Creations of the gods

[Mace]

simple it's because this is the bit that blizzard didn't say:
they said the first two bits, but it was wowpedia that said this bit, not blizzard, that conclusion is a fan theory, that seems to make sense, but actually doesn't when you delve down into it based on other information.

e.g. the well makes beings bigger, but Elves are smaller than trolls to start with.. the well doesn't alter anatomy shape, it doens't make 3 fingers become 5 or convert tusks to fangs and change face structure.. it merely enhances a being... according to all records of what the well does.. it is gods or powerf beings that are able to do things like that, people like the Titans, or elune. There is also a possiblity as well that the specific group of trolls that became elves we know always looked more like elves than the other trolls and it's just a naming thing, they always had 5 fingers and toes, and two fangs instead of tusks - no one has seen what those trolls looked like, we assume they are like the dark trolls we see in WC3, but blizzard has not specifially said it was thaose trolls, furthermore they have mentioned that non one has seen the rumoured lost dark troll tribe persay.. so we don't know.

Also the night elves say that Elune created them, Cenarius also mentions that Elune is the origin of the night elves separately, so which is true? retcon? how can they both be true? They can both be true if Elune changed trolls into Elves or eluen created Trolls as well, and some of those trolls became elves, it would also be true if Elves have always been looking like they are now but shorter and without purple skin and glowy eye s in the pre-well days, and were just considered or called trolls by the troll group who weren't that fussy about naming things, it looked troll it was troll to them, and since they were the first dominant group they would consider the elves trolls, but the evles may have called or referred to themselves differently when they started naming things and thought hang on, tha'ts too inefficient a classification, we may be much more similar to each other (i.e. the other troll groups) than the Az'aqir or the stone earthern or half bull Tauren, but we are also distinct enough to warrant being called something else, so they started calling htemselves Elves and decided that they had enough distinction because of their 5 fingers/toes and upright posture and fangs instead of tusks to be called something else. The main troll group controlled byt the Zandalarii didn't care and to them, the group would always be troll because that's what they called them.. so why do we call them Elves? Well simple, cos it's the elves that taught the humans, so obviously we get their system and methodology of classification and learning and structures, not hte trolls.

That's also a possibility. It's just that blizzard never said it was dark trolls that moved near the well of eternity.. even though they said it was trolls that became Elves, and Brann paints the picture of dark trolls leading to Elf.. it should be enough for reasonable doubt and possibly get a jump on a potential Chris Metzen surprise.

ah... so that's what has got you all hyped, you're trying to get a jump on what might be coming --haha, good luck trying, Chris is a bit of a genius.. and i must say, if your naming thing ends up being true, that'd be quite a master stroke by him, who would have guessed it was that simple? but it could equally be something else entirely that you haven't thought about.. altho I must admit, you've probably come up with the most out of the box possibilities, and possibly the only one that makes WC3 not seem like a retcon.. but there are some other good explanations elsewhere.

[Garfurion]

simple it's because this is the bit that blizzard didn't say:
they said the first two bits, but it was wowpedia that said this bit, not blizzard, that conclusion is a fan theory, that seems to make sense, but actually doesn't when you delve down into it based on other information.

In 2011, in the Ask Creative Development - Round II Answers


Q: Are night elves related to trolls in some way?
A: See issue #5 of the World of Warcraft Official Magazine!


As already stated, issue #5 states Night-Elves evolved from Dark Trolls. The World of Warcraft Official Magazine is not fan fiction it's an official Blizzard magazine.

e.g. the well makes beings bigger, but Elves are smaller than trolls to start with..

We don't know how large Trolls were 14.000 years ago. Humans have on average become a lot taller since the Middle-Ages.

the well doesn't alter anatomy shape, it doens't make 3 fingers become 5 or convert tusks to fangs and change face structure.. it merely enhances a being... according to all records of what the well does..

The pools in the vale of Eternal Blossom made murlocs evolve into Jinyu. That seems to be a much bigger change than Trolls to Night-Elves.

it is gods or powerf beings that are able to do things like that, people like the Titans, or elune. There is also a possiblity as well that the specific group of trolls that became elves we know always looked more like elves than the other trolls and it's just a naming thing, they always had 5 fingers and toes, and two fangs instead of tusks - no one has seen what those trolls looked like, we assume they are like the dark trolls we see in WC3, but blizzard has not specifially said it was thaose trolls, furthermore they have mentioned that non one has seen the rumoured lost dark troll tribe persay.. so we don't know.

World of Warcraft Magazine #5 explicitely mentions the Shadowtooth tribe of Dark Trolls which was seen in WC3. They didn't show a seperate tribe of Dark Trolls different from the Shadowtooth evolving into Night-Elves. It also states the Shadowtooth were wiped out by the Twilights Hammer.

Also the night elves say that Elune created them, Cenarius also mentions that Elune is the origin of the night elves separately, so which is true? retcon? how can they both be true? They can both be true if Elune changed trolls into Elves or eluen created Trolls as well, and some of those trolls became elves, it would also be true if Elves have always been looking like they are now but shorter and without purple skin and glowy eye s in the pre-well days, and were just considered or called trolls by the troll group who weren't that fussy about naming things, it looked troll it was troll to them, and since they were the first dominant group they would consider the elves trolls, but the evles may have called or referred to themselves differently when they started naming things and thought hang on, tha'ts too inefficient a classification, we may be much more similar to each other (i.e. the other troll groups) than the Az'aqir or the stone earthern or half bull Tauren, but we are also distinct enough to warrant being called something else, so they started calling htemselves Elves and decided that they had enough distinction because of their 5 fingers/toes and upright posture and fangs instead of tusks to be called something else. The main troll group controlled byt the Zandalarii didn't care and to them, the group would always be troll because that's what they called them.. so why do we call them Elves? Well simple, cos it's the elves that taught the humans, so obviously we get their system and methodology of classification and learning and structures, not hte trolls.

