Lor'themar and the Divine Bell

[arizonapriest93]

Hypotheticals here, but anyone else wonder how the Forsaken, specifically Sylvanis (sp), would have reacted IF the Blood Elves actually did section off to the Alliance lore wise? I think it would have been rather interesting, considering the squeeze that puts on the Forsaken's lands, being entirely surrounded.

[Aeula]

I think Garrosh ordered it dumped there to ruin the negotiations, can't exactly explain away a 'stolen' giant bell in your garden.

Also the Lor'themar is ruler of all Sin'dorei, including the 'neutral' (sunreaver's were never neutral anyway, they were the horde representatives of Dalaran, ambassadors if you will) ones.

[Kallisto]

lol

"baseless claims"

can only come from a Horde player

Mained alliance in MOP, played both sides in 5.1 . Anyone without bias can see that Jaina was at fault and anyone with an IQ more than 2 can tell you that collective punishment is NEVER allowable. 99.9% of Sunreavers are just Blood Elves who are 100% loyal to Dalaran.

[Aeula]

lol

"baseless claims"

can only come from a Horde player

Wow nice comeback, so constructive. Could only come from a blind alliance player who read the questline on wowpedia instead of playing it.

[KyrtF]

Why would it be OOC when the refugees are getting dumped in Silvermoon right in front of him?

Because Jaina was being quite vocal about the Sunreavers actions as the reason why she was doing it, and given the Sunreavers past...that wasn't an implausible scenario. And - being someone who kicked out a full tenth of his population for less cause - he should at least be willing to entertain the notion that the Sunreavers might have had some part to play in this. Instead, he appears to blindly accept their version. Maybe he did do some investigation...but I think his story would have been better if that had been clarified.

Mained alliance in MOP, played both sides in 5.1 . Anyone without bias can see that Jaina was at fault and anyone with an IQ more than 2 can tell you that collective punishment is NEVER allowable. 99.9% of Sunreavers are just Blood Elves who are 100% loyal to Dalaran.

None of the Sunreavers are 100% loyal to Dalaran. Most - if not all of them - are from Silvermoon, recruited by Aethas after the events of ItSotS and all of them are Horde loyalists simply because of what they are.

Aethas was right not to tell Jaina about the plan he discovered. Like every other Sunreaver, his loyalty is not to Dalaran but to his people, and the Horde. The Sunreavers were allowed to exist on Dalaran as Horde ambassadors of a sort.

[Adunai]

At the time, Lor'themar should have had absolutely no say in Sunreaver affair. The Sunreavers had sworn neutrality in joining Dalaran.

So Lor'themar didn't know. He had no knowledge of inner Sunreaver affairs. Frankly, that Jaina had explelled the Sunreavers should have had no impact on the negotiations. The Sunreavers were no longer a related political body.

I never understood why Lor'themar broke the negotiations off. He shouldn't have cared what happened to the Sunreavers.

In my opinion, that's because he valued the elven blood in their veins more than their actions.

[Mehrunes]

Hypotheticals here, but anyone else wonder how the Forsaken, specifically Sylvanis (sp), would have reacted IF the Blood Elves actually did section off to the Alliance lore wise? I think it would have been rather interesting, considering the squeeze that puts on the Forsaken's lands, being entirely surrounded.

How again would it surround the Forsaken, considering they don't share a border with Quel'thalas and the only other remotely relevant Alliance outpost in the entire continent is Aerie Peak?

[Aeula]

Because Jaina was being quite vocal about the Sunreavers actions as the reason why she was doing it, and given the Sunreavers past...that wasn't an implausible scenario. And - being someone who kicked out a full tenth of his population for less cause - he should at least be willing to entertain the notion that the Sunreavers might have had some part to play in this. Instead, he appears to blindly accept their version. Maybe he did do some investigation...but I think his story would have been better if that had been clarified.



None of the Sunreavers are 100% loyal to Dalaran. Most - if not all of them - are from Silvermoon, recruited by Aethas after the events of ItSotS and all of them are Horde loyalists simply because of what they are.

Aethas was right not to tell Jaina about the plan he discovered. Like every other Sunreaver, his loyalty is not to Dalaran but to his people, and the Horde. The Sunreavers were allowed to exist on Dalaran as Horde ambassadors of a sort.

Investigating the sunreaver's would be like investigating the victims of the holocaust to make sure they didn't deserve it, it would be a stupid idea. Besides the sunreaver's told the truth, Jaina was the one who jumped to conclusions and instigated a massacre.

