Why are so many shaman abilities inferior copies of other classes ones?

[Bapestar]

Shamans have always been always looked at as an average class, but in WoD the spec is garbage. If Legion doesn't deliver, gonna have to quit, other classes just don't really interest me. Some people in this thread come off as elitists, and it makes me wonder why these player's haven't rerolled ages ago if they are so obsessed with being competitive.

[sidenorna]

Shamans have always been always looked at as an average class, but in WoD the spec is garbage. If Legion doesn't deliver, gonna have to quit, other classes just don't really interest me. Some people in this thread come off as elitists, and it makes me wonder why these player's haven't rerolled ages ago if they are so obsessed with being competitive.

Cause at the end of the day, there is not other class that I want to play. The shaman is the only character that I can get into.The problem is that the shaman class is always just given enough love to not be totattl trash and never anymore. Every other class has had their day in the sun..THe shamans are 40 degree days. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ttbQTz8tAE

[Rhamses]

To be honest, if I was in the dev team. I would be playing my Shaman changes very close to my chest. The Shaman community, when provoked is extremely cutthroat and ANY change is always met with resistance.

If theyre making some rather large changes, it would be a hell of a lot easier to just NOT say anything and avoid all backlack until Blizzcon when they can show those changes rather than explain them - because lets face it, them explaining things this expansion has been utterly dreadful.

I disagree. Look at the Warlock and Hunter changes, or the changes to Balance in WoD. Blizzard tends to announce big changes well in advance.

The lack of news of any Shaman changes in Legion isn't a good sign.

[Murderdoll]

Changes? When was there a big changes in the shaman class?

Arguably therehasnt been yet, but speculation is next expansion there will be. I simply said, Shaman often meet change with very large resistance because we as a class are more attached than many others.

Even look at the Echo change in BRF, that was resisted.

I disagree. Look at the Warlock and Hunter changes, or the changes to Balance in WoD. Blizzard tends to announce big changes well in advance.

The lack of news of any Shaman changes in Legion isn't a good sign.

Looking at how Shaman and devs have interacted in the past. We arent the easiest class to announce changes to. Would you announce "Hey Shaman! Were flipping your entire class on its head, now wait a month to see what we mean!"? No. It best way to announce Shaman changes is at Blizzcon when we can actually SEE the changes.

Looking at how people have reacted to Hunter changes and Rouge development, why would you risk that with Shaman who are reknown for being some of the most passionate in the game?

[Deleted]

Arguably therehasnt been yet, but speculation is next expansion there will be. I simply said, Shaman often meet change with very large resistance because we as a class are more attached than many others.

Even look at the Echo change in BRF, that was resisted.

Sorry, complete BS. Most classes welcome BUFFS and go on a rampage when hit with nerfs. Just saying "changes" is misleading. A lot of shamans disliked how they changed lightning bolt to not being able to be cast while moving, because it was a blatant nerf. Then again, shamans have the largest ammount of Blizzard apologizes and "omfg we're op" people of any community.

When warriors were one shotting people during Mists, most people there were screaming it was fine and saw nerfs as unjustified. Meanwhile as soon as even a minor buff is announce here you guys proclaim we "might be to strong and something else should be traded off".

Looking at how Shaman and devs have interacted in the past. We arent the easiest class to announce changes to. Would you announce "Hey Shaman! Were flipping your entire class on its head, now wait a month to see what we mean!"? No. It best way to announce Shaman changes is at Blizzcon when we can actually SEE the changes.

Complete and utter BS. All classes react negatively to nerfs, most far more than we do. What we do. You're talking about nerfs, rendering out abilities useless and hitting us with a sledgehammer for several expansions in a row. We were told pre WoD that "we were a bit op" and thus needed nerfs flying into the face of everything pointing towards the complete opposite and we were right about it. It took them several patches of changes and buffs to make us even remotely playable for crying out loud.

Looking at how people have reacted to Hunter changes and Rouge development, why would you risk that with Shaman who are reknown for being some of the most passionate in the game?

Complete and utter BS.

Edit, the changes we do get are contrary to everything they supposedly wanted to do. Just look at the ability prune, where we lost good and useful abilities aswell as passive ones while keeping those "minor damage increase not doing anything on their own" they removed from other classes.
Hell they turned unleash weapon for elemental into EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANTED TO REMOVE FROM OTHER CLASSES for absolutely NO FUCKING REASON. They just removed the damage component making it the very thing they stated they wanted to remove just cause. Ofc nobody is happy about that, because it's both a nerf and awful.

