Need ideas for Archi phase 3-4.

[Sonnillon]

As we are getting decent progression finally on Archi normal (yes, laugh your socks off if you wish to) and now could improve few aspects in phase 3 and also could use some ideas for phase 4.

Our group has roughly the same amount of melee DPS as ranged DPS, I know that it's not the ideal composition, but there are no other options on the table right now.

Phase 3
We are sending in our top DPS for banish - 4-5 DPS + healer. Not using the "wait in realm, kill both, pop BL" tactic yet. After few Banish group adjustments and people starting to kill the adds from pools, we got that part down more or less.

Now my question is should always top DPS go down or should mix of certain classes be sent? Ofc leaving few ranged up to deal with the spawning adds.

And also how would you tell your raid to spread, everyone stays at a random location keeping their 6-yard spread or you assign certain positions for people. If you use the latter then how do you "make sure" that people go to their assigned spots - clever addon, markers or just make people take up their position before the pull? Although I am not sure how well the fixed position would work for us, cause we'll be starting phase 3 from the corner/side where we finished phase 2.

Phase 4
For that one we tried 2 ways, both felt too chaotic. Firstly we had 1 Infernal on tank, each of our retri paladins took 1 Infernal, though most of the time a hunter or a mage ended up still kiting them. As far as I could see, having DPS kite 2 Infernal at the same didn't go that well, the Infernals were dragged either too far or kept once in a while bit too close.

The second way we tried (for which I can only rely on comments from other people) we had 2 Infernals on tank, 1 being kited by DPS and once the one kited died the next one was taunted away. People said that, that was even more chaotic.

How are you handling phase 4 both raid position vise and Infernal kiting vise?

[noladrew]

There's a little bit of missing information here. In order to help accordingly, we need to know how many people are in your raid, how many melee and ranged, and how many healers. If you're struggling at that phase, I would venture to guess that your raid size is some what small, sub 20, probably 12-15 if I had to really guess. If this is the case, you will probably have some struggles with the fight just based on restrictions of how many healers you can bring and still meet dps requirements. We do heroic with ~20-25 people and phase 4 is not a problem at all. We have people face tanking Infernals to keep them spread out and have enough healers to keep everyone alive with no problems.

People don't actually have to spread out until Demonic Feedback is being cast, and obviously don't stand in bad shit. Use raid cd's accordingly for breaking chains, but with a smaller group, you may have an easier time breaking them individually and healing up a bit before breaking the next. Changing or adjusting your chain strategy may help deal with some of the hard ships in these phases, as there tends to be a lot going on at certain points.

How we handle the banished groups, we send about 1/2 the group at a time, leaving 2-3 healers with the remaining tank and dps at all times. We zerg down the add inside and come out asap. After the second group comes out, we lust and get a big burn in before the next banish group goes back down.

With everything being said, if you're progressing on normal, that's probably where your group should be (not being offensive just realistic) and you won't be able to afford to carry anyone. If you have the capability to sit anyone under-performing on the fight, it should help you get it down for your first kill or two. You can't afford to lose dps early due to failing mechanics (stacking when not supposed to, standing in bad, etc). You really need to save whatever battle res's you have available for the later parts of the fight for when shit really hits the fan. The more you learn the fight, the more manageable each phase becomes, so make sure you're really executing each phase really well that way you're not struggling when you shouldn't be. Makes things easier for your healers and takes a lot of stress off of the group as a whole.

All in all, this fight is just a clusterfuck for smaller groups. The smaller the worse it tends to be. Don't get discouraged, just try your best and your group will progress at its capability.

[Sonnillon]

I did get some useful pointers from someone else's heroic Archi help thread.

It's hard to say exactly how many, due some being available on one week, while others not. In general I would say 15-20ish people. Healer number is between 4-5 (it's mix between paladins, druids and a mw who can play disc (not that good on alt though)). Last night we had 6 ranged, 4 of them being hunters, 1 mage and warlock. 7 melee DPS, 3x retri, 2x rogue, 1 ww, 1 DK. Usually we have couple of more ranged and 1 more melee, but one of the retri's was playing it as their OS.

