t18 4set Destruction - is Shadowburn still worth it over Chaosbolt sub 20%?

[Deleted]

I read somewhere (I believe it was Icy veins) that with the current 4set, Chaos bolt overtakes Shadowburn (due to the 13% chance to not consume an Ember).

Is this true?

Note that I am only asking for general DPS. It's obvious that Shadowburn is still far superior when it comes to sniping adds that will die within 5 seconds.

[JV Chequer]

I read somewhere (I believe it was Icy veins) that with the current 4set, Chaos bolt overtakes Shadowburn (due to the 13% chance to not consume an Ember).

Is this true?

Note that I am only asking for general DPS. It's obvious that Shadowburn is still far superior when it comes to sniping adds that will die within 5 seconds.

Yes, always use Chaos bolt at Single Target unless you have a buff that gonna expire in 1.5s or less.

[Demonidze]

Personally i prefer to chaos bolt unless:

1) movement
2) can havoc cleave
3) target about to die and no time for CB to hit (including travel time).

[SpikeySquad]

I would also suggest that it's the 2 set rather than that weak 4 set that changes things.

[Nevalus]

Using shadowburn in pure single target under 20% isn't what you do even without set bonus.

[Cathbadh]

Personally i prefer to chaos bolt unless:

1) movement
2) can havoc cleave
3) target about to die and no time for CB to hit (including travel time).

Pretty much this although I won't use it during movement if I have conflag available.

[Deleted]

Chaos Bolt was used over SB in the execute most of the time anyway, though the difference probably isn't as large as some people make it out to be. Certainly isn't worth using with the set bonus outside of either Havoc cleave or sniping a proc window when you don't have time to hardcast.

[Clevs]

Personally i prefer to chaos bolt unless:

1) movement
2) can havoc cleave
3) target about to die and no time for CB to hit (including travel time).

Adding onto the movement part, really you shouldn't be using Shadowburn on the move too much UNLESS you have trinket procs or DS up. The main uses for SB right now are mostly sniping when you know an add is going to die in 4 seconds or, like Demonidze said, when you can Havoc into at least 2 shadowburns.

TL;DR even on the move, SB isn't worth it unless you have procs or target is dying in ~4 seconds.

[Deleted]

Not sure why so many of you guys are saying Chaos bolt is better than Shadowburn sub-20% even without 2/4set. Simple damage per execute calculations (damage divided by cast time or gcd time) will show you that Shadowburn is significantly higher DPS...

[Brusalk]

Not sure why so many of you guys are saying Chaos bolt is better than Shadowburn sub-20% even without 2/4set. Simple damage per execute calculations (damage divided by cast time or gcd time) will show you that Shadowburn is significantly higher DPS...

Except Shadowburns and Chaos Bolts are limited by resources, so its far more important to take into account damage per resource than dpet.

[Astynax]

Except Shadowburns and Chaos Bolts are limited by resources, so its far more important to take into account damage per resource than dpet.

But the time you spend regenerating those embers plus damage on top after SB dump is a gain over CB. If the embers were on a per charge basis then sure, CB will win out. When you can make more embers in the same time of just casting CB and do more damage in that time SB can be better

[purebalance]

Personally i prefer to chaos bolt unless:

1) movement
2) can havoc cleave
3) target about to die and no time for CB to hit (including travel time).

This. It's been this way for a while. The only time you should really shadowburn is cleave, movement(if you don't have conflag or you're full on embers), or the target will die or you lose a buff before cb would get benefit.

[zvvl]

But the time you spend regenerating those embers plus damage on top after SB dump is a gain over CB. If the embers were on a per charge basis then sure, CB will win out. When you can make more embers in the same time of just casting CB and do more damage in that time SB can be better

How are you possibly able to generate 10 emberbits in the time it takes to cast chaos bolt?

[Deleted]

Except Shadowburns and Chaos Bolts are limited by resources, so its far more important to take into account damage per resource than dpet.