What people believe regarding their own origins is not necessarily true. According to World of Warcraft Magazine #5 Cenarius confirmed that Night-Elves evolved from Dark Trolls. This does not have to invalidate his earlier statements if you assume he means that Elune is responisble for the evolution of Night-Elven culture rather their physical transformation. She is their main deity after all and religions tend to have an effect on cultural developments.

That's also a possibility. It's just that blizzard never said it was dark trolls that moved near the well of eternity.. even though they said it was trolls that became Elves, and Brann paints the picture of dark trolls leading to Elf.. it should be enough for reasonable doubt and possibly get a jump on a potential Chris Metzen surprise.

Blizzard said that noncturnal humanoids moved near the well and evolved into the Kalderei, and they said Dark Trolls evolved into Kalderei. Since Nocturnal Humanoids doesn't rule out Dark Trolls I don't see any contradiction here.

In Tolkien's Middle-Earth the Orcs descended from the Elves, in typical Blizzard fashion they do it the other way around except with trolls and elves since orcs are aliens.

[Traveler Voltin]

We don't even know if Elune is actually a diety (remember that Velen points out that Elune could be a Naaru).

Elune, old gods, and hakkar have been confirmed to be actual gods.

[Aquamonkey]

thanks for the Draenei reference, i appreciate it. So it is a bit of a deduction on your part from that information, that they were elevated by the crystal before Sargeras approached them. One which makes sense to me even though it's not phrased in that way, and there is no other info that contradicts that as far as I know or any reason to conclude differently.

I didn't mean to imply they were literally morphologically changed by the naaru. The crystal expanded their minds and granted them access to the mysteries of the universe, it elevated them from what they were before. It may have also transformed them physically, but that's not what I meant.

Look at the information you said. but Blizzard DID NOT PUT FORWARD THAT THE NOCTURNAL HUMANOIDS WERE TROLLS...

They never said the nocturnal humanoids mentioned in the WC3 manual were trolls, not one source from them has said that, the only artiicle that makes that claim is the wowpedia article, and it is not backed up by blizzard.. it may be true, but it may easily not be true either. They (wowpedia writer) concludes because Elves come from trolls = the nocturnal humanoids that drew near the well were trolls. Blizzard never said that was the case,

They did. We've been over this before and it has been linked multiple times already.

Little is known about the night elves' precise origins, for their race was formed so long ago that no hard evidence has surfaced to prove or invalidate this theory. (Troll Compendium)

Are night elves descended from trolls? The night elf race was formed so long ago that no hard evidence has surfaced to answer this question, although it has been asked many times. All that is known for certain is that a tribe of nocturnal humanoids came to live on the shores of the first Well of Eternity, and the Well's cosmic energies changed them into the night elves we know today.

Certainly many trolls do believe that the humanoids who developed into the night elf race were trolls. The theory does have some credibility, for there is at least a superficial physical resemblance between trolls and night elves. Furthermore, the troll race dominated much of ancient Kalimdor--the only continent on Azeroth before the Great Sundering--long before the night elves came into power.

Nevertheless, many night elves find this theory preposterous and abhorrent. They are quick to point out that the first night elves began their rise to power by defeating a number of nearby troll tribes. As a consequence, the trolls came to fear and respect the might of their new rivals. The troll theory of night elf ancestry may have been a direct result of this early conflict. The trolls hated the night elves--a sentiment that persists to this day--and may have wished to marginalize the night elf race and its accomplishments. Also, attributing the night elf race with a troll heritage likely helped the trolls come to terms with their own shocking defeat.

Without additional data, there is little point in debating the merits of this controversial theory. No doubt it will remain a matter of contention for years to come. (WC Encyclopedia)

That is Blizzard putting forth the theory.

they put forward that the elves came from trolls, .. therefore blizzard did not put any confirming data as you claim..

As noted, Blizzard put forward was that the theory lacked solid evidence to confirm or deny it. Then they released the WoW Mag confirming that NElves came from dark trolls. NElves had been deny it as preposterous and abhorrent that they were in any way related to trolls. The WoW Mag calls back to this with Brann's note that this reveal will ruffle some feathers.

and by deduction from how the effect the Well has on creatures, that assumption seems quite incorrect too..what if they were already Elves by that time? it is not only a possibility, it is highly probable because everything we know about the Well points out that it doesn't change a species into another, it just enhances the species size, intelligence, strength and longevity, added to that, when the elves started using it, it added purple hue skin and glowy eyes.. the well itself doesn't just change an entire species into a completely different one.

So,.. the change must have happened before or initiated by an individual.. not an evolution.. Elf is a different species from Troll by current classification standards , and powerful beings like gods create new species, it's one of the aspects of divinity, and if the sources are pointing out that the elves are saying elune made them and cenarius is also saying that, then if elves also come from trolls, well either Elune made trolls, or Elune made elves from trolls or both. So if this was the case remember, it would ony mean WOWPEDIA article not blizzard is wrong..because blizzard never said the nocturnal humanoids were trolls, wowpedia did, blizzard said elves came from trolls.. WE don't even know how cos they never elaborated.

You say that while ignoring that the NElves look pretty close to the Zandalari.

And that's how they were always supposed to look:

Is there a Lore Reason for the Zandalari new model in 5.2? Or 'always been like that' kindof deal
We had never had the art to depict them as we envisioned, but made the time to do it in 5.2. (DaveKosak)

Dark trolls are a shitty less intelligent offshoot of the Zandalari.

