An EXCELLENT Solution to the Excessive CC in PvP

[Professor Expert]

I play an enhancement shaman and so I'm used to getting by with very flaky CC. I have a casted poly with a long CD (casting as melee = fail) and a totem that requires an enemy to stand next to at the moment it detonates to score a dispellable 4 sec stun. The point being that it is very possible for this game to be fun and competitive with drastically reduced CC.

What kind of CC am I referring to? We're talking about "loss of control" CC like stun, silence, disorient, sleep, charm - not roots/snares. My solution is quite simple:

a) The PvP trinket that everyone (other than humans) use now causes players to become IMMUNE to any loss-of-control CC that it dispels for at least 8 sec. Basic feature.

b) An improved version of the pvp trinket can be obtained which not only provides immunity to CCs dispelled, but also has its cooldown lowered by the maximum potential duration of whatever loss-of-control CC you are afflicted by when the trinket is on CD. Note that this means that a CC that can last up to 8 secs will always cause an 8 sec reduction in the CD of the trinket even if DR causes the CC to last less than 8 seconds - i.e. fear or poly spam.

Examples:
- If you got hit for a 6 sec stun and the CD was at 120 sec, the trinket would immediately have its CD reduced by 6 sec to 114 sec but you'd ride out the entire stun.

- Now if you had 5 sec left on the trinket's CD and got hit by a 6 sec stun, your trinket would become available immediately and you could trinket the stun and then be immune to all stuns for at least 8 sec.

This small, easy to implement modification fixes the excessive CC problem without breaking any classes because it's available to all players.

This change adds some risk currently missing from careless use of CC. A mage spamming poly, a lock spamming fear or a druid spamming cyclone, for example, can greatly shorten the CD of that target's trinket because each time the target is hit, the CD of the trinket is cut down by the full duration of the CC not the actual duration (which may be lower due to DR).

These changes to the trinket WILL NOT apply to the human racial, EMFH, which will retain its current functionality. This gives players that chose human the option to go for CC reduction or continue using double DPS trinkets, because now the pvp trinket will be slightly better than EMFH.

[solarfallz]

The last thing we need is to exacerbate the arms-race of CC vs anti-CC/mobility. CC immunities in general are just awful and more often than not simply result in you dying to something you can't do anything about. The real solution is to make more CCs avoidable in one way or another. Polymorph, for example, on its own, is a completely fine spell. Interruptable, LOSable, dispellable. But you add FOF + Deep Freeze into the mix, and suddenly you've got a guaranteed sheep (well, still dispellable). All of the original drawbacks of CCs (cast times, short ranges, etc) are now invalidated by other abilities or talents. Fear originally had a 20 yard range, no pushback protection on its cast time, with no guaranteed setup for it until they buffed deathcoil, and even then, 2 minute cooldown on one target. Now every 30 seconds you can AOE stun for a guaranteed fear with shadowfury, or any of the other various setups.

[Philomene]

a) The PvP trinket that everyone (other than humans) use now causes players to become IMMUNE to any loss-of-control CC that it dispels for at least 8 sec. Basic feature.

This will only promote mindless tunneling. For example, turbo will not even try to stop the incoming CC. They will use their trinket, burst and will be free for 8 seconds. No, thanks.

b) An improved version of the pvp trinket can be obtained which not only provides immunity to CCs dispelled, but also has its cooldown lowered by the maximum potential duration of whatever loss-of-control CC you are afflicted by when the trinket is on CD. Note that this means that a CC that can last up to 8 secs will always cause an 8 sec reduction in the CD of the trinket even if DR causes the CC to last less than 8 seconds - i.e. fear or poly spam.

No, we don't any more anti-CC, the problem is that classes that setup by themselves a long CC chain, setuping a CC chain should require more teamwork than a class throwing an instant CC to get his own spammable CC (or CC on different DRs/schools).

[Theed]

Melee tunneling is already at the worst state ever. Bad suggestion. CC immunity needs to go, spammable cc needs to be nerfed.

[Professor Expert]

The last thing we need is to exacerbate the arms-race of CC vs anti-CC/mobility. CC immunities in general are just awful and more often than not simply result in you dying to something you can't do anything about. The real solution is to make more CCs avoidable in one way or another. Polymorph, for example, on its own, is a completely fine spell. Interruptable, LOSable, dispellable. But you add FOF + Deep Freeze into the mix, and suddenly you've got a guaranteed sheep (well, still dispellable). All of the original drawbacks of CCs (cast times, short ranges, etc) are now invalidated by other abilities or talents. Fear originally had a 20 yard range, no pushback protection on its cast time, with no guaranteed setup for it until they buffed deathcoil, and even then, 2 minute cooldown on one target. Now every 30 seconds you can AOE stun for a guaranteed fear with shadowfury, or any of the other various setups.