With everything being said, if you're progressing on normal, that's probably where your group should be (not being offensive just realistic) and you won't be able to afford to carry anyone. If you have the capability to sit anyone under-performing on the fight, it should help you get it down for your first kill or two.

No offense taken in the statement of yours, we balance Archi progression with heroic one. And as we don't have 100% farm status on the 1st 5 heroic bosses, then you know, we have ways to go.
If I would start benching people I will drop the number from 15-20 to barely 10 or even less (people take bit longer to get accustomed to mechanics then what most of you are used to in my group). So that's not gonna happen. It will take bit longer for people to get the fight down, so with more practice even the under performers will pull through.

Yes, I know I am shooting myself in the foot with that amount of healers, but stuff dieing is not the problem for us, we have the DPS numbers to make the kill happen even with that amount of healers, specially if more people would make it to phase 4.

People don't actually have to spread out until Demonic Feedback is being cast, and obviously don't stand in bad shit. Use raid cd's accordingly for breaking chains, but with a smaller group, you may have an easier time breaking them individually and healing up a bit before breaking the next. Changing or adjusting your chain strategy may help deal with some of the hard ships in these phases, as there tends to be a lot going on at certain points.

That much I got from the heroic Archi thread as well. Probably we could go with a raid CD for each Rain and just stay stacked through it, while only spreading for the Feedback, which would significally increase the chance for people staying in healer range. The timing to force Shackle and Rain to come at a seperate time will be probably too much to handle for starters.

[xcess]

Me as a hunter just pull an inferno away and i can pretty much solo it if i wanted to they dont really hurt too mppl and ppl just have to be adds and not tunnel boss. You should have someone handling the shadows that can be the silent killer slowly picking ppl off. Just have ppl stay in their spot and not run around like headless chickens in the chaos and just use a defensive for the low hp ppl

[chuachua]

As we are getting decent progression finally on Archi normal (yes, laugh your socks off if you wish to) and now could improve few aspects in phase 3 and also could use some ideas for phase 4.

Our group has roughly the same amount of melee DPS as ranged DPS, I know that it's not the ideal composition, but there are no other options on the table right now.

Phase 3
We are sending in our top DPS for banish - 4-5 DPS + healer. Not using the "wait in realm, kill both, pop BL" tactic yet. After few Banish group adjustments and people starting to kill the adds from pools, we got that part down more or less.

Now my question is should always top DPS go down or should mix of certain classes be sent? Ofc leaving few ranged up to deal with the spawning adds.

And also how would you tell your raid to spread, everyone stays at a random location keeping their 6-yard spread or you assign certain positions for people. If you use the latter then how do you "make sure" that people go to their assigned spots - clever addon, markers or just make people take up their position before the pull? Although I am not sure how well the fixed position would work for us, cause we'll be starting phase 3 from the corner/side where we finished phase 2.

Phase 4
For that one we tried 2 ways, both felt too chaotic. Firstly we had 1 Infernal on tank, each of our retri paladins took 1 Infernal, though most of the time a hunter or a mage ended up still kiting them. As far as I could see, having DPS kite 2 Infernal at the same didn't go that well, the Infernals were dragged either too far or kept once in a while bit too close.

The second way we tried (for which I can only rely on comments from other people) we had 2 Infernals on tank, 1 being kited by DPS and once the one kited died the next one was taunted away. People said that, that was even more chaotic.

How are you handling phase 4 both raid position vise and Infernal kiting vise?

From what I've read is it accurate to say you've got 40% to 25% well covered?

A few tips I can give got p3-4:
1. Watch timers on shackles. As boss approaches 25% make sure you as a raid leader calls for your dps to stop dps if shackles are coming in 7s or less. You don't want to deal with RoC and shackles at the same time.

2. Make sure all your dps are switching to infernals immediately. There's a period where the infernals are still in the ground but ARE targetable. Since you run a melee heavy lineup, make sure al of them are switching as well.