Alleged sightings of dark trolls usually involve hulking and brutish creatures who attack with little tactical planning or coordinated effort. Thus, it has been theorized that dark trolls are much less intelligent than other trolls. (Troll Compendium)

Seems the Well reverted their traits back to the Zandalari and provided more enhancement.

[Al Gorefiend]

Goblins are most definitely old God creations. Kajamite is a product of old God seepage like Saronite. They may be trolls exposed to both island dwarfism and the mind-altering substance of Kajamite. Would explain their chaotic nature and prosperity so close to the proposed resting place of N'zoth. (South seas)

[ravenmoon]

okay, let's go step by step, response by response:

I didn't mean to imply they were literally morphologically changed by the naaru. The crystal expanded their minds and granted them access to the mysteries of the universe, it elevated them from what they were before. It may have also transformed them physically, but that's not what I meant.

neither did I, at least that was not what I was thinking either.. but I guess it's possible. Would be interesting if it was, but it is already interesting to find this out.

They did. We've been over this before and it has been linked multiple times already.

Little is known about the night elves' precise origins, for their race was formed so long ago that no hard evidence has surfaced to prove or invalidate this theory. (Troll Compendium)

Are night elves descended from trolls? The night elf race was formed so long ago that no hard evidence has surfaced to answer this question, although it has been asked many times. All that is known for certain is that a tribe of nocturnal humanoids came to live on the shores of the first Well of Eternity, and the Well's cosmic energies changed them into the night elves we know today.

Certainly many trolls do believe that the humanoids who developed into the night elf race were trolls. The theory does have some credibility, for there is at least a superficial physical resemblance between trolls and night elves. Furthermore, the troll race dominated much of ancient Kalimdor--the only continent on Azeroth before the Great Sundering--long before the night elves came into power.

Nevertheless, many night elves find this theory preposterous and abhorrent. They are quick to point out that the first night elves began their rise to power by defeating a number of nearby troll tribes. As a consequence, the trolls came to fear and respect the might of their new rivals. The troll theory of night elf ancestry may have been a direct result of this early conflict. The trolls hated the night elves--a sentiment that persists to this day--and may have wished to marginalize the night elf race and its accomplishments. Also, attributing the night elf race with a troll heritage likely helped the trolls come to terms with their own shocking defeat.

Without additional data, there is little point in debating the merits of this controversial theory. No doubt it will remain a matter of contention for years to come. (WC Encyclopedia)

That is Blizzard putting forth the theory.

Actually no it isn't blizzard putting forth the theory. Blizzard enjoyed our speculation over the situation and responded to it as per our request. Blizzard indeed introduced the possibility of this themselves, but as they've said in many situations, they enjoy this sort of thing. Anyway I digress... Blizzard is stating that the trolls believe those nocturnal humanoids were trolls - blizzard never says that that is actually the case, not even later at the tribunal where Cenarius is saying that the Elves came from trolls. What you have shown me is not proof that blizzard said the nocturnal humanoids were trolls, what they said was that TROLLS believed the nocturnal humanoids were trolls.. they are writing an in-game story.. and my take on the whole situation is one of two:

1. Elves were previously regarded as trolls by the trolls. What the trolls of ancient times considered trolls is different from what an elf-centric world view considers trolls. I postulate that the Elves always had 5 fingered hands/toes and fangs instead of tusks, and looked pretty much like they do now without the extra height, purple skin and glowy eyes, and were basically considered Trolls. They changed their name to elves, and when they got linked to the well and started super excelling gaining purple skin and glowy eyes, they changed their name to Kal'dorei.

2. Elune or someone else, came and transformed trolls as we think they look like now, into Elves as we think they looked like now without purple skin and glowy eyes. Those elf-trolls move near the well and when they discover how to use it and magic, they gain the purple hue, glowy eyes and immortality and become the night elves that we know.

3. What i do not believe is that the Well transformed morphologically trolls as they look like now with 3 digit hands/feet and tusks into Elves via a gradual evolution over time - because the Well doesn't do that sort of change at all, not by itself.. such a morphological change has to have been designed by someone (suspect Elune) either that or, those trolls never looked like the current trolls, and looked like elves but were just called trolls back then because that's what the dominant troll empire regarded them as, just as the Az'aqir regard all the sentient insectoids as Az'aqir even though some are very different from others.

As noted, Blizzard put forward was that the theory lacked solid evidence to confirm or deny it. Then they released the WoW Mag confirming that NElves came from dark trolls. NElves had been deny it as preposterous and abhorrent that they were in any way related to trolls. The WoW Mag calls back to this with Brann's note that this reveal will ruffle some feathers.

yes we understand the context Brann is writing under, yet we must jump to the conclusion to say Blizzard is saying the nocturnal humanoids were trolls when they did not. From an in-game perspective, the Elves have always claimed they were not trolls.. what do they mean? do they mean they were never physically looking like trolls? or do they mean they were never regarded as trolls? I think in an in-game context, the elves are saying they were never physically or sociologically part of the troll group - and this would be true if they were magically transformed from trolls - which would mean tha they are a new creation and elf, it would also be true if they were always like they are now, never regarded themselves as trolls but were considered by trolls as being troll just like we consider all the races humanoid from a human point of view, doesn't mean that each race considers themselves humanoid, and no one cared about what Elves thought of themselves until they became the most powerful empire on the planet and set the course of it's destiny. Finding everyone regarding them as Elves because they've said that's what they are..except the Troll group that refers to them as trolls, at least pre-glowy eyes days.

You say that while ignoring that the NElves look pretty close to the Zandalari.

And that's how they were always supposed to look:

Is there a Lore Reason for the Zandalari new model in 5.2? Or 'always been like that' kindof deal
We had never had the art to depict them as we envisioned, but made the time to do it in 5.2. (DaveKosak)

Dark trolls are a shitty less intelligent offshoot of the Zandalari.