[Pantsless]

Edit, the changes we do get are contrary to everything they supposedly wanted to do. Just look at the ability prune, where we lost good and useful abilities aswell as passive ones while keeping those "minor damage increase not doing anything on their own" they removed from other classes.
Hell they turned unleash weapon for elemental into EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANTED TO REMOVE FROM OTHER CLASSES for absolutely NO FUCKING REASON. They just removed the damage component making it the very thing they stated they wanted to remove just cause. Ofc nobody is happy about that, because it's both a nerf and awful.

Well, if you look at abilities such as Unleash, Searing Totem/Searing Flames, Fire Nova, Healing Rain, MSW, talents, burst, utility and how blizzard has changed them over the last 3 expacs you start to understand that they have no idea what they want to do with shamans or where shamans fit as a class. So yes, it's not about buffs or nerfs it's about the developers not having a well though design plan. Each expac they come up with one or more ideas, waste an entire beta cycle doing nothing and then spend entire tiers trying to fix or balance things with buffs or nerfs. This isn't something specific to Shamans, however we are the only class that goes through this process every god damn exapntion.

[Deleted]

There's some bigger changes needed for the class, which are subject to opinion (direction of the class). But there's tons of QoL things they could improve on RIGHT NOW, where there wouldn't be any opposition. Doing that, they could reestablish some faith inthemselves, and even announce unspecific bigger changes for the class in the beta, because shamans would've noticed:" Oh, so they did that huge thing about QoL, they do think about us, they can do it, I am excited about bigger changes as I am sure they can pull them off just as well.

What I am getting at: Blizz could, with little effort, show that they do care about us, but they dont. They could easily announce bigger changes coming up without big resistance if they did those little things, but they wont even do them. 99.99% of their class-design-time isn't spend on shaman design, and the 5 minutes per year they do, they tweak a percentage (SS/LL dmg), or do uninspired shit during beta, because they couldn't be arsed doing anything at all.

[sidenorna]

There's some bigger changes needed for the class, which are subject to opinion (direction of the class). But there's tons of QoL things they could improve on RIGHT NOW, where there wouldn't be any opposition. Doing that, they could reestablish some faith inthemselves, and even announce unspecific bigger changes for the class in the beta, because shamans would've noticed:" Oh, so they did that huge thing about QoL, they do think about us, they can do it, I am excited about bigger changes as I am sure they can pull them off just as well.

Honestly, QoL changes for shaman feel more like the blizz dev team saying we are going to kick the can down the road again...

[Deleted]

Honestly, QoL changes for shaman feel more like the blizz dev team saying we are going to kick the can down the road again...

easy, fast QoL changes would include:
Glyph of Capacitor Totem baseline
LM going off of shaman instead of fire totem
FN applies FS dot instead of LL and resets FN cd, works only once every 15s
HST has smart heal again, at least of enh/ele
UE sprint is 60% and lasts 6 seconds
Elementals no longer bound tot totems

and more... None of these would require lots of work, but they would do wonders for our everyday life as a shaman.

I can sympphise with your point though. I have no faith in them since years now, which is why I quit back in cata. Even now, I am maining a hunter, and am uncertain if I will keep on playing it for legion, or playing legion at all, because I dont feel the same passion as with shaman.

[Murderdoll]

Sorry, complete BS. Most classes welcome BUFFS and go on a rampage when hit with nerfs. Just saying "changes" is misleading. A lot of shamans disliked how they changed lightning bolt to not being able to be cast while moving, because it was a blatant nerf. Then again, shamans have the largest ammount of Blizzard apologizes and "omfg we're op" people of any community.

Complete and utter BS. All classes react negatively to nerfs, most far more than we do.


Complete and utter BS.

Edit, the changes we do get are contrary to everything they supposedly wanted to do. Just look at the ability prune, where we lost good and useful abilities aswell as passive ones while keeping those "minor damage increase not doing anything on their own" they removed from other classes.
Hell they turned unleash weapon for elemental into EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANTED TO REMOVE FROM OTHER CLASSES for absolutely NO FUCKING REASON. They just removed the damage component making it the very thing they stated they wanted to remove just cause. Ofc nobody is happy about that, because it's both a nerf and awful.

You are getting nerfs mixed up with class changes. They are NOT the same. Your entire post is you shouting bullshit in some nonsensical rambling about how they nerfed your class. This isnt about nerfs.

Look at the change to Fire Nova back in Cataclysm. The Searing Flames addition. EotE change. These were not nerfs. They were redesigns of an ability or mechanic that changed how the