3. Since you have 4 hunters, put them all on shadow duty. The fight is literally infernals and shadows .

[Sonnillon]

Me as a hunter just pull an inferno away and i can pretty much solo it if i wanted to they dont really hurt too mppl and ppl just have to be adds and not tunnel boss. You should have someone handling the shadows that can be the silent killer slowly picking ppl off. Just have ppl stay in their spot and not run around like headless chickens in the chaos and just use a defensive for the low hp ppl

You have just 1 infernal being kited at a time or someone else does the second? I will have to probably keep most of the hunters out of Banish I recon and send in melee instead of hunter(s).

Do you kite in a certain direction or just away from other people, if I may ask what's your average DPS on the fight if you say you can solo it or did you mean something else under it?

Yeh, we have the headless chickens to sort out, people need more pulls and experience in later phases.

- - - Updated - - -

From what I've read is it accurate to say you've got 40% to 25% well covered?

We just need to sort out the "proper" placement for Feedback so that there wouldn't be needless damage, which kills people on top of few other mistakes. But that just needs more practice, that's it.

A few tips I can give got p3-4:
1. Watch timers on shackles. As boss approaches 25% make sure you as a raid leader calls for your dps to stop dps if shackles are coming in 7s or less. You don't want to deal with RoC and shackles at the same time.

This is actually close what I read in another thread by stopping DPS at 27% when 20 sec left on Shackle CD. I do think that getting this one down, specially when people are stacked under the boss, outside the Feedback, should give better survival rate over all as well.

2. Make sure all your dps are switching to infernals immediately. There's a period where the infernals are still in the ground but ARE targetable. Since you run a melee heavy lineup, make sure al of them are switching as well.

As I go down to the realm(s) as the tank then that fact I haven't noticed. I think that probably the best solution would be to send in melee groups for Banish, due to the fact that ranged can handle the rest of the stuff and make "clutter" of melee also thinner.

3. Since you have 4 hunters, put them all on shadow duty. The fight is literally infernals and shadows .

Will keep that in mind. Our 2 highest DPS hunters actually should be more then enough for those.

[Herecius]

I think you're overcomplicating the infernals; there's actually no need to kite them. They don't melee very hard, and have a small enough amount of health that if DPS switch as they spawn - as in, when they land, start forming up, and before they begin even moving - then they'll only get in a couple melee swings at most on any given target.

One hunter per Shadow spawning portal is plenty. Two is overkill. They can shoot a frost trap directly on top of the portal to make it easier, to boot.

[Sonnillon]

I think you're overcomplicating the infernals; there's actually no need to kite them. They don't melee very hard, and have a small enough amount of health that if DPS switch as they spawn - as in, when they land, start forming up, and before they begin even moving - then they'll only get in a couple melee swings at most on any given target.

One hunter per Shadow spawning portal is plenty. Two is overkill. They can shoot a frost trap directly on top of the portal to make it easier, to boot.

I actually meant more in less of separating the infernals some how as one cannot keep them stacked due the fact that they heal, cause when there are 2 infernals on DPS at the same time they still need to bring them away from each other. But I do get the point.

[miffy23]

I actually meant more in less of separating the infernals some how as one cannot keep them stacked due the fact that they heal, cause when there are 2 infernals on DPS at the same time they still need to bring them away from each other. But I do get the point.

We have the raid spread in static positions, 2 plate DPS are set to pick up one Doombringer each and offtank them - they don't hit very hard on plate and remember they are completely stunnable as well. They keep them fairly close to the group, tanks pick up 1 Doombringer on top of boss, the two others are kept left and right of him. Sometimes ranged just nuke the others down before they get into position anyway - the important part is that they shouldn't be kited away from the set group, so everyone can actually nuke them immediately and can be healed. Remember that their healing range is only 15 yards, you can keep them fairly close.

The best thing you can do for the last phase is, as stated in other threads, to set static positions, assign specific jobs to people (plate dps 1 - doombringer, plate dps 2 - doombringer, hunter 1 - portal 1 adds, hunter 2 - portal 2 adds, etc).

People need to realize that everything else besides DPSing the boss is more important - getting to Banish and doing it properly, controlling and nuking Doombringers, controlling and nuking Banish adds, and controlling the Torment timer before pushing 25% as well as coordinating break phases for Torment with cooldowns.

Do not move for Wrought Chaos, do not move for Rain of Fire. Only move if you have to pick up a Doombringer, or to break chains (or if it's your turn for Banish).

Once you can do that for a full Banish and Doombringer cycle after 25% without anyone dying, you're golden. Just optimize and continue form there.

[Sonnillon]

to set static positions

I do need bit clarification for the static position setting. Is it assigned pre-pull or when phase 3 starts, people spread and after the spread just stay where they are?

They keep them fairly close to the group, tanks pick up 1 Doombringer on top of boss, the two others are kept left and right of him.

This is the best idea probably for the amount of melee I have for Doombringers.

[xcess]

Yeah i mean i pull inferno away from other ones. Just dont let them heal. Have ppl with range radars and see that they arent too close to another then its good. Have the ppl doing banish maybe be closer where its gonna go and have hunters/range kinda be where shadows come out. You can send hunters down the first banish, they should be back up in time for doombringers. I know hunters are good down there too cos I can kill the star myself but I am kinda overgeared for normal so I am not sure what dps you guys can do. Mix of range/melee isnt too bad too but pretty much whoever can do the job

[miffy23]

I do need bit clarification for the static position setting. Is it assigned pre-pull or when phase 3 starts, people spread and after the spread just stay where they are?


This is the best idea probably for the amount of melee I have for Doombringers.

We assign everything pre-pull with markers for the last phase. As soon as the first Banish hits, people assume these positions and do not move from them (assuming their range radar is clear for Feedback) except to break Torment chains when it's time, or possible to pick up a Doombringer/dps it - and ofc to enter Banish.

One marker is for the Banish portals - the boss is positioned a fair 40 yards or so away from that marker. The subsequent Banish portals will be placed to the left and right of the first one. The space between tehse two markers is used for the ranged and healer positions. I always use two markers for ranged positions (Banish group 1 ranged on one, Banish group 2 on the other), to the sides, leaving the middle towards the portals for hunters, who are on Banish add duty, and the real middle of the entire setup for healers, so they can reach everyone.

If you have too many melee it is worth considering dropping one or two, as they will nuke each other a lot with Feedback and Wrought.

[Sonnillon]

The way you assign location is simpler then I thought. There are some pointer to take along from your strategy miffy on the positioning, but we'll have to adjust it a bit to fit the group's general abilities.

As we're moving in a square patterns in phase 1 and 2 (ping-pong is not for us), then at the start of phase 3 the boss is left on the location where we finished and the first banish group just moves towards the edge of the area. It feels bit more simpler at least to start out that way, with less movement as the DPS and the skill allignement from the boss varies as our DPS varies so that we're not ending the phases at the same time on every pull. And that way not that big fan of placing markers to make people be at the proper places.

I do have to admit that boss might've been too close to the pools, but when DPS focused the add was practically dead before it got out of the pool.

I do think that what could work for us in regards of placement would be something in line of... Keeping the boss on the location where we started phase 3 until the Nether Banish happens, then move the 40ish yards away. Have the hunters be between pool and boss, while rest mainly stacks on boss. When it's time to spread for feedback, people spread between the portal and boss. Possible the banish groups should be ready as well bit before it's happening like being closer to the place where next portal goes.

Wrought placed badly over people/raid/tanks was the issue for few people only, and if I recall they weren't melee.

And if I send 2-3 melee, 1 ranged on top of healer down should give melee more room to spread as well, though as we're doing Tyrant with the same melee heavy setup they are getting the point of being away from boss for few seconds is better then killing people and yourself.

Anyway thank you very much for the ideas , I think with bit of mix and matching on the tactics what is generally used we have decent chance in getting further into phase 4 and getting the kill, the best I do believe for us was 18% or so, but it healed cause people missed the banish due to lot being dead.

[miffy23]

The way you assign location is simpler then I thought. There are some pointer to take along from your strategy miffy on the positioning, but we'll have to adjust it a bit to fit the group's general abilities.

As we're moving in a square patterns in phase 1 and 2 (ping-pong is not for us), then at the start of phase 3 the boss is left on the location where we finished and the first banish group just moves towards the edge of the area. It feels bit more simpler at least to start out that way, with less movement as the DPS and the skill allignement from the boss varies as our DPS varies so that we're not ending the phases at the same time on every pull. And that way not that big fan of placing markers to make people be at the proper places.

I do have to admit that boss might've been too close to the pools, but when DPS focused the add was practically dead before it got out of the pool.

I do think that what could work for us in regards of placement would be something in line of... Keeping the boss on the location where we started phase 3 until the Nether Banish happens, then move the 40ish yards away. Have the hunters be between pool and boss, while rest mainly stacks on boss. When it's time to spread for feedback, people spread between the portal and boss. Possible the banish groups should be ready as well bit before it's happening like being closer to the place where next portal goes.

Wrought placed badly over people/raid/tanks was the issue for few people only, and if I recall they weren't melee.

And if I send 2-3 melee, 1 ranged on top of healer down should give melee more room to spread as well, though as we're doing Tyrant with the same melee heavy setup they are getting the point of being away from boss for few seconds is better then killing people and yourself.

Anyway thank you very much for the ideas , I think with bit of mix and matching on the tactics what is generally used we have decent chance in getting further into phase 4 and getting the kill, the best I do believe for us was 18% or so, but it healed cause people missed the banish due to lot being dead.

Couple of things - you want to send more ranged than melee into Banish, unless your DPS is quite high, or the ranged is good at kiting, otherwise you will run into issueswith the Voidstar. People in Banish also need to realize (ranged) that their priority is to slow and kill the Voidstar asap, then the add.

Make sure only 1 hunter or ranged DPS is assigned per Banish pool, specifically. Any more is a waste. The adds simplyr equire one DPS to slow and nuke them everytime they spawn. If adds are hitting people, the assigned people are slacking.

I will really again emphasize that you are making it far harder on yourself by not spreading and just staying in those positions. The more you move, the more damage you are going to take, inevitably. Wrought Chaos and Rain of Fire may look intimidating, but are very easy to heal through. Rain of Fire can be healed through almost without raid cooldowns, have people that have multiple inpacs on their location use personals/potions, then use raid cooldowns to quickly break chains, one at a time.

Feedback and Torment are the big bad killers in this phase - the more you make your group move, the more Feedback damage they will inevitably take. If you don'T coordinate Torment break phases, people will inevitably die to it and wipe the group due to uncoordinated breaks.

[Sonnillon]

Couple of things - you want to send more ranged than melee into Banish, unless your DPS is quite high, or the ranged is good at kiting, otherwise you will run into issueswith the Voidstar. People in Banish also need to realize (ranged) that their priority is to slow and kill the Voidstar asap, then the add.

The group which was down with me, killed 1 star, then when the second one was fixiating killed the big guy and got out fast enough. The second group I think needed to kill both stars and the the big add. While we went if I recall with 1 ranged and rest melee, the star died super fast.

I will really again emphasize that you are making it far harder on yourself by not spreading and just staying in those positions. The more you move, the more damage you are going to take, inevitably. Wrought Chaos and Rain of Fire may look intimidating, but are very easy to heal through. Rain of Fire can be healed through almost without raid cooldowns, have people that have multiple inpacs on their location use personals/potions, then use raid cooldowns to quickly break chains, one at a time.

Is it really that much moving when people split only for Feedback and go when they have to for Banish or Chains? We'll try to come up with a solution that works with us, most probably the combination of what you guys suggested.

If you don'T coordinate Torment break phases, people will inevitably die to it and wipe the group due to uncoordinated breaks.

That's also taken care of, the order which people break works out fine as they seem to actually keep an eye on how far one or the other person is. The only thing which need possible more attention is that no chain will be broken when the Rain is happening or well, not too many at least.

[xcess]

Yeah get ppl spread out in last phase just like for the burst in p1(Well melee too). Maybe just have melee spread early since you got so many. Its gonna be better to have one or two die then have half the raid kill each other with feedback. Have heals pay extra attetion to ppl with chains as I believe if they die with chains it'll do the aoe still

[freddy090909]

You have 4 hunters, so assign 1 hunter to each puddle (only assign hunters who have their 4pc). That is, hunter A will handle puddle 1, hunter B will handle puddle 2, hunter C and D will be on backup. These hunters should be given priority positioning near the puddles. Everyone else should just stay away and ignore adds outside of stuns/snares if they get loose (longer distance for adds to run + hunters will be in range as soon as they spawn).

Group 1 should include hunter B and C, group 2 should include hunter D (A must stay be outside to handle the first puddle), group 3 should be a suicide group involving your weakest healer and weakest DPS (adjust this by specifically calling someone out if either are dead). Try to keep an even balance of ranged/melee and let the melee tunnel on the big add (keep it interrupted, keep the star slowed). With 16 people, I'd send 4 dps and a healer down each time, with group 1 being the stronger group (grow to 5 dps as you get closer to 20). Do not break shackles during infernal spawns and avoid breaking as a group is coming back from the nether. Do not kite infernals. They should be separated and then stunned until they die, it does not matter who they are on, but Ret paladins and DK as you said you have are a good choice for getting them out.

Key times to lust are after the second group goes down (to ensure they don't waste uptime), which should line up roughly with the first set of infernals. After the second group is back out, use a second lust for them (the ring should be treated similarly, used by each group separately). If you only have one lust, just use it as soon as the first group returns.

The big thing that will cause hiccups while progressing through p4 is bad breaking of the shackled torments. If someone breaks at a bad time and kills another person that was also shackled, it will cause their chain to break as well. Make sure you have good cooldowns available for this phase, as well as making sure people break in order and at good times (check raid health, do not break with anyone <25%).

For spreading, you should not need assigned positions outside of the hunters being given priority positions near the puddle. That said, no one should be moving much outside of breaking chains. If you get the wrought chaos, do not move unless it's a minor adjustment and let the people in the line side-step out of it (exorsus raid tools will help with this). Remember that all of this also applies to melee, who need to really be sure to stand still once they find a good position. However, demonic feedback goes off fairly infrequently - so you can call out about 10 seconds in advance to double check that they everyone is spread out.

[Bigbazz]

P4

Infernal kiting? My guild has never kited the infernals, we just had people switch to them and kill them.. Preferably having 1 of them taunting on top of the boss to allow cleave, but if that's too much in the chaos then avoid it... But yeah I don't recall ever using kiting as a tactic for the infernals, just keep them apart (only 10y needed if I remember right, it's quite a small distance) and prioritise dpsing them ASAP.

Shadow adds coming from pools - No idea the names, we had MM hunters deal with them.. Having the 4 set that makes aimed shot instant is crazy good for this, MM hunters with 4 set are highly valued.

Shackles - This is the biggest killer in the raid, because it's a fairly silent and seemingly random killer when everyone is focussing on their own things during the chaos, you should have someone calling these out.. When to break, when to hold and how many to break... DBM assigns each shackled person with a number of 1/2/3 and will even tell them in that order who to break first, making it easy for the caller to call out and the person to respond.. It works in alphabetical order, so someone named "Alfred" would likely be first.

Demonic Fury can be a big killer too, but sort your shackles and life should become much easier. Check your logs and see how ridiculously high the shackle damage is to the overall raid in comparison to other mechanics, it really needs to be co-ordinated.

[Sonnillon]

Shackle breaking is not really an issue, me or my co-lead are calling the order out anyway. Shackles seems to be one mechanic that people don't fail on much.

1 mage only, 2 others were lost to nether :P, so we have only 1 lust at our disposal, unless someone uses drums which is less haste or a MM goes BM for the BL pet. So I guess when group 1 comes out we'll have to use it.

I guess I got lucky. Only 2 hunters of 4 have the 4-set. So the puddles will be also covered.

Another dumb question - suicide group? Killing off a tank for what reason? Doesn't doing it the normal way work as well?

[xcess]

Maybe you can try 3 tank if someone can. That suppose to cheese it. Suicide grp is so you can burn him with as many dps as possible and not have him heal 5% so you can send in oom heals and lowest dps