Enhancement Weapon Enchant....

[gaymer77]

I'm leveling my shaman and wanted to know if I should get dancing steel on the weapons or if I should get mark of warsong. I know AMR says at 100 I should be using warsong but I'm not sure what to use while leveling up. Keep in mind these will be used all the way to 100 too.

[Mormolyce]

For leveling just go with the cheapest one IMO.

[gaymer77]

They're both relatively cheap for me. My main is an enchanter sitting on a reagent bank full of mats lol. That's why I'm asking which would be better.

[Professor Expert]

I'm leveling my shaman and wanted to know if I should get dancing steel on the weapons or if I should get mark of warsong. I know AMR says at 100 I should be using warsong but I'm not sure what to use while leveling up. Keep in mind these will be used all the way to 100 too.

Pre-100 you may as well go shattered hand, the one that causes extra damage on hit plus a bleed. At 100 when you get some decent weapons you'll want bleeding hollow, the 500 mastery proc. Mark of warsong is only good where you have high uptime on targets so it's a no for pvp and mostly no for pve.

[wordup]

Pre-100 you may as well go shattered hand, the one that causes extra damage on hit plus a bleed. At 100 when you get some decent weapons you'll want bleeding hollow, the 500 mastery proc. Mark of warsong is only good where you have high uptime on targets so it's a no for pvp and mostly no for pve.

That's not true, Mark of Warsong/Bleeding Hollow combination is better; Warsong is actually stronger than Bleeding Hollow on an enchant-to-enchant basis.

[Professor Expert]

That's not true, Mark of Warsong/Bleeding Hollow combination is better; Warsong is actually stronger than Bleeding Hollow on an enchant-to-enchant basis.

Warsong's effective haste buff assuming 100% target uptime is (550 * 1.05) = 577, but bleeding hollow gives you a 500 mastery buff more often, which does not tick down like warsong does, and so you'll always have the full benefit of +500 mastery. If you're out of melee range for just a few seconds with warsong, the average haste of 577 will be more like 450 or less.

I'm not talking about sims, I'm talking about actual in-game performance.

[wordup]

Warsong's effective haste buff assuming 100% target uptime is (550 * 1.05) = 577, but bleeding hollow gives you a 500 mastery buff more often, which does not tick down like warsong does, and so you'll always have the full benefit of +500 mastery. If you're out of melee range for just a few seconds with warsong, the average haste of 577 will be more like 450 or less.

I'm not talking about sims, I'm talking about actual in-game performance.

I'm also talking about in-game performance. Napkin math does not account for repeat logs + simulations + experience. Mastery is very weak in single target and priority target, which is most of HFC, Whilst haste is amazing (even if it's degrading enchant style) compared to it. You can't use the anecdote of being out of melee range to discredit Warsong and not apply it to any other enchant, they all suffer from identical issues due to that. Bear in mind also, even in your worst case scenario of 450 haste average (which is generous) is still vastly superior to 500 mastery in anything other than extended AoE; considering that your spell cooldowns are decided on press, ergo burst haste vs. static is even more valuable.

Also, may I add (since you specifically referenced sims) that you really need to back up with high-end logs that anything outside of Warsong is better (outside of double Bleeding Hollow for mass AoE). Anecdotal "in-play" performance doesn't reflect logs, my experience, or anyone elses, so that would need proof vs. assumption.

[Usagi Senshi]

leveling 1-100? Double Warsong, have fun. Wish these were available when I leveled a 2nd and 3rd shaman back in 2008 and 2011.

[Professor Expert]

I'm also talking about in-game performance. Napkin math does not account for repeat logs + simulations + experience.

I have a feeling the majority of your statement is based on what you punched into a sim, and yes, in a sim haste will often come ahead since we get 5 extra points of haste for every 100.

Mastery is very weak in single target and priority target, which is most of HFC, Whilst haste is amazing (even if it's degrading enchant style) compared to it.

False. Double bleeding hollow gives you 1,000 mastery, right around 9% more, which boost all of your damage other than storm strike and auto attacks. Since the mastery lasts the entire duration without declining as warsong does, you can be out of range for a few seconds and still enjoy the full benefit of a lava lash, lightning bolt, fire nova, flame shock, frost shock hitting 9% harder.