Alleged sightings of dark trolls usually involve hulking and brutish creatures who attack with little tactical planning or coordinated effort. Thus, it has been theorized that dark trolls are much less intelligent than other trolls. (Troll Compendium)

Seems the Well reverted their traits back to the Zandalari and provided more enhancement.

actually it doesn't mean that at all. No one has seen what these dark trolls that were supposed to be elves actually looked like. We've seen alleged images of dark trolls but have no idea whether this is the group that became elves that we know.

Furthermore, it is ofc your opinion that the well reverted them back to the Zandalari - that has no support, because if it was the well, which I don't think it was, the end result is the night elf of today, not a zandalari, and the two look very different, furthermore, you have no idea what they are like.. if the sightings are alleged, how can you be sure they are hulking and brutish and less intelligent?

there is clearly much more mystery than you are allowing for, and lots of cracks that blizzard have intentionally put there, so they can add things later and create interesting scenarios YOU'VE never thought of, you can conclude all you want that the nocturnal humanoids were troll, they didn't explicitly say so.. you might be right, and they could easily change what you think is Troll or what was regarded as troll by painting a clearer picture of the time, you nor i don't know, based on the info they have provided, you can make a fanfic guess that the well reverted dark trolls to Zandalari - and I can make my own guesses, you can present your reasoning, I can present mine.

[Aquamonkey]

Actually no it isn't blizzard putting forth the theory. Blizzard enjoyed our speculation over the situation and responded to it as per our request. Blizzard indeed introduced the possibility of this themselves, but as they've said in many situations, they enjoy this sort of thing. Anyway I digress... Blizzard is stating that the trolls believe those nocturnal humanoids were trolls - blizzard never says that that is actually the case, not even later at the tribunal where Cenarius is saying that the Elves came from trolls. What you have shown me is not proof that blizzard said the nocturnal humanoids were trolls, what they said was that TROLLS believed the nocturnal humanoids were trolls.. they are writing an in-game story.. and my take on the whole situation is one of two:

Blizzard is codifying the theory. They specifically state there isn't enough data to prove the theory. Which they later provided in the WoW Magazine. The 2 sides of the debate were 1) the nocturnal humanoids were trolls and 2) NElves were in no way related to trolls and the trolls were just making shit up. Blizzard completely smacked down #2.

3. What i do not believe is that the Well transformed morphologically trolls as they look like now with 3 digit hands/feet and tusks into Elves via a gradual evolution over time - because the Well doesn't do that sort of change at all, not by itself.. such a morphological change has to have been designed by someone (suspect Elune) either that or, those trolls never looked like the current trolls, and looked like elves but were just called trolls back then because that's what the dominant troll empire regarded them as, just as the Az'aqir regard all the sentient insectoids as Az'aqir even though some are very different from others.

The first trolls were the Zandalari. See image linked previously.

yes we understand the context Brann is writing under, yet we must jump to the conclusion to say Blizzard is saying the nocturnal humanoids were trolls when they did not. From an in-game perspective, the Elves have always claimed they were not trolls.. what do they mean? do they mean they were never physically looking like trolls? or do they mean they were never regarded as trolls? I think in an in-game context, the elves are saying they were never physically or sociologically part of the troll group - and this would be true if they were magically transformed from trolls - which would mean tha they are a new creation and elf, it would also be true if they were always like they are now, never regarded themselves as trolls but were considered by trolls as being troll just like we consider all the races humanoid from a human point of view, doesn't mean that each race considers themselves humanoid, and no one cared about what Elves thought of themselves until they became the most powerful empire on the planet and set the course of it's destiny. Finding everyone regarding them as Elves because they've said that's what they are..except the Troll group that refers to them as trolls, at least pre-glowy eyes days.

You keep trying to disjoint the trolls from the elves. It is explicit that the NElves came from dark trolls. You keep trying to insert these weird intermediate stages and play games with morphological classifications not being appropriate to ancient lineages... NElves believe they are not related in any way to trolls... AT ALL. This is completely false. This is not about sociological descent, this is racial heredity.

actually it doesn't mean that at all. No one has seen what these dark trolls that were supposed to be elves actually looked like. We've seen alleged images of dark trolls but have no idea whether this is the group that became elves that we know.

Dark trolls are dark trolls. We've seen remnants of them in recent times and Brann got triple confirmation that dark trolls in his nomenclature led to elves. Are you saying Cenarius, Freya, and the Tribunal don't know what trolls looked like back then compared to now?

Furthermore, it is ofc your opinion that the well reverted them back to the Zandalari - that has no support, because if it was the well, which I don't think it was, the end result is the night elf of today, not a zandalari, and the two look very different, furthermore, you have no idea what they are like.. if the sightings are alleged, how can you be sure they are hulking and brutish and less intelligent?

That's why I qualified my statement with "seems." NElves regained more Zandalari traits as the Well changed them from dark trolls.

there is clearly much more mystery than you are allowing for, and lots of cracks that blizzard have intentionally put there, so they can add things later and create interesting scenarios YOU'VE never thought of, you can conclude all you want that the nocturnal humanoids were troll, they didn't explicitly say so.. you might be right, and they could easily change what you think is Troll or what was regarded as troll by painting a clearer picture of the time, you nor i don't know, based on the info they have provided, you can make a fanfic guess that the well reverted dark trolls to Zandalari - and I can make my own guesses, you can present your reasoning, I can present mine.

Except Zandalari were the first trolls. That's explicit in the lore. They look like the new model in 5.2, which is what Blizzard had always envisioned for them. The hunched over offshoots came later.