Yes............................... and Shadowburn is more DPS per said resource. It's the exact same thing. It's very simple logic that if 1x Shadowburn is more damage per execute than 1x Chaos bolt for 1 Ember, then Shadowburn is the better spell to spend that Ember on as it results in overall more damage gained in a given amount of time..........

You can't just think ''it does more damage for the resource so it's clearly better. By that logic, a 10 second cast which hits slightly more than chaos bolt would be better. Which is clearly stupid. You have to factor in cast time and create a Damage per execute value.

As for other people making these claims, please at least show some basis for claim rather than what 'feels' correct.

[xuros]

Yes............................... and Shadowburn is more DPS per said resource. It's the exact same thing. It's very simple logic that if 1x Shadowburn is more damage per execute than 1x Chaos bolt for 1 Ember, then Shadowburn is the better spell to spend that Ember on as it results in overall more damage gained in a given amount of time..........

You can't just think ''it does more damage for the resource so it's clearly better. By that logic, a 10 second cast which hits slightly more than chaos bolt would be better. Which is clearly stupid. You have to factor in cast time and create a Damage per execute value.

As for other people making these claims, please at least show some basis for claim rather than what 'feels' correct.

Except its not. SB if you are moving, using it with Havoc, or if mob dies before the CB gets off or hits is what you should be going by for the most part like most on this thread and in the Destro thread have been saying everytime this is asked and people want to debate it.

[asuroxander]

Yes............................... and Shadowburn is more DPS per said resource. It's the exact same thing. It's very simple logic that if 1x Shadowburn is more damage per execute than 1x Chaos bolt for 1 Ember, then Shadowburn is the better spell to spend that Ember on as it results in overall more damage gained in a given amount of time..........

You can't just think ''it does more damage for the resource so it's clearly better. By that logic, a 10 second cast which hits slightly more than chaos bolt would be better. Which is clearly stupid. You have to factor in cast time and create a Damage per execute value.

As for other people making these claims, please at least show some basis for claim rather than what 'feels' correct.

The only flaw with this is that Shadowburn does not 100% crit, and therefore can only be a "gain" if you can guarantee it crits. Otherwise Chaos bolt almost always is better.

[Octa]

Yes............................... and Shadowburn is more DPS per said resource. It's the exact same thing. It's very simple logic that if 1x Shadowburn is more damage per execute than 1x Chaos bolt for 1 Ember, then Shadowburn is the better spell to spend that Ember on as it results in overall more damage gained in a given amount of time..........

You can't just think ''it does more damage for the resource so it's clearly better. By that logic, a 10 second cast which hits slightly more than chaos bolt would be better. Which is clearly stupid. You have to factor in cast time and create a Damage per execute value.

As for other people making these claims, please at least show some basis for claim rather than what 'feels' correct.

This all started back at the start of the expansion when RoF was still a thing and going OOM was something that was ACTUALLY possible, and shadowburn spamming made that more likely. When RoF was made useless it was checked again now that mana wasn't a concern. I believe it was Brusalk did extensive math on this that showed CB+Shadowburn were basically equal pre set bonus (might be confused on who it was that did this) and that's where the basis of Chaos Bolt is better than SB comes from, it wasn't just pulled out of thin air. Maybe you walked into 1 thread and decided "everyone just feels this way" but I assure you people in the community have actively been testing this, simming it, doing math on it for a while and that's where conclusions were reached.

If you've got stuff showing otherwise how bout presenting it so the community can benefit and things can be straightened out instead of just saying everyone else doesn't know what they're talking about. People are ALWAYS willing to discuss things and go back and take a 2nd, 3rd, 30th look at things but when you just come in here saying people are wrong and then say "if you're going to say what I'm not saying, prove it". That kind of attitude just gets ignored cause it makes you look like a complete asshole.

[Deleted]

Except its not. SB if you are moving, using it with Havoc, or if mob dies before the CB gets off or hits is what you should be going by for the most part like most on this thread and in the Destro thread have been saying everytime this is asked and people want to debate it.