You can't use the anecdote of being out of melee range to discredit Warsong and not apply it to any other enchant, they all suffer from identical issues due to that.

False again. You lose 100 haste rating every 2 seconds with warsong, so if you need 6 seconds to get into melee range because the enchants proc'd on lightning shield while you were out of range, you will have lost 3 ticks or 300 rating before you actually do anything. The average haste benefit is now reduced by that much as well.

Bleeding hollow, meanwhile, boosts the damage of all of your ranged attacks by around 9% for the entire duration of the buff. So you can get some benefit even if you are getting into range, and when you do get into range you mastery benefit will still benefit your nature/magic attacks fully.

Bear in mind also, even in your worst case scenario of 450 haste average (which is generous) is still vastly superior to 500 mastery in anything other than extended AoE; considering that your spell cooldowns are decided on press, ergo burst haste vs. static is even more valuable.

No, that wasn't the worst-case that was a common-case because most of the time the first damage you deal is lightning shield in response to ranged attacks against you, so your enchants proc on that and you're still walking. Haste provides ZERO benefit when you are not in melee range. ZERO. NADA. It's bad. Trust me, or don't, then make a thread telling us how bad enhancement is...

Also, may I add (since you specifically referenced sims) that you really need to back up with high-end logs that anything outside of Warsong is better (outside of double Bleeding Hollow for mass AoE). Anecdotal "in-play" performance doesn't reflect logs, my experience, or anyone elses, so that would need proof vs. assumption.

If you want proof then try it for yourself. Warsong is utterly worthless in pvp, and sketchy at best in pve. Sims do not account for CCs, uptime or anything dynamic and they're a generally bad way to make decisions about gear, abilities or glyphs. You will not have 100% target uptime in dungeons or raids and in pvp you will be chasing your foes quite a bit, being out of their range more than not. You will, in all likelihood, be running around for close to half of the buff duration, and if you chose warsong as your enchant, every second you are not in melee range you are losing substantial benefit of that haste buff.

[Razecog]

1 wep with warsong and 1 wep with bleeding hollow is best. Not my fault if you're shit at the game and can't keep your uptime in PvE.

For PvP however, no wait, warsong is still better. Enh #1 on ladder, Enh #2 on ladder, Enh #3 on ladder I could keep going but you still wouldn't get the point.

And before you ask, no, this isn't based on sims. I have never ran a sim in my entire life.

[Professor Expert]

1 wep with warsong and 1 wep with bleeding hollow is best. Not my fault if you're shit at the game and can't keep your uptime in PvE.

There are simply times when you cannot be on the target for whatever reason. If there was no requirement to move in pve then pve would be even more boring than it already is. So give the faux pro garbage a rest. You probably spent all your gold on warsong and now you want to justify it, when it's really quite bad for most melee.

For PvP however, no wait, warsong is still better. Enh #1 on ladder, Enh #2 on ladder, Enh #3 on ladder I could keep going but you still wouldn't get the point.

Oh no! He linked to some random armories who likely bought carries and/or cheated. Your assumption that simply because someone is high ranked means they get everything right is a logical fallacy in its purest form. Math disagrees with you about haste and warsong's tick-down effect amplifies the fail of a limited duration haste buff that only procs once a minute.

And before you ask, no, this isn't based on sims. I have never ran a sim in my entire life.

Sure, all you do is copy other armories and then wonder why you can't break 500s in 3s after.

BTW that first link, the guy has glyph of flameshock...ouch. Really. Waste of a glyph spot, but hey you should copy that too because he got carried to 3K in 3s and you can't afford to pay anyone to carry you.

[Razecog]

Sure, all you do is copy other armories and then wonder why you can't break 500s in 3s after.

BTW that first link, the guy has glyph of flameshock...ouch. Really. Waste of a glyph spot, but hey you should copy that too because he got carried to 3K in 3s and you can't afford to pay anyone to carry you.

Not sure how I can copy anyone if there is no one ahead of me. You're not worth my time.

[Deleted]

Not sure how I can copy anyone if there is no one ahead of me. You're not worth my time.