[ravenmoon]

In 2011, in the Ask Creative Development - Round II Answers


Q: Are night elves related to trolls in some way?
A: See issue #5 of the World of Warcraft Official Magazine!


As already stated, issue #5 states Night-Elves evolved from Dark Trolls. The World of Warcraft Official Magazine is not fan fiction it's an official Blizzard magazine.

For the upteenth point.

1. I am not disputing that Elves come from trolls is true - i'm opening your eyes to possibilities of what that could mean.
2. Blizzard never said it was an evolution - NEVER - that's my point. they said they came from trolls, they did say it was an evolution. Also remember wowpedia is not blizzard, and remember Brann is an in-game character and can be also get things wrong. Brann did not say Elves evolved from trolls, he just has a diagram of what he thinks the troll that becomes an Elf looks like, and has an arrow. it is the playerbase that is throwing terms like evolution - Brann didn't use that term, neither did blizzard.

We don't know how large Trolls were 14.000 years ago. Humans have on average become a lot taller since the Middle-Ages.

That is true, if you can think that some trolls were actually smaller, despite rumours of dark trolls being huge hulking creatures, then i'm sure it is not without the realm of possibility that some beings that were considered trolls also had 5 finger hands/feet and fangs instead of tusks, yet were considered troll by the Zandalari, the Zandalari also were upright, whiles most other trolls are not, and there are other vast distinction between troll groups, what if, back then Elves were called trolls, and they were the ones that decided they were different enough to be called a different name? Aren't they reported to be the curious, intelligent nature and knowledge loving ones? obssessed with beauty rather than strength or dominance? what if they decided it was insufficient to just call every bi-pedal being with long ears not covered in fur troll? and then when they gain purple skin and glowy eyes due to the well they define themselves as Kal'dorei...what if that was the case? would it not entirely make sense that to them, they were never trolls, but to the zandalari they were trolls who gained purple skin and glowy eyes? Why would the trolls call things by elven standards anyway? Don't they look down on them?

The pools in the vale of Eternal Blossom made murlocs evolve into Jinyu. That seems to be a much bigger change than Trolls to Night-Elves.

and does the sunwell too? Clearly each magical body has it's charactersitics and at least in wow's history we've been given ideas of what each body has done. The Well i'm sure has more secrets to tell, but so far on current information, it doesn't do that. That's not to say it's power can't be used to do that, we see the Old gods change Queen Azshara's palace highborne and herself into naga, just like my first theory thinks Elune uses the well to morphologically change trolls.. but in that theory i do assume that it was trolls that look like modern trolls is what was changed.. i do not know that for sure.

World of Warcraft Magazine #5 explicitely mentions the Shadowtooth tribe of Dark Trolls which was seen in WC3. They didn't show a seperate tribe of Dark Trolls different from the Shadowtooth evolving into Night-Elves. It also states the Shadowtooth were wiped out by the Twilights Hammer.

but it doesn't say that is the group that become Elves, neither does it say the dark trolls evolved into elves either. it just says the Elves come from trolls. Furthermore, every group seems to class trolls differently because there are so many... the trolls have their own classification of trolls, that is different from Brann's classification of trolls ... for e.g. Brann has Ice trolls in a group -- some ice trolls have snow white/ice skin, others have a dark blue like skin - and let's bear in mind another thing...

not every model is being represented in game as blizzard always intend them to be, so basically the troll group or so called troll group could be a lot wider. And the classification dark troll could mean just any nocturnal troll group. Who's to say the Shadowtooth are the all in all representation of all the dark trolls huh? Brann calls all nocturnal trolls dark trolls, so we do, what if that's not how the Zandalarii classified? and then the Elves, they bear the standard of classification, and they could have been a group of nocturnals considered Trolls by the zandalari, but considered themselves different.

What people believe regarding their own origins is not necessarily true. According to World of Warcraft Magazine #5 Cenarius confirmed that Night-Elves evolved from Dark Trolls. This does not have to invalidate his earlier statements if you assume he means that Elune is responisble for the evolution of Night-Elven culture rather their physical transformation. She is their main deity after all and religions tend to have an effect on cultural developments.

ofc that is true, as you can appreciate that Brann also is an in-game character and can also be wrong.. but what if he isn't, and neither are the night elves and neither are the trolls? Quick to poor scorn on the night elves everyone seems quick to dismiss their own account of their own origin as been totally misguided because the tribunal said they came from trolls.

What if the night elves are also correct, and the truth is actually closer to what I said? that would make both the elves and the trolls correct, the tirbunal won't be wrong..the only thing that would be wrong was how we thought it happened.

it seems a bit odd that the Elves, who can speak to Elune btw, and who have spent 10,000 years with Cenarius, would not know about their origin, some of them are much older than 10,000 years old and are the only beings with such age, it seems highly highly unlikely although it is possible, that they are wrong about their origins.. maybe they're not saying the whole thing, and maybe they are telilng you the truth from their own point of view, which is not shared by the trolls.. .for .e.g if the elves do not consider themselves trolls, in their pre-well of eternity state but the trolls do, that's just a matter of opoinion, it makes both Troll and Elf correct, and it still makes the tribunal correct also.

the night elves are not the kind to lie on things like that so it would be out of character to lie, what is more likely that they've always been a bit snubbish, their kind, with 5 digit hands/toes, fangs and upright were considered trolls and not a different species until they forced that view on the trolls, they gained magic, purple skin and glowy eyes and all of sudden they were the children of the stars, not trolls, that's their interpretation, for the trolls, having 5-fingered hands/feet and being upright or even having fangs instead of tusks is not a big enough distinction for classification, but for the elves that become the Kal'dorei it is. for the trolls being made of stone is big enough or being half bull/half troll covered in fur instead of skin with hair is big eough, or being a sentient insect is a big enough distinction, not what the elves were.

so there is also that.

