Help on Archimonde Heroic p3

[Deleted]

Hi, I would like to start off by saying in advance thank you for any input I might get. We are a relatively new guild and we are currently progressing on Archi heroic.

We have had two 3 hour raids on archi now and last night was our best lot of attempts yet however we keep wiping on about 10-13% I think our dps as a whole isnt too bad but ofc can be better so please dont slate us for it we are not a top end raiding guild try keep it as constructive as possible.

The tactic we went with was, 3 tanks, 5 healers, 10-11 dps. On the first nether we sent in 2 ranged 1 melee 1 healer and 1 tank. We took the add inside down to 10% waited for the 2nd nether to happen then nuked the add which then brought both groups out of that phase.

When the infernals started falling we just stood still and popped dev + hymn to top people up. Once the infernals has spawned we tried have 2 dks stand on a marker each with an infernal and pulled one into melee ranged and dealt with them by killing one of the dks infernals then killing the melee one then the last one was dragged into melee after two were dead which seemed fine and worked the majority of the time however after that it seemed that our dps was lacking as we only had archi to 10-13% before the 2nd lot of infernals fell which then wiped us.

So what im wondering is how do we push the boss faster? Should we scrap the dks standing out and just have melee on the boss 100% of the time whilst ranged deal with the infernals dragging one into melee so it can be cleaved down?

Ps. We popped hero when the two groups were out of the nether so boss would of been around 23-25%.

I'll edit this with logs so you can see more details.

I'd be very grateful for any help and suggestions that will help us to kill him!

- - - Updated - - -

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/CgMF8Qj6JmTaAwHx

[Deleted]

I'm not sure what the added value is of waiting inside with killing the add instead of just killing it asap. We pop hero/rings when the infernals are about to come down, and pop then again when the 2nd banish group comes out. Also confused why you use 3 tanks when 2 is enough.

As for the infernals, just nuke them down, make sure at least 1 is out. We manage to ignore the 2nd set of infernals, but if you can't make that DPS check make sure your DPS focusses them.

Also, 1 max 2 hunters should be focussing on the adds coming out of the nether so they don't unnecessarily damage your raid. Keep spread for the aoe, don't break chains quick but in a controlled matter. As for the infernals, they actually do quite a lot of damage, so if you can avoid this you should.

**Also, for your mage, frost is superior to arcane here.

[Cannibalus]

A link of the logs would be amazing as usually people die in phase 3 from a combination of avoidable + unavoidable damage, for example any combination of Demonic Feedback (especially after people dodge infernals, by moving in the same gaps), Wrought Chaos, breaking Shackles and let's not forget the Living Shadows. So, some1 can be brought low by Demonic Feedback and then finished off by a rogue hit from Wrought Chaos or a loose Living Shadow, or someone can just be hit by a Living Shadow and healers might be unable to top that person off in time, it's so many fatal combinations from these spells that it's pointless to write all possible scenarios.

You and your raiders need to be aware of all the mechanics going on, and if your average ilvl is 705+ (which it should by this point) you can easily do 3 nether grps and a 4th sacrifice group (of only 3 people) while you burn the boss. My advice is to let the first nether group finish off the add, by this point the boss should be at or around 25%, the moment they come out pop BL, you will all deal with infernals, then seconds group goes in ~10 seconds after infernals spawn so be careful to nuke them fast, after which you can resume on boss, third group will go in and here it gets tricky as you have to deal with infernals with a grp inside the nether, so either get a lot of people inside, 1 tank and rest dps, healers need to be left out to keep people up, or have the 3rd nether the sacrifice nether if your dps can pull it off and just nuke Archi. But first of all do the mechanics properly and don't take unnecesary damage, then try and fine-tune how you spread the dps (oh and you need either a hunter or an arcane mage outside all the time to 1-shot the shadow adds).

Just saw your logs. Your main problem is your setup, if you cut 1 tank and 1 healer you should be fine, and you will have the dps to do it, also your mage staying arcane is fine, he does a good job. As for the actual execution, you didnt do that many mistakes which is really nice, you should have the kill once you figure out your comp.

[Deleted]

The reason we wait inside for the 2nd nether group is because we then have all the dps out at the point of popping hero and completely nullifying the 2nd Nether phase. With doing this tactic you have two tanks inside nethers so a third is needed to tank the boss until nether groups are out. However looking at logs now would lead me to believe this tactic would be best with a 25-30 man raid not ours which was 18.

[apples]

2 tank and doing nethers normally is better in every respect except its harder for healing.

[Kakera]

Your issue is dps. 2 Tank it. You can achieve your tactic by having your warrior dps taunt when the second tank goes down and use Die By The Sword and kite if he needs to. Drop a healer. You should 4 heal this with your amount of players no question about it. One of the shamans needs to sit. If you use this tactic ideally you need to push the boss to 25% the instant you top the raid from the second shackle. My guild used this strat for progression and it ended up being a huge difference maker. Just ensure you push the boss as close to the second torments being broken as possible. Other than that you really need to get DPS to stop doing low dps. You have a ton of situational mistakes as well. All the tactical changes in the world won't matter if your players can't stay alive of their own accord. Focus on DPS and you will kill it.

2 tank and doing nethers normally is better in every respect except its harder for healing.

Disagree. The only DPS that matters is 25% - 0%. Maximizing that is key. If you have 3 players trying to break shakles during the time Infernals are out you lose a ton of dps. Not only that but chaos naturally reduces raid dps due to using survival cds. The main point of this tactic is to have everyone up for Lust during first Infernals. The other big point is not having chains align with Infernal killing, or Rain of Chaos.

[Deleted]

Thanks for all feedback. Yes we kept both hunters outside to deal with the living shadows. We will try taking two tanks and do the nethers "properly" on Wednesday and see what results we get.

If someone doesn't mind could you possibly look through the logs and reply with any feedback that you might notice any problems within them.

[apples]

Your issue is dps. 2 Tank it. You can achieve your tactic by having your warrior dps taunt when the second tank goes down and use Die By The Sword and kite if he needs to. Drop a healer. You should 4 heal this with your amount of players no question about it. One of the shamans needs to sit. If you use this tactic ideally you need to push the boss to 25% the instant you top the raid from the second shackle. My guild used this strat for progression and it ended up being a huge difference maker. Just ensure you push the boss as close to the second torments being broken as possible. Other than that you really need to get DPS to stop doing low dps. You have a ton of situational mistakes as well. All the tactical changes in the world won't matter if your players can't stay alive of their own accord. Focus on DPS and you will kill it.



Disagree. The only DPS that matters is 25% - 0%. Maximizing that is key. If you have 3 players trying to break shakles during the time Infernals are out you lose a ton of dps. Not only that but chaos naturally reduces raid dps due to using survival cds. The main point of this tactic is to have everyone up for Lust during first Infernals. The other big point is not having chains align with Infernal killing, or Rain of Chaos.

if you cant coordinate your raid thats probably a bigger issue than what your strat is.

[Deleted]

Just turn it into a 30man, send 10 + 10 in, 3 in for sacr on 3rd. All this boss needs. And stay alive until nether 3, otherwise it won't matter.

[Deleted]

Aye aye Starkerz, (raided with you in NoM)

A quick look through your logs as i dont have much time.
First thing i will repeat here is that the most important DPS burn is 25-0%
Looking during your lust you have some DPS below the tanks, cant have that during the hardest burn phase.

I would remind every DPS to hold 2nd Pot and their DPS CDs for this phase. (as they are not)

Worst case you should reduce the size and bench under performers.


Oh and your warlock may be better suited going Destro or Aff on this fight.
Destruction is amazing for the prio adds and Affliction is really good for the burn phase.
If he continues to go Demo at least tell him to go Demonbolt or Demonic Servitude and he should read up on the Demo Guide also.

[Deja Thoris]

You have too many tanks and too many healers imo. I fail to see the point of 3 tanking. Regardless of that you have 5 healers for less than 20 people? Seems excessive.

[Deleted]

Aye aye Starkerz, (raided with you in NoM)

A quick look through your logs as i dont have much time.
First thing i will repeat here is that the most important DPS burn is 25-0%
Looking during your lust you have some DPS below the tanks, cant have that during the hardest burn phase.

I would remind every DPS to hold 2nd Pot and their DPS CDs for this phase. (as they are not)

Worst case you should reduce the size and bench under performers.


Oh and your warlock may be better suited going Destro or Aff on this fight.
Destruction is amazing for the prio adds and Affliction is really good for the burn phase.
If he continues to go Demo at least tell him to go Demonbolt or Demonic Servitude and he should read up on the Demo Guide also.

Hi buddy, yes we have also noted this issue and will be addressing it on wed raid. The point you made with dps being under tanks during hero and holding onto 3min cds for the burn is golden thankyou!

Hope all is well with you and NoM!

[Schadow]

Pop hero at 25%, not when you come out. You want hero to push the infernals. Imo, all the ranged should be on the outer infernals while melee grips/dps the closest one. At the same time, don't stack as you can avoid the swirleys, save your cds when you actually need it. a HTT/Tranq is still advisable in that phase, however, but with hero, that's all that's really needed.

Looking at your resto shamans specifically, sometimes I see Kazelle not using Heaing Tide in that particular phase, when it hits 25%, where it would provide a lot of benefit. Juicebox seems to do it more consistent in there though, but both do not seem to always drop it in a good time, there are times when the healing done is quite low, which can be considered a waste or more easily healed up with ascendence or simply healing it through.. I hope they have some kind of rotation where Juicebox does it first and Kazelle for the second phase, and have the other healers assist in between when needed.

And yeah, drop a tank, make him/her DPS.

[miffy23]

5 healers and 3 tanks for 19 people? Huh?

2 tank it, and 4 heal it. You're making it far harder on yourselves than need be.
Also, send more people into Banish. The faster you're done with it, the better. We send 5 DPS in with 1 Healer, you can even skip on the Healer if your DPS is good enough inside, you can literally have it done in 15-20 seconds.

Assign static positions for everyone in the last phase, make sure everyone knows their place for whatever happens, assign specific people to deal with Doombringers to get them into position, and finally it is helpful to time the push past 25% so that certain abilities don't overlap with Torment as much. If you push 25% when you have 15-10 seconds left on Torment, you will get it towards the end of Rain of Fire, which is ideal as you will be able to break almost immediately with almost nothing else going on. Boss should be dying after 3rd Banish, roughly, but it'S no race - nothing changes anymore, as long as people know how to react when and don't panic, it's not bad.

[Gaidax]

Well, everyone above just really pointed it all out well, it is basically a mix of self-inflicted DPS issue due to the tanks/healers overload and specific damage dealers dragging you down during the burn phase.

[Svisalith]

Your hunter DPS is low, i'm a solid 1.4-1.5x-ish higher in i712 while playing for the kill, not for maxing out logs. Raid DPS as a whole is low (some low numbers, not a lot of great numbers, too few DPS for composition)

there are other issues that could be looked at but increasing raid DPS makes fights like this get exponentially easier. You need a seriously strong, competent group to take archi HC with mediocre DPS but you can make a lot of mistakes if you have really good DPS and it's no problem

70'th percentile (better than 70% of players) Archimonde Heroic DPS for MM hunter on warcraftlogs this past 2 weeks is 69.1k DPS and yours were around 50k. That shouldn't include much padding but it's worth noting that it can be easier to do higher DPS when raid damage as a whole is higher. Archimonde is really a MM hunter fight.

[land]

50k dps effective seem to be the breakpoint when 2 tanking and not overhealing. You have plenty of ppl below that while 3 tanking and having 1 too many heals. Warrior dis by the sword is key when doing the cheese strat (holding dps on first add bellow), do that over 3 tanking.

Another thing that helped us was holding on ring and hero for till *after* the first set of infernals is dead, this allows for more boss and overall damage as its less chaotic when just boss is up. Make sure ppl are using 2nd pots there.

[Zafrire]

We use 3healers 2tanks rest dps we Bloodlust after the second group gets out of the nether + ring and nuke him down before infernals are full energy sacrifse 1 of the healers plus the worst dps and the tank on the third netherbanish.

We use disc-druid-Mistweaver. Druid never goes in nether but last to sacrifise and burns all his major CD's and mana before that. Tranq on first infernals and we use 1tank 2dps warriors to pick up the infernals. We had most issues with the fiends that spawn from the netherportals cause we got a melee heavy setup.

Second infernals that spawn we dont really tank happens alot that i (mistweaver) tank some with healing aggro and diffuse magic or kiting em around abit

[Deleted]

Thanks for your help guys we killed it last night!

[miffy23]

Congrats!

We're struggling to get it down without dozens of wipes after our first kill now, people are seriously lacking in focus and still tend to panic in the last phase, despite our kill being unbelievably smooth with barely anyone dying.