Ok... You may find it fine to say ''except its not'', repeat the same claim that has been questioned in the thread and provid no actual further discussion other than saying ''it's already been discussed and it's like this because we say so'', but this kind of response won't be taken seriously by anyone who is looking for facts.

So: Do you have any links to proof? Simulations or napkin math or otherwise?

If it's been so commonly discussed, surely there would be something very simple to cite?

Forgive me for my ignorance, but I come from playing Mage, and if anyone makes a claim on the associated forums there, people are expected to back up claims with logic or simulations, and not told ''this is how it is and how it has been argued''.

- - - Updated - - -

The only flaw with this is that Shadowburn does not 100% crit, and therefore can only be a "gain" if you can guarantee it crits. Otherwise Chaos bolt almost always is better.

Incorrect. The damage per execute calculations are obviously based off of the average damage in a log/simulation of Shadowburn/chaos bolt, naturally comparing an average of noncrits+crits(shadowburn) to always crits(chaos bolt).

[zvvl]

Ok... You may find it fine to say ''except its not'', repeat the same claim that has been questioned in the thread and provid no actual further discussion other than saying ''it's already been discussed and it's like this because we say so'', but this kind of response won't be taken seriously by anyone who is looking for facts.

So: Do you have any links to proof? Simulations or napkin math or otherwise?

If it's been so commonly discussed, surely there would be something very simple to cite?

Forgive me for my ignorance, but I come from playing Mage, and if anyone makes a claim on the associated forums there, people are expected to back up claims with logic or simulations, and not told ''this is how it is and how it has been argued''.

- - - Updated - - -



Incorrect. The damage per execute calculations are obviously based off of the average damage in a log/simulation of Shadowburn/chaos bolt, naturally comparing an average of noncrits+crits(shadowburn) to always crits(chaos bolt).

Not sure how up-to-date this is but: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...sBA/edit#gid=0

Also, your DEPT vs DPEmber logic is incredibly flawed. If something does 100 damage for 1 ember but it's instant (~1second GCD) it will have a higher DPET than something that is 175 damage for 1 ember but takes 2 seconds. But not a higher DPEmber. Not that this is the only factor but your logic is flawed. Especially when resources are capped and need to be generated. I can speed down the highway at 110mph and get to my destination faster, but I'm going to have to pull over for gas more often.

[Octa]

Ok... You may find it fine to say ''except its not'', repeat the same claim that has been questioned in the thread and provid no actual further discussion other than saying ''it's already been discussed and it's like this because we say so'', but this kind of response won't be taken seriously by anyone who is looking for facts.

So: Do you have any links to proof? Simulations or napkin math or otherwise?

If it's been so commonly discussed, surely there would be something very simple to cite?

Forgive me for my ignorance, but I come from playing Mage, and if anyone makes a claim on the associated forums there, people are expected to back up claims with logic or simulations, and not told ''this is how it is and how it has been argued''.

Even if it's something that was discussed for a long time and eventually it became a "common conclusion that everyone followed".
Like if someone said "Hey is it better to cast frostbolt or ice lance without procs" and someone else just answered "frostbolt" because it's something that basically everyone knows and agrees on would you go in there saying "show me the math"? Of course you wouldn't, it's commonly accepted as what is correct. If someone else (you, in this case) wants to challenge that then THEY bring the proof, not the other way around. We don't walk around saying "Gravity doesn't exist" and when someone says "yeah it does" we don't tell them to prove gravity exists. Here is a google doc that was created (from those discussions) to quick check and this is just one thing that came from it all. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...sBA/edit#gid=0

There has been discussion and you CAN find it around here, but you didn't even attempt to look. You're expecting people to bring proof for the commonly accepted while you're the outlier in the situation. What proof do you have for us that can help clear up this matter? If you're so sure that Shadowburn is better and that the community here is wrong, show us. I, for one, would love to see it and am very interested in that discussion.


EDIT: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...urn+Chaos+Bolt
Another thread with discussion on it. I'll keep digging around, but I'd like for you to show some proof (since you're asking it from those here) that Shadowburn is better than CB. Post your math here for us.