh about it--my problem is with people arguing that Ravenholdt makes more sense, or is the logical location. I'm glad that you are reasonable about it instead of one of those people that just makes a poop joke and whines about Blizzard being stupid.

I would love for Ravenholdt to be revisited at some point in a way that makes sense--Genn and Sylvanas are major characters for what is presumably a side plot about Gilneas and the Forsaken... Ravenholdt is really close to that warfront, it would be a decent location for rogues from both factions to have a truce in order to fill their own pockets more, profiteering off of the war. Or something to that effect.

I just don't want it as the Class Order Hall, when it has so little to do with the fight against the Legion.

[Elhaym]

Rogue backlash against sewers

Blizzard response = THERE'S TREASURE CHESTS! so cool.

You're all gonna be like, WHY IS THERE SO MUCH TREASURE HERE? this is awesome. This treasure makes me feel special. The fact I'm surrounded by vibrio cholerae infested water is totally forgotten AMIDST ALL THIS AWESOME TREASURE.

Meanwhile, rogues will continue to be one of the least played classes as a part of the ongoing karmic rebalance as a result of vanilla

[Geckoo]

That's perfectly fine. My issue has never been with people being attached to Ravenholdt--although I'll admit, I did the Vanilla Ravenholdt line and the Fangs quests and I'm still pretty eh about it--my problem is with people arguing that Ravenholdt makes more sense, or is the logical location. I'm glad that you are reasonable about it instead of one of those people that just makes a poop joke and whines about Blizzard being stupid.

Well, you have to admit Blizzard's fault in this.

First, they did call it a sewer, that was a really bad choice and has lead to all those bad jokes, even if 'sewer' is not the problem here.
Second, using things as the silver hand and the ashbringer... sets a really high standard that can only lead to dissapointment as soon as a class or spec don't gets something in the same levels of awesomness and lore.

All these discussion about Ravenholdt will soon be joined by a ton more threads about how we get <random weapon that they just created> instead of <awesome weapon that we all know and already exists>. If pallys get Ashbringer my class should also get the cool one!

This kind of stuff usually gets forgotten as soon as we start playing, but it still piles up in the list of things that made my class feel mistreated by the devs.

I just don't want it as the Class Order Hall, when it has so little to do with the fight against the Legion.

As i repeated so many times... lore can change. Ravenholdt can have a lot to do with legion if they want.

And just to be more clear about my point of view... I'm sure that the underbelly hall will look great and be cool, the question i want them to answer at some point is simply why not Ravenholdt. Because so far it all seems to be sheer ignorance from their part about how players view the class and feel about the tiny bit of exclusive lore that we have.

So dear wow devs: Instead of constantly telling us how cool the underbelly will be (with trasure chests!), tell us why Ravenholdt can't be the class hall, give us some good reasons... i might not like them (and that's fine), but at least it will show players that at some point it was an option that they considered.

[Deleted]

Onto your last point, Priests are more akin to holy healers than shadowy figures, but I'm sure they won't be made unwelcome in their Hall. They'll probably pick/make a location that's a compromise between them. Same thing's happening here- qualifications for a 'Rogue' being good at fighting, stealing, and sneaking. Common thieves are just as much Rogues as Assassins, so their wide definition requires some common ground. Assassin Ravenholdt doesn't need pirates or bandits, so Criminal Underbelly it is.

U see... there u go again.

Making the massive leap that Rogues are simply criminals.

We are not gangsters, we are not common thieves. We are a proud group of lethal killers, fast and skilled.

Your entire reasoning is based on Rogues being criminals...

Rogues lore is totally based around Ravenholdt, it explains how we came to be. I suggest people learn it instead of inventing loads of bullshit personal ideas to what the class is all about.

- - - Updated - - -

This kind of stuff usually gets forgotten as soon as we start playing, but it still piles up in the list of things that made my class feel mistreated by the devs.

And this point is VERY important.

The Rogue class already has a long list of examples why the devs dont give a shit about us... we really dont wanna add more points to that list.

If we are in the Sewers then we will be the lulz of the game... who wants to roll a class thats based in the sewers with all that garbage and shit?