Blizzard said that noncturnal humanoids moved near the well and evolved into the Kalderei, and they said Dark Trolls evolved into Kalderei. Since Nocturnal Humanoids doesn't rule out Dark Trolls I don't see any contradiction here.

In Tolkien's Middle-Earth the Orcs descended from the Elves, in typical Blizzard fashion they do it the other way around except with trolls and elves since orcs are aliens.

yes, blizzard indeed said nocturnal humanoids moved near the well.. they did not say Dark trolls evolved into Kalodrei, they did not say dark trolls moved near the well, they said Elves came from trolls. and given the other information and possibilities i've presented, let's just conclude that Elves come from trolls in some way, not an evolution, whether it is jsut that elves were conisdered trolls until they learnt magic and grew bigger , purple skin and glowy eyes, and then were forced to be considered as elves, or it was that Elune took trolls and zapped them with Well magic to transform them to trolls.. it is not set in stone that dark trolls vovled, and blizzard never said it was an evolution.. wowpedia said. not blizzard.. blizzard is being very clever and is hiding something as yet to be revealed to you,I'm just trying to open up your mind to possibilities you haven't looked at but are right infront of you because you've made assumptions along the way.

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Goblins are most definitely old God creations. Kajamite is a product of old God seepage like Saronite. They may be trolls exposed to both island dwarfism and the mind-altering substance of Kajamite. Would explain their chaotic nature and prosperity so close to the proposed resting place of N'zoth. (South seas)

that's interesting. We know the trolls use to enslave the goblins, until the goblins because of kaja'mite became smarter than the trolls, lots of groups are smarter than the trolls it seems, no wonder elves don't consider themselves as trolls - i can just see it, elves thinking themselves smarter, and not regarding themselves like the other group so call themselves something else.

I read somehwere that pre-kajamite goblins were quite stupid too, like the pygmies, or at least very rudimentary.

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Blizzard is codifying the theory. They specifically state there isn't enough data to prove the theory. Which they later provided in the WoW Magazine. The 2 sides of the debate were 1) the nocturnal humanoids were trolls and 2) NElves were in no way related to trolls and the trolls were just making shit up. Blizzard completely smacked down #2.

how can you honestly say that saying Elves come from trolls is providing enough data? that is presumptious, you can be certain that this so called "enough data will be provided in legion, there is more to this story than you are making it out to be, it's much more invovled than what it seems. the wowpedia article has mislead you, look carefully at what blizzard itself has said.

The first trolls were the Zandalari. See image linked previously.

That is not in dispute, but you know very little about the Zandlari, what it means to be zandalari, the point of views and the social construct of the group, if blizzard were doing a really good job there could be so many nuanced differences, that will go on to explain a lot, when they do go into detail, you cannot just generalize everything, or be like a robot, waiting to only change when new information is provided, part of the genius of being human is taking that leap of faith into the unknown and coming up with possibilities that things not known that you have a hunch are true, then smiling as the evidence supports your prediction.. you realize that's our most distinguishing attribute huh.

How did the Zandalarii group become all those other groups? was it sociologically differences? were there morphological and physical transformations? or were they all quite varied to start with anyway and when thing fractured aligned according to their physical distinctive groups? or other criteria? were there external forces that changed?

when you know so little about the actual information, it's fun tos peculate possiblities ..there's a much wider story to be told there, and as their universe expands, turstme you're not going to get it all now. And when the details are released a lot of stuff will surprise you.

You keep trying to disjoint the trolls from the elves. It is explicit that the NElves came from dark trolls. You keep trying to insert these weird intermediate stages and play games with morphological classifications not being appropriate to ancient lineages... NElves believe they are not related in any way to trolls... AT ALL. This is completely false. This is not about sociological descent, this is racial heredity.

No, I think you mis-understand and mis-reperesent me, I keep trying to open your eyes to other possibilities, and also point out what blizzard actually said as you quote it, you seem to be reading lines into what blizzard said. I've pointed out that blizzard didn't actually say it was dark trolls that evovled into Elves, and shown you that there is sufficient reason to support that Elves came from trolls in a different way than the popular evolution theory, one of two possibilities is that they were physically altered by Elune - that would make the Elves correct that they were created by Elune and correct that they also came from trolls. The other could also be a nomenclature thing we've been thinking all along that trolls were the image we see of modern day trolls, never conisdering that what we consider elf - without the well enhaned purple skin and glwoy eyes may have been considered troll, yes, with 5 fingered hands/toes and ganfs, maybe there was no great physical change, and it was jsut that to the zandalarri, that was just another type of nocturnal troll. That would also make it true that elves come from trolls, it woudl also make the elves right that they havnothing to do with trolls because it could be that theire group never consider themselves trolls and classified themselves differently, and also true that Elune made them and could also be that Elune made the trolls.

Dark trolls are dark trolls. We've seen remnants of them in recent times and Brann got triple confirmation that dark trolls in his nomenclature led to elves. Are you saying Cenarius, Freya, and the Tribunal don't know what trolls looked like back then compared to now?

no, i'm saying you don't, if everyone was considered troll back then, that is the terminology beings who lived thorough that era would use, you have no idea what variations were about then because they've not been revealed to you, how many were lost, how many remain, what the variation was. Like there was only one group of dark trolls, dark trolls who were thought to be extinct, one report says they were huge and hulking and stupid, other reports paint them just like other trolsl but nocturnal, what if they were very different kinds, and Brann calls the nocturnal ones dark trolls and is only aware of one group, the Zandlaarri call them by their nocturnal attributes too, but know there are many different triibes, , what if they're not fussed about classification as elves are, what does it matter to them if some groups have 5 fingers/toes and fangs, other groups have only 2 fingers, great big tusks, other groups have red eyes, what if they didn't really care, or they did and had other names?

look , i'm a creative writer, when you write projects of this scale, you leave blanks, and when you start filling them you creatively think of situations people esp die hard fans won't consider because they're too trained on the evidence to think outside the box. You can spin so much if you really cared.