This isn't setting up an arms race because it's available to ALL players who equip the trinket. None of the points you've raised highlight any problems with my suggestion, in fact you make my point for me - it makes pulling off CCs more difficult.

Polymorph is not "fine" because interrupts have been severely crippled, and it doesn't exist in a vacuum - which you seem to almost get. Forcing players to think carefully about how they use CC rather than spamming them "because they can" is not the kind of paradigm this game needs.

This will only promote mindless tunneling. For example, turbo will not even try to stop the incoming CC. They will use their trinket, burst and will be free for 8 seconds. No, thanks.

It would help if you read what I wrote. The trinket does not make you immune to any CC it does not dispel. If you are not stunned, and you use the trinket, you will not be immune to stuns.

Even if your assertion was correct, you're suggesting that a player being able to play is a bad thing, and that you should be able to CC them into irrelevance because you're too bad as a player to win any other way. NO THANKS. We don't need the game populated by players like yourself who rely on anti-competitive mechanics to advance.

No, we don't any more anti-CC, the problem is that classes that setup by themselves a long CC chain, setuping a CC chain should require more teamwork than a class throwing an instant CC to get his own spammable CC (or CC on different DRs/schools).

Because we have so much anti-CC? We have one trinket with a 2 min CD and some classes get a pseudo-trinket that removes certain CC effects. CC chaining is not competitive play, and it's time to end that kind of crap. If you can't win any other way, i.e. by playing your class and making intelligent choices with regards to CD management and positioning, you do not deserve to win. Stunning/CCing your way to 2.2K is not skill. Voicechat is not skill.

Melee tunneling is already at the worst state ever. Bad suggestion. CC immunity needs to go, spammable cc needs to be nerfed.

There is no CC immunity so WTF needs to go? Hey, genius, CC is not being removed, it's being weakened...so your silly claim that melee "tunneling" is a problem, but it's ok for ranged to kite/CC their way to a win? No.

The improved pvp trinket allows CC to work as it does not, provides limited immunity only when it dispels a class of CC, and has its CD reduced by the duration of incoming CC.

A 30 sec CD to stop a DPS window with 3 min CD is NOT a valid trade....and anyone who thinks they should be able to doesn't really belong in pvp. So many whiners that think they're entitled to win...so sad.

[Philomene]

It would help if you read what I wrote. The trinket does not make you immune to any CC it does not dispel. If you are not stunned, and you use the trinket, you will not be immune to stuns.

And which CC do you think turbo is weak to ? Fear ? Hex ? Slows ? Do you think a turbo will use their trinket on any other CC than a stun ?

[Professor Expert]

And which CC do you think turbo is weak to ? Fear ? Hex ? Slows ? Do you think a turbo will use their trinket on any other CC than a stun ?

Your point? Do you think that being able to stun another player is an entitlement? It's not, and citing a single 3s comp that you have a problem with personally as if it is a valid basis to argue my suggestion to improve pvp trinkets just isn't happening.

You are attempting to push the notion that, "I rely on near-perma CC of my opponents to win, without it I'm just a scrub who complains everyone else is OP. Your idea is bad because if it were implemented, I'd actually have to L2play instead MINDLESSLY of spamming CC."

[solarfallz]

This isn't setting up an arms race because it's available to ALL players who equip the trinket. None of the points you've raised highlight any problems with my suggestion, in fact you make my point for me - it makes pulling off CCs more difficult.

Yes, it does highlight the problems. I will quote myself: "CC immunities in general are just awful and more often than not simply result in you dying to something you can't do anything about." CC immunities are what made beast cleave so good in Wrath, for example. 8 seconds of CC immunity does not "make pulling off CCs more difficult", it simply makes it impossible... for 8 seconds. If you've ever played a caster and had a DK offensively AMS for 7 seconds when you have no defensive CDs up, you will know exactly what I'm talking about. It doesn't take any sort of skill or strategy to run at someone and spam DPS at them because you're immune to CCs for X duration.

[Philomene]

Your point? Do you think that being able to stun another player is an entitlement? It's not, and citing a single 3s comp that you have a problem with personally as if it is a valid basis to argue my suggestion to improve pvp trinkets just isn't happening.

You are attempting to push the notion that, "I rely on near-perma CC of my opponents to win, without it I'm just a scrub who complains everyone else is OP. Your idea is bad because if it were implemented, I'd actually have to L2play instead MINDLESSLY of spamming CC."

I think you should quit definitively this game if you think the game should be designed about damage and not smart usage of CC, using CC is more difficult than pumping out unhealable damage.

[Professor Expert]

Yes, it does highlight the problems. I will quote myself: "CC immunities in general are just awful and more often than not simply result in you dying to something you can't do anything about." CC immunities are what made beast cleave so good in Wrath, for example. 8 seconds of CC immunity does not "make pulling off CCs more difficult", it simply makes it impossible... for 8 seconds. If you've ever played a caster and had a DK offensively AMS for 7 seconds when you have no defensive CDs up, you will know exactly what I'm talking about. It doesn't take any sort of skill or strategy to run at someone and spam DPS at them because you're immune to CCs for X duration.

Are you really telling us that it takes more skill to CC someone and attack them while they cannot do anything, than it does for a DPS to chase a target who is actively evading them, using defensives, using LoS, applying snares/roots, etc. You are such a tool for making these asinine comments. If you disagree with me, at least come up with a valid argument. You seem to believe that you deserve to win most of the time, and you don't.

Let me repeat myself again...IT IS NOT A GLOBAL CC IMMUNITY. Yes, you will die more often and you won't be able to save yourself with a 'well timed stun' every single time. You can easily flip your assessment around to say:

"CC immunity in general is great and more often than not prevents bad players who think they're gods from surviving imminent defeat by using CC to shut down their opponent, allowing themselves time to recover or run away."

If a player is immune to a CC after using a trinket, that means you already used a CC and they responded with using their trinket, which now gives them 8 sec of immunity LIMITED TO the classes of CC that were dispelled. You are foolishly crying about this limited 8 sec immunity every 2 mins or so, an immunity that only exists if the trinket dispels a particular class of CC.

If a poly is dispelled by the trinket, then player gets 8 sec of immunity to poly but not stun, disorient or fear. THAT is strategy.

When you know that spamming poly, fear or any other loss-of-control CC will cause the trinket's CD to be lowered by the max duration of said CC, you will be forced to think twice about abusing DR by doing the 8-4-2-1 spam -- a whopping 15 sec of CC from just one class of CC and this nutbag thinks an 8 sec immunity to said class of CC is somehow unfair. Wow...you are ridiculous, and clearly part of the problem!

Yes, 8 seconds of CC immunity helps to stop morons from shutting down a burst window with a cheap, no skill CC. It also forces them to use CCs at times when they may not want to...so it adds a lot more depth. This depth and enhanced skill requirement seems to send shivers down the spines of players who love to whine on and on about how they need to be able to CC to win. Pathetic.

I think you should quit definitively this game if you think the game should be designed about damage and not smart usage of CC, using CC is more difficult than pumping out unhealable damage.

Is that what I think? Because if that's your takeaway, you are showing a boundless ineptitude for grasping simple concepts encoded in this thing we call the English language.

Unhealable damage? No...just no.

My suggestion does not eliminate CC, it MITIGATES CC. Right now your usage of CC is thoughtless - after my suggestion is implemented, it becomes tactical. You not only have to consider that using CC can result in immunity to said CC, but multiple attackers spamming CC on a single target are now penalized for doing so - and rightly so.

Spamming poly, fear or cycling "because you can" is not smart usage, it's dumb usage which should not be rewarding players with victories in competitive pvp...and because my suggestion excludes roots and snares from the CC immunity, you can still kite or manage melee by rooting them. In other words, you'd actually have to actually be good to win, not just rely on a spammable CC crutch to limp by.

[nexellent]

so you want every comp like TSG/turbo? go back to pve.

[Professor Expert]

so you want every comp like TSG/turbo? go back to pve.

Let's give the hyperbole a rest.

[solarfallz]

In the middle of writing an actual response, I realized I'm arguing with someone who doesn't even know how DR works.

8-4-2-1 spam -- a whopping 15 sec of CC

lol

Life repeats itself, I think I've had a similar realization about the same person in the past.

[Stormspellz]

spammable cc following instant cc from the same class is the problem.

[Professor Expert]

In the middle of writing an actual response, I realized I'm arguing with someone who doesn't even know how DR works.

It works as stated. Full, half, half, immune. An 8 sec poly > 4 sec > 2 sec > immune...ok 14 sec instead of 15 sec and you think you've "won" the debate?

LOL

Life repeats itself, I think I've had a similar realization about the same person in the past.

Yes, you disagreed with me before and were proven wrong because you take an indefensible position, and then try to save face by nitpicking irrelevant technicalities that ignore the main topic.

Bottom line, my solution works without breaking the game...and bads like you that depend too much on CC will hopefully unsub or at least return to pve where you belong.

[Mazaxist]

It works as stated. Full, half, half, immune. An 8 sec poly > 4 sec > 2 sec > immune...ok 14 sec instead of 15 sec and you think you've "won" the debate?

LOL



Yes, you disagreed with me before and were proven wrong because you take an indefensible position, and then try to save face by nitpicking irrelevant technicalities that ignore the main topic.

Bottom line, my solution works without breaking the game...and bads like you that depend too much on CC will hopefully unsub or at least return to pve where you belong.

poly is the only cc that heals your enemy. that's why no cd. it also DR's with other stuff and can be interrupted!

[Professor Expert]

poly is the only cc that heals your enemy. that's why no cd. it also DR's with other stuff and can be interrupted!

Sure, it heals you, but that's hardly relevant esp if it is used on you when you have full HP as it often is, to lock one player down while one of the other two get nuked...assuming 3v3 here.

And in 3s, you keep saying "it's interruptible" like that balances the scales. No, it doesn't. ALL interrupts have been nerfed to have long CDs and shorter duration. You can pummel a poly...if you are in melee range of a mage and he decides to cast poly rather than make distance. That locks the mage out for 4 sec while I wait 15 sec on the CD. It's quite easy to root/snare a melee and get 3 unhindered poly casts onto a single target, effectively locking them down for 14 sec.

You cannot be OK with 14 sec of CC on a single target, back to back EVERY 15 sec (as the DR clock resets every 15 sec) and then cry about my idea to provide 8 sec of immunity to classes of CC that are dispelled when the trinket is used once every 2 mins.

Case in point, the only arguments against my idea have come from heavily biased players that know their position on the pvp food chain is higher than it should be, because they have CC abilities that are outdated and unbalanced with the overall paradigm of the game...my trinket improvements fix the issue by making CCs a lot less effective, forcing players to play smarter or lose - AS IT SHOULD BE.

[o0DarkMaxx0o]

So, a mage keeps you on polly, poly have a 1.5 sec cast, he have time to cast like 2 fb, then poly, then 1 fb, then poly, nothing, poly, imune. If the mage doest that his dmg will be trash. I can't se the problem here...
Now, if we have a cordinated team that, Poly, Fear, Cyclone. Well props to them they need for work as a team. Not like facerool the keyboard to tunel some1.

[Professor Expert]

So, a mage keeps you on polly, poly have a 1.5 sec cast, he have time to cast like 2 fb, then poly, then 1 fb, then poly, nothing, poly, imune. If the mage doest that his dmg will be trash. I can't se the problem here...
Now, if we have a cordinated team that, Poly, Fear, Cyclone. Well props to them they need for work as a team. Not like facerool the keyboard to tunel some1.

If only mages had an ability called icy veins that granted them 40% haste for 20 sec...on top of their baseline haste which is probably going to be at least 15%, a total of ~55%.

1.5 sec cast * 0.45 = 0.675 sec cast time
2.0 sec cast * 0.45 = 0.900 sec cast time
2.5 sec cast * 0.45 = 1.125 sec cast time

Also, their 1.5 sec GCD is also reduced to 0.675 sec, unless they're still using a different calculation in applying haste...but in any event, it's very quick...near instant...and since icy veins gets reset by cold snap so its 3 min CD is rather meaningless.

The first poly lasts 8 sec if not trinketed, so if the team forces a trinket then goes for CC spam, that's 8 sec, 4 sec, 2 sec then immune. All the while, the mage can be unloading on the target. His DPS doesn't need to be at max level to contribute substantially to the kill, so the less-than one second of time spent poly-ing and re-poly-ing a target does not account for a substantial DPS loss.

No special coordination is required other than having a focus macro that includes a line like: "/say Polymorphing %t" and your team will know not to attack that target. Next, other DPS using the target assist feature proceed to blow up an opposing player. You don't even need voice chat if you have 1/2 a brain and some extremely basic macros...hell, you don't even need text chat. So way to overstate the "skill" required to cast a poly. DATS SO SKILL MUN!

I don't think anyone intelligent is still throwing around tired old terms like "faceroll". Nobody is facerolling in 3v3 because of excessive, and if you think they are, you're just proving that you've never broken 1000 in any bracket let alone 3v3.

[Reposed]

I kinda wish they had a dodge ability incorporated, much like what they have in GW2. Seriously though, after playing GW2 for a while and then coming back, it (WoW combat) felt kinda...dumb.