[Deleted]

How again would it surround the Forsaken, considering they don't share a border with Quel'thalas and the only other remotely relevant Alliance outpost in the entire continent is Aerie Peak?

I think it is more about Sylvanas being an elf and the main Forsaken body being of Lordareon descent. Sylvanas would feel left out. The Blood elves rejoined the Alliance but she herself couldn't and neither could her people. And she hates Garrosh just as much as the next person

[arcaneshot]

Because Jaina was being quite vocal about the Sunreavers actions as the reason why she was doing it,

You're acting like Lor'themar is connected to the Internet and Jaina posted on Twitter that she's kicking out all the Sunreavers. Jaina started her rampage at the same time she made her declaration-- she's even still in the middle of the purge by the time the Horde player gets there.

[Rhlor]

You're acting like Lor'themar is connected to the Internet and Jaina posted on Twitter that she's kicking out all the Sunreavers. Jaina started her rampage at the same time she made her declaration-- she's even still in the middle of the purge by the time the Horde player gets there.

twitter is part of WoW

[arizonapriest93]

How again would it surround the Forsaken, considering they don't share a border with Quel'thalas and the only other remotely relevant Alliance outpost in the entire continent is Aerie Peak?

Because, in addition to what Bambs said, while no direct borders are shared one must still consider, that leaves An alliance force semi north of the Forsaken, Gilneas (whatever the hell is happening there right now, claiming alliance for now but honestly could be either) on the south western border. The dwarves and the humans to the south. Ask Germany how things go when you have enemies on both sides of you. (Elves push from the Plaguelands, humans/worgen/dwarves push from Silverpine, pushing Forsaken against the water).

Further, the forces could also combine for an attack from the Plaguelands sides, simply because the Elves, whom previously held a good tactical position against any who attempted this type of attack (being able to put pressure on the other side of the offensive push in this defensive scenario), are now attacking from this direction. And while yes there are larger factors at play here (weapon strategies, force number, involvement of others within Faction (rest of Horde forces), this hypothetical scenario does create an uneasy pressure on the Forsaken, as they are effectively surrounded.

I had a "nice" (ms paint lololol) map depicting this, but I'm at work presently...

Tl;dr leads to a lot of easier troop movement, shorter supply lines/chains, and a more defined combat front (removes potential of a dual front war by adding the Blood Elves to the hypothetical offensive).

[Mehrunes]

Because, in addition to what Bambs said, while no direct borders are shared one must still consider, that leaves An alliance force semi north of the Forsaken, Gilneas (whatever the hell is happening there right now, claiming alliance for now but honestly could be either) on the south western border.

Alliance withdrew from Gilneas years ago. And Forsaken had years to march into an empty zone and fortify the shit out of it.

The dwarves and the humans to the south. Ask Germany how things go when you have enemies on both sides of you. (Elves push from the Plaguelands, humans/worgen/dwarves push from Silverpine, pushing Forsaken against the water).

In this case, the enemies south that "create" this imaginary "pressure from both sides" are far as fuck. It's like saying that Germany would be surrounded if they had hostile relations with both Finland and Congo. Also, the forces from the south have kinda shit entry points into Lordaeron continent. Furthermore, Silverpine is kinda Forsaken territory since vanilla, so it would be rather hard for humans/worgen/dwarves to start their push there.

Further, the forces could also combine for an attack from the Plaguelands sides, simply because the Elves, whom previously held a good tactical position against any who attempted this type of attack (being able to put pressure on the other side of the offensive push in this defensive scenario), are now attacking from this direction. And while yes there are larger factors at play here (weapon strategies, force number, involvement of others within Faction (rest of Horde forces), this hypothetical scenario does create an uneasy pressure on the Forsaken, as they are effectively surrounded.

Or the Forsaken withdraw from Tranquillien and the Dead Scar Scourge run amok tying Thalassian forces. Moreover, there are Argent Crusade controlled Eastern Plaguelands in the way. They are unlikely to welcome Alliance turning their territory into a war zone. And while Alliance marches north to die by the thousands on Thandol Span, Garrosh's fleet sails to Stormwind.

[arizonapriest93]

snip

Fair points, may I counter? I would make a number of comments about our hypothetical war here, which is fun, I honestly typed it up but we would go back and forth. It is too hypothetical for any concrete, and honestly there are too many variables in WoW warfare, portals, airships/zeps, and many, many others.