Its not gonna attract anyone to roll the most dying class in the game is it ffs.

Its also looking like Rogues Legion 'legendary' aint gonna add up to much either. Nothing much in existing lore to give us

[Lady Velvet]

I don't mind where it is as long as there's Valeera making witty comments about how Demon Hunters will never be as useful or resourceful as Rogues.

[Superbloops]

U see... there u go again.

Making the massive leap that Rogues are simply criminals.

We are not gangsters, we are not common thieves. We are a proud group of lethal killers, fast and skilled.

Your entire reasoning is based on Rogues being criminals...

Sure, all Rogues aren't criminals (like our adventuring Rogues), but in the Warcraft Universe, criminals are Rogues. Pirates are Rogues. Spies, bandits, thieves, gangsters... all (generally) Rogues. There's variety that's not being explored, and I feel a Class Hall ought to remedy that problem instead of suggesting we're simply copy-pasted badass Assassin/Ninja types.

As a whole, members of the class aren't afraid to steal, cheat, sneak, ambush, mutilate, shiv, murder, backstab, posion, cheap shot, gank for fun, and kidney punch. Yours can be a Rogue with a heart of gold, but I still feel the class identity should involve us embracing the cheeky/underhanded side a little bit more. Especially in light of Demon Hunters, the new class on the block which pretty much embodies the badass Hunter/Assassin thing, with the addition of fire and sweet ninja flips.

Rogues lore is totally based around Ravenholdt, it explains how we came to be. I suggest people learn it instead of inventing loads of bullshit personal ideas to what the class is all about.

You act like that’s a good thing. How long do you want Rogue lore to be based around Ravenholdt Manor? If you’d like to stay there forever, I hope you’d realize here’s an opportunity to explore what other Rogues are up to instead of Blizz retconning Ravenholdt’s modus operandi.

If we are in the Sewers then we will be the lulz of the game... who wants to roll a class thats based in the sewers with all that garbage and shit?

Seriously, did you even play during Wrath. Next to the surface, Dalaran Sewers was the place to be (my #1 thanks to less lag and Potions) and things’ll be much more interesting in Legion.

Who would dare venture to the lawless PvP zone beneath Dalaran knowing they’ll be walking into the Rogue’s Den? A place we feel perfectly at home in? There goes 60% extra class flavor, as we get to be The Danger.

Lorewise for those Assassins out there, it also means an ordinary person wanting someone else killed doesn’t have to jump through hoops to get a message out into the forest…

Its also looking like Rogues Legion 'legendary' aint gonna add up to much either. Nothing much in existing lore to give us

Hunters get a new Lodge and new lore weapon, so presumably we'll have new connections in the Underbelly providing the same benefit. Stop complaining about no lore when a new opportunity for lore is slapping us in the face.

[Ajhian]

I'm personally fine with it being on the sewers.

[Deleted]

You act like that’s a good thing. How long do you want Rogue lore to be based around Ravenholdt Manor? If you’d like to stay there forever, I hope you’d realize here’s an opportunity to explore what other Rogues are up to instead of Blizz retconning Ravenholdt’s modus operandi.

I suggest u read this.

http://ravenholdtmanor.blogspot.co.u...syndicate.html

Your assertion that we have been using Ravenholdt for too long is just ridiculous. Yes, its been the spiritual home for Rogues since the game started but its not been used for anything apart from questing since Vanilla!

So its not overused as u imply.

Seriously, did you even play during Wrath. Next to the surface, Dalaran Sewers was the place to be (my #1 thanks to less lag and Potions) and things’ll be much more interesting in Legion.

Theres a big difference between having the pvp hub for ALL CLASSES in the Dalaran sewers for a whole expansion to having a class hub there.

I stand by the point that alot of new players will keep clear of rolling Rogue cos the class hub sucks. And it will suck if we are based in the sewers.

[LilSaihah]

Seriously, did you even play during Wrath. Next to the surface, Dalaran Sewers was the place to be (my #1 thanks to less lag and Potions) and things’ll be much more interesting in Legion.

I never went into the sewers and I played for all of Wrath. =/