Seeing as this thread has already degenerated, I have a random question for you.

Is there any special reason you're not using fel lord weapon in offhand? I was under the impression best weapon still goes in offhand, although I haven't played my shaman since BRF now.

[Razecog]

Seeing as this thread has already degenerated, I have a random question for you.

Is there any special reason you're not using fel lord weapon in offhand? I was under the impression best weapon still goes in offhand, although I haven't played my shaman since BRF now.

Class trinket makes windfury outweight lava lash or something. Tired, hard to put into words.

[wordup]

snip

I'm not sure why you're babbling on about all these PvP anecdotes when it's fairly obvious I'm talking about PvE, I even reference the current raid tier and logs, how could you misconstrue that as me talking about PvP in any way?

What you're saying is wildly inaccurate for discussions in PvE, you are flat out incorrect, and sitting behind the argument of "no sims are wrong and you're wrong!" isn't going to make you right, when every piece of evidence in PvE goes against what you say. Given I don't attempt to reason anything about PvP, because I am not experienced in that area, I feel it would be courteous that you don't try to do the same for PvE, since you very clearly are not experienced in that area either based on how fuzzy (and inaccurate) your statements are.

(I also find it really funny that you quoted all I said, aside from very specifically when I mentioned that haste buffs only change your spell cooldown on-press effectively snapshotting them on press, since that refutes what you're saying about haste having zero value out of range)

[Deleted]

Class trinket makes windfury outweight lava lash or something. Tired, hard to put into words.

Ah, didn't think about that.

[Professor Expert]

Not sure how I can copy anyone if there is no one ahead of me. You're not worth my time.

You are following the generic forum advice of "haste until you are 50%". Versatility is a better pvp stat, so is mastery. Deal with it or continue being a pay-for-rating baddie.

Your time is beyond worthless.

I'm not sure why you're babbling on about all these PvP anecdotes when it's fairly obvious I'm talking about PvE, I even reference the current raid tier and logs, how could you misconstrue that as me talking about PvP in any way?

You don't seem to get how worthless logs are in terms of relating to actual gameplay...and whether pvp or pve, warsong for enhancement is a BAD CALL.

What you're saying is wildly inaccurate for discussions in PvE, you are flat out incorrect, and sitting behind the argument of "no sims are wrong and you're wrong!" isn't going to make you right, when every piece of evidence in PvE goes against what you say. Given I don't attempt to reason anything about PvP, because I am not experienced in that area, I feel it would be courteous that you don't try to do the same for PvE, since you very clearly are not experienced in that area either based on how fuzzy (and inaccurate) your statements are.

"Wildly innaccurate" according to who? A wannabe expert who is parroting the same tired tripe available on countless "how to gear shaman" threads and forums. Are you really that dense that you cannot discern blind repetition from actual evaluation? You are clearly inexperienced in basic arithmetic if you cannot understand why warsong is bad for enhancement or any other melee spec.

Let's do some numbers:
Warsong gives you 1000 haste per proc approximately 1 time per minute.

Full 20 sec on target uptime:
1000 + 900 + 800 + 700 + 600 + 500 + 400 + 300 + 200 + 100 = (5500 / 10) = (550 * 1.05) = 577 effective haste rating

14 sec on target uptime (6 sec out of range):
700 + 600 + 500 + 400 + 300 + 200 + 100 = (2800 / 7) = (400 * 1.05) = 420 effective haste rating

(577 - 420) = 157 <---- Those 6 seconds of being out of melee range resulted in a 27.2% reduction in effective haste.

12 sec on target uptime (8 sec CC, i.e. 1 fear):
600 + 500 + 400 + 300 + 200 + 100 = (2100 / 6) = (350 * 1.05) = 367 effective haste rating

(577 - 367) = 210 <---- After one full-duration fear, 8 sec, your warsong proc gave up 36.4% of its effective haste rating.


Now the real "kicker" here is that you really only need to miss 4 seconds of uptime for warsong to be WORSE than ANY of the other weapon enchants in terms of the effective haste you'd gain if you were on target for the remaining 16 sec of the buff.