That's why I qualified my statement with "seems." NElves regained more Zandalari traits as the Well changed them from dark trolls.

yeh, but like my theories, and the statement dark trolls were the nocturnal humanoids who evolved from the well, - it's opinion, no matter how well seeming. Hey it could be right.. afterall if elves as they were physically with 5 fingers/toes and fangs/upright instead of tusks were called trolls, even if they regarded themselves as elves it would be true that trolls went near the well, but from a troll perspective

Except Zandalari were the first trolls. That's explicit in the lore. They look like the new model in 5.2, which is what Blizzard had always envisioned for them. The hunched over offshoots came later.

yes, but that's not what is called into question here, it's your statement that the well reverts the stupid, lumbering creatures rumoured to be dark trolls back to zandalari - for that to be true, you assume what is rumour is actually a true sighting, you assume that the well can make that sort of change shrinking a creature for example, and you assume that it transforms back to zandalari when the end result of the elves' contact with the well of eternity is the night elf.

the night elf is an enhanced Elf, the high elf is not. currently a high elf is what an elf looks like without the well of eternity enhancement.. the sunwell seems to give no physical only mental and magical enhancement as far as I can recall

[Imnick]

Let's take this a step back, what is it about the term "evolution" that you object to?
We know that one species over time changed it become another, is is not a thing you dispute. You also don't disagree that these trolls turned into Elves because of the Well of Eternity. That's

So why is it that you keep telling people that this isn't evolution when that is a perfectly valid use of the word?
What is it you are actually trying to say happened? Where does your thing fit amongst the established facts that some Dark Trolls canonically settled near the Well of Eternity, were bathed in its magic, and later turned into Elves in a transformation mirrored by the Jinyu, who were also creatures who settled near a well of Titanic power and then changed into more "beautiful", longer-lived, and more intelligent forms?

Did Elune shape them too?

Also out of interest, when do the Elves actually say they believe they were created by Elune? When does Cenarius? I know Cenariius was definitely a child of Elune but while they call Elune a mother goddess, I've never understood them to mean it literally. They just have a matriarchal society.

[Traveler Voltin]

Let's take this a step back, what is it about the term "evolution" that you object to?
We know that one species over time changed it become another, is is not a thing you dispute. You also don't disagree that these trolls turned into Elves because of the Well of Eternity. That's

So why is it that you keep telling people that this isn't evolution when that is a perfectly valid use of the word?
What is it you are actually trying to say happened? Where does your thing fit amongst the established facts that some Dark Trolls canonically settled near the Well of Eternity, were bathed in its magic, and later turned into Elves in a transformation mirrored by the Jinyu, who were also creatures who settled near a well of Titanic power and then changed into more "beautiful", longer-lived, and more intelligent forms?

Did Elune shape them too?

Also out of interest, when do the Elves actually say they believe they were created by Elune? When does Cenarius? I know Cenariius was definitely a child of Elune but while they call Elune a mother goddess, I've never understood them to mean it literally. They just have a matriarchal society.

i would call it more a mutation than an evolution.

[Garfurion]

e.g. the well makes beings bigger, but Elves are smaller than trolls to start with.. the well doesn't alter anatomy shape, it doens't make 3 fingers become 5 or convert tusks to fangs and change face structure.. it merely enhances a being... according to all records of what the well does.. it is gods or powerf beings that are able to do things like that, people like the Titans, or elune.

Ok, so if I understand you correctly you claim that Elune altered Dark Trolls into dumb and short nocturnal humanoids with 5 fingers. The nocturnal humanoids then settled near the well of eternity and became bigger and more intelligent ?

We know Elune can create species or alter them so why did Blizzard then need the Well of Eternity in the story regarding Night-Elves origins?

They could just have written that Elune created the Night-Elves for whatever reason. Surely she should have been be capable of creating a large and intelligent race in the first place. She gave birth to Cenarius and he's intelligent and tall, and she created the Wildkin who are also tall and were also intelligent.

Btw, which records/books/etc... show that only Titans and (Demi/Old)-Gods can alter anatomy and the Well of Eternity can't ?

[Abajaba]

Humans, Dwarves, and Gnomes are Old God creations. Vrykul, Earthen, and Mechagnomes were Titan creations. Titans wrought life from stone with their magic and the Old Gods birthed new life still from those creations by adding their own magic to the mix, the curse of flesh. Humans, Dwarves, and Gnomes are as native as it gets 14,000 years on from those events.

Also earlier in this thread someone says Titans aren't worshipped but that's not true. Not sure if the book is still in the game but there was one you could read out in Dun Morogh that detailed Dwarven history and it spoke of the Titans with much reverence. This was of course back when Warcraft and WoW by extension could still pretend the world was big enough to host myth and the unknown.

[Zulkhan]

Blizzard said that noncturnal humanoids moved near the well and evolved into the Kalderei, and they said Dark Trolls evolved into Kalderei. Since Nocturnal Humanoids doesn't rule out Dark Trolls I don't see any contradiction here.

Since it sounds relevant to the topic, I'll leave this here too:

"Ancient texts speak of a small faction of trolls that broke off from the Amani Empire and founded their own colony in the heart of the dark continent.

There, these brave pioneers discovered the cosmic Well of Eternity which transformed them into beings of immense power. Some legends suggest that these adventurous trolls were the first Night Elves, though this theory has never been proven."