My initial, and still current point, is that it really leaves the Forsaken territories rather exposed, with potential troop movements being able to move and put a ton of pressure onto the Forsaken lands, then before when the Belves aided in reducing some of these potential threats.

Further also, like Bambs said before, I imagine Slyv being quite upset about her former people siding with the Alliance. It is just interesting to consider.

To recap, your points are valid, I just do not wish to engage in a back-n-forth about a hypothetical situation within another hypothetical situation.

Side note: kotor 2 ftw

[KyrtF]

Besides the sunreaver's told the truth, Jaina was the one who jumped to conclusions and instigated a massacre.

No...they didn't tell the truth. Aethas did know and he did look the other way. Dalaran found out the Sunreavers were involved and expelled them...and some fought.

[DeicideUH]

FACT: Someone within the Sunreavers used the Sunreavers' place in Dalaran to access the city's resourses, bypass Alliance's defenses and steal a weapon of mass destruction.

FACT: Aethas knew about it, but did nothing to stop it or warn the Kirin Tor, essentially betraying the trust of the Kirin Tor and endangering his own people.

FACT: Silvermoon was used to harbor the stolen bell. Lorthemar could have returned the well as a gesture of good will to Jaina and use it as a way to reestablish diplomatic relations with Dalaran and free the captured Sunreavers. As he was negotiating with Varian, he could even ask for Alliance protection of Quel'thalas in order to avoid Garrosh's wrath. Instead, he chose to do Garrosh's bidding and give him the Divine Bell, thus endangering the Alliance even more.

It's undeniable that the blood elf leaders endangered their own people by betraying Dalaran's trust. To blame Jaina for just reacting to that treason is to shift responsability from the perpetrators of the act to the victims.

The Sunreavers weren't involved.
Nothing can justify this razzia that Jaina started, nothing.

That's a lie. Playing as Horde you can see that the SUnreavers allowed the Horde access to Darnassus throught their portals.

[Rhlor]

FACT: Someone within the Sunreavers used the Sunreavers' place in Dalaran to access the city's resourses, bypass Alliance's defenses and steal a weapon of mass destruction.

FACT: Aethas knew about it, but did nothing to stop it or warn the Kirin Tor, essentially betraying the trust of the Kirin Tor and endangering his own people.

FACT: Silvermoon was used to harbor the stolen bell. Lorthemar could have returned the well as a gesture of good will to Jaina and use it as a way to reestablish diplomatic relations with Dalaran and free the captured Sunreavers. As he was negotiating with Varian, he could even ask for Alliance protection of Quel'thalas in order to avoid Garrosh's wrath. Instead, he chose to do Garrosh's bidding and give him the Divine Bell, thus endangering the Alliance even more.

It's undeniable that the blood elf leaders endangered their own people by betraying Dalaran's trust. To blame Jaina for just reacting to that treason is to shift responsability from the perpetrators of the act to the victims.



That's a lie. Playing as Horde you can see that the SUnreavers allowed the Horde access to Darnassus throught their portals.

Jaina was helping the alliance in Darnassus and use troops of the alliance in the purge

[Xerra]

Hypotheticals here, but anyone else wonder how the Forsaken, specifically Sylvanis (sp), would have reacted IF the Blood Elves actually did section off to the Alliance lore wise? I think it would have been rather interesting, considering the squeeze that puts on the Forsaken's lands, being entirely surrounded.

I think a more interesting what if was during the war crimes novel what if Sylvanas's sister didn't chicken out at the last minute and they assassinated Garrosh and had her join Sylvanas. I would have loved the blood elves coming to the horde and moving back into Silvermoon. A Windrunner in charge of the whole Blood elf/High elve race and another in charge of the Forsaken. Heck... Sylvanas's nephews could actually live and grow up in the city of their people. It would have imo ironically healed a lot of woulds at the cost of a little poison.

[RagnorZ]

The Sunreavers weren't involved.
Nothing can justify this razzia that Jaina started, nothing.

Apart from all the previous horde related betrayals, no surprise Jaina snapped

[Kallisto]

Apart from all the previous horde related betrayals, no surprise Jaina snapped

What betrayals?

Theramore doesn't count it was at war with the horde. It hosted alliance troops, took part in alliance military actions against the horde during Cata.

Wrathgate doesn't count because that was not the horde but a rebel forsaken faction that decided to join the legion.

Divine bell doesn't count because only 1 sunreaver was involve, the rest were garrosh loyalists not related to Dalaran.