(I also find it really funny that you quoted all I said, aside from very specifically when I mentioned that haste buffs only change your spell cooldown on-press effectively snapshotting them on press, since that refutes what you're saying about haste having zero value out of range)

WHEN YOU ARE OUT OF RANGE THE ONLY THING YOU CAN DO IS CAST SHOCKS. If your shock CD is 0.2 sec faster, how does that help you compared to it being 9% stronger? Nothing you've said refutes anything I've said...in fact, you've only validated my points about how BAD warsong is for melee.

IF YOU ARE MELEE AND YOU ARE USING WARSONG YOU FAIL, end of story. It's obviously a very good enchant for certain ranged classes like affliction locks or spriests...but no melee with half a brain is going to run warsong on any weapon, ever. It's just that bad.

4 seconds is all you need to miss for warsong to be worse than even shattered hand.

[wordup]

You are following the generic forum advice of "haste until you are 50%". Versatility is a better pvp stat, so is mastery. Deal with it or continue being a pay-for-rating baddie.

Your time is beyond worthless.



You don't seem to get how worthless logs are in terms of relating to actual gameplay...and whether pvp or pve, warsong for enhancement is a BAD CALL.



"Wildly innaccurate" according to who? A wannabe expert who is parroting the same tired tripe available on countless "how to gear shaman" threads and forums. Are you really that dense that you cannot discern blind repetition from actual evaluation? You are clearly inexperienced in basic arithmetic if you cannot understand why warsong is bad for enhancement or any other melee spec.

Let's do some numbers:
Warsong gives you 1000 haste per proc approximately 1 time per minute.

Full 20 sec on target uptime:
1000 + 900 + 800 + 700 + 600 + 500 + 400 + 300 + 200 + 100 = (5500 / 10) = (550 * 1.05) = 577 effective haste rating

14 sec on target uptime (6 sec out of range):
700 + 600 + 500 + 400 + 300 + 200 + 100 = (2800 / 7) = (400 * 1.05) = 420 effective haste rating

(577 - 420) = 157 <---- Those 6 seconds of being out of melee range resulted in a 27.2% reduction in effective haste.

12 sec on target uptime (8 sec CC, i.e. 1 fear):
600 + 500 + 400 + 300 + 200 + 100 = (2100 / 6) = (350 * 1.05) = 367 effective haste rating

(577 - 367) = 210 <---- After one full-duration fear, 8 sec, your warsong proc gave up 36.4% of its effective haste rating.


Now the real "kicker" here is that you really only need to miss 4 seconds of uptime for warsong to be WORSE than ANY of the other weapon enchants in terms of the effective haste you'd gain if you were on target for the remaining 16 sec of the buff.



WHEN YOU ARE OUT OF RANGE THE ONLY THING YOU CAN DO IS CAST SHOCKS. If your shock CD is 0.2 sec faster, how does that help you compared to it being 9% stronger? Nothing you've said refutes anything I've said...in fact, you've only validated my points about how BAD warsong is for melee.

IF YOU ARE MELEE AND YOU ARE USING WARSONG YOU FAIL, end of story. It's obviously a very good enchant for certain ranged classes like affliction locks or spriests...but no melee with half a brain is going to run warsong on any weapon, ever. It's just that bad.

4 seconds is all you need to miss for warsong to be worse than even shattered hand.

Again, all of this napkin math is worthless. The amount of times you are OFF A TARGET COMPLETELY for multiple seconds is so rare in HFC this is completely and totally moot; not to mention you completely ignoring the fact that the enchant could simply not proc in these extremely rare situations, nor that Warsong procs during cooldowns is so, so, SO much more valuable than even two bleeding hollow. You are literally talking about PvP stuff to justify your PvE discussion, when I have no interest nor care in how enchants are for PvP because it is not my thing.

Refuting all the evidence that is there and proposing that your wonky irrelevant napkin math is the be all and end all of whether an enchant is good, then going even further and say that it's from a gameplay perspective is frankly ridiculous.

[Professor Expert]

Again, all of this napkin math is worthless. The amount of times you are OFF A TARGET COMPLETELY for multiple seconds is so rare in HFC this is completely and totally moot; not to mention you completely ignoring the fact that the enchant could simply not proc in these extremely rare situations, nor that Warsong procs during cooldowns is so, so, SO much more valuable than even two bleeding hollow. You are literally talking about PvP stuff to justify your PvE discussion, when I have no interest nor care in how enchants are for PvP because it is not my thing.

No, it's not napkin math. It's actual math. I know it's a little hard for you to understand but there it is.

I take plenty of damage in dungeons and raids. If ONLY the tanks took damage they be a little too easy...so let's put this whole myth to rest. You will take damage, and your enchants will proc on lightning shield while you are still out of range.

Some bosses require avoiding certain attacks or chasing adds. That easily eats up those 4 initial seconds that make warsong slightly better than bleeding hollow..

Most players PvP. Full-time raids and dungeons are a mini-game...so let's talk about this through the context of what MOST players do - PVP, and in pvp warsong is pure trash...but that didn't stop some ebay gladiator from telling us we should be running warsong on both or at least one of our weapons.

In pve it is easier to stay on target but you're still going to be off target for whatever reason, and since you only need to miss 4 seconds of uptime to make warsong worse than ANY of the other DPS weapon enchants, it's going to happen a lot more often than you think.

Refuting all the evidence that is there and proposing that your wonky irrelevant napkin math is the be all and end all of whether an enchant is good, then going even further and say that it's from a gameplay perspective is frankly ridiculous.

What is "wonky" about my math? Explain. And enough with this "napkin math" crap. It's math, plain and simple. Deal with it.

I outlined EXACTLY how warsong works. You lose 100 rating every 2 seconds, and you're obviously having difficulty in accepting the fact that YOU ARE WRONG. So keep replying and digging yourself deeper into the hole, or just grow a spine and admit that you don't really know what you're talking about. The latter would earn you respect, continuing the former just relegates you to the realm of "know-it-all troll".

[wordup]

No, it's not napkin math. It's actual math. I know it's a little hard for you to understand but there it is.

I take plenty of damage in dungeons and raids. If ONLY the tanks took damage they be a little too easy...so let's put this whole myth to rest. You will take damage, and your enchants will proc on lightning shield while you are still out of range.

Some bosses require avoiding certain attacks or chasing adds. That easily eats up those 4 initial seconds that make warsong slightly better than bleeding hollow..

Most players PvP. Full-time raids and dungeons are a mini-game...so let's talk about this through the context of what MOST players do - PVP, and in pvp warsong is pure trash...but that didn't stop some ebay gladiator from telling us we should be running warsong on both or at least one of our weapons.

In pve it is easier to stay on target but you're still going to be off target for whatever reason, and since you only need to miss 4 seconds of uptime to make warsong worse than ANY of the other DPS weapon enchants, it's going to happen a lot more often than you think.



What is "wonky" about my math? Explain. And enough with this "napkin math" crap. It's math, plain and simple. Deal with it.

I outlined EXACTLY how warsong works. You lose 100 rating every 2 seconds, and you're obviously having difficulty in accepting the fact that YOU ARE WRONG. So keep replying and digging yourself deeper into the hole, or just grow a spine and admit that you don't really know what you're talking about. The latter would earn you respect, continuing the former just relegates you to the realm of "know-it-all troll".

I'm not prepared to continue a discussion with someone who flagrantly ignores what's presented, won't actually provide evidence of any of what you're saying, nor any proof that the evidence to support what I am saying is anything other than accurate. What you have mathed out is excruciatingly basic, if Mastery was equal to Haste (it isn't) then it would be valuable, but Mastery is noticeably worse than Haste, which your calculations absolutely do not take into account.

Also, stop trying to drag this back to PvP, I have no interest in that whatsoever, I have made it abundantly clear I am not interested in it nor have any intention of answering any questions from that perspective. It's also entirely irrelevant to PvE discussion; instead of trying to drag my character through the mud in an attempt to make me submit to your opinion (mathing out a value of an enchant then slapping on "but in this scenario it has to be worse!" does nothing) without any fact or reason (I have never, in my life this expansion, seen double Bleeding Hollow outperform someone using Warsong provided equal skill/gear; nor have I found it outperform when I actually have tried it myself) but just blind waving numbers around that prove nothing at all.