The recording of "The Twin Empires" in-game book basically confirm that the splinter faction of the Amani Empire (Dark Trolls) eventually discovered the Well of Eternity which transformed them into "beings of immense power". What was left vague (back then) if these "adventurous trolls" were in fact the Night Elves, connection confirmed in the WoW Magazine later on.

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i would call it more a mutation than an evolution.

It's a mutation by all means. However, it actually had the effects of an evolution for the trolls in question, since Dark Trolls are considered much less intelligent than other trolls.

[Aquamonkey]

how can you honestly say that saying Elves come from trolls is providing enough data? that is presumptious, you can be certain that this so called "enough data will be provided in legion, there is more to this story than you are making it out to be, it's much more invovled than what it seems. the wowpedia article has mislead you, look carefully at what blizzard itself has said.

Because the theory presented by Blizzard was binary. Either the nocturnal humanoids were trolls or NElves were not related to trolls in any way. 2 choices. Blizzard demolished one. Only thing left is the other, which is presented in game as Zulkan posted.

yeh, but like my theories, and the statement dark trolls were the nocturnal humanoids who evolved from the well, - it's opinion, no matter how well seeming. Hey it could be right.. afterall if elves as they were physically with 5 fingers/toes and fangs/upright instead of tusks were called trolls, even if they regarded themselves as elves it would be true that trolls went near the well, but from a troll perspective

That's complete fabrication on your part that goes against everything Blizzard has published. You're twisting what trolls and elves are to fit your fanon. If horned bovine humanoids were called trolls, even if they regarded themselves as tauren, it would be true that they were trolls...

yes, but that's not what is called into question here, it's your statement that the well reverts the stupid, lumbering creatures rumoured to be dark trolls back to zandalari - for that to be true, you assume what is rumour is actually a true sighting, you assume that the well can make that sort of change shrinking a creature for example, and you assume that it transforms back to zandalari when the end result of the elves' contact with the well of eternity is the night elf.

the night elf is an enhanced Elf, the high elf is not. currently a high elf is what an elf looks like without the well of eternity enhancement.. the sunwell seems to give no physical only mental and magical enhancement as far as I can recall

I didn't say it turned them literally back into zandalari. I said it gave them more of their original zandalari traits while giving them enhancements beyond. We've seen dark trolls, not just rumors...

[Fyersing]

I'm currently away from my computer and don't really have the energy to formulate an adequate response via mobile, but the way I see it the only contentious talking-point is regarding the precise cause of their progression from troll to elf; was it solely the energy of the Well that prompted their rapid advancement or was it Elune directly molding them?

My instinct is the latter -- especially if Elune is to the Eternity Well what Anveena(?) is to the Sunwell.

[Maxilian]

Elune, old gods, and hakkar have been confirmed to be actual gods.

Thanks for the info!

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I'm currently away from my computer and don't really have the energy to formulate an adequate response via mobile, but the way I see it the only contentious talking-point is regarding the precise cause of their progression from troll to elf; was it solely the energy of the Well that prompted their rapid advancement or was it Elune directly molding them?

My instinct is the latter -- especially if Elune is to the Eternity Well what Anveena(?) is to the Sunwell.

Elune existed before the Well of Eternity, i think that the Well was created from her, so you could say that Anveena is an "avatar" of her -or a small part of her-

[The Madgod]

I'm currently away from my computer and don't really have the energy to formulate an adequate response via mobile, but the way I see it the only contentious talking-point is regarding the precise cause of their progression from troll to elf; was it solely the energy of the Well that prompted their rapid advancement or was it Elune directly molding them?

My instinct is the latter -- especially if Elune is to the Eternity Well what Anveena(?) is to the Sunwell.

Anveena is an artificial human created from the little remaining energies of the Sunwell by Krasus. The Sunwell, I might add, being created from a single vial of the well of eternity's power.

Which then begs the question... If that is in fact true (and I am not sure if it is, though it's an interesting theory), what sort of creature on Azeroth has the power to create a living, breathing avatar of the Well of Eternity, in its height and glory? Furthermore, why does it possess the powers of the Light, rather than the purely arcane nature of the Well?

EDIT: I mean, the Titans would, really. But yeah.

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Elune existed before the Well of Eternity, i think that the Well was created from her, so you could say that Anveena is an "avatar" of her -or a small part of her-

Keep in mind that a decent chunk of Elune lore is from the now non-canon RPG.

Also where do you get the well being created from HER? Lore about the reorganization of Azeroth via the titans depicts them as being the sole creators of the well. No mention of Elune. And would not her powers of Light be a strange thing to create a font of arcane power from? If it was infused with Elune's power, wouldn't the Legion not be drawn to it, as the Light tends to hurt evil stuff?

[Maxilian]

Also where do you get the well being created from HER? Lore about the reorganization of Azeroth via the titans depicts them as being the sole creators of the well. No mention of Elune. And would not her powers of Light be a strange thing to create a font of arcane power from? If it was infused with Elune's power, wouldn't the Legion not be drawn to it, as the Light tends to hurt evil stuff?

Sorry, that was mere speculation but not even a good one, so just discard it

[The Madgod]

Sorry, that was mere speculation but not even a good one, so just discard it

Nah don't apologize. I like seeing new theories! I was just wondering where you got that idea from and I realize that I'm not perfect in my memory of the lore. I might have my mini Helm of Domination, but yeah. So I was wondering if I had missed something haha.

[Aquamonkey]

Which then begs the question... If that is in fact true (and I am not sure if it is, though it's an interesting theory), what sort of creature on Azeroth has the power to create a living, breathing avatar of the Well of Eternity, in its height and glory?

And an incorporeal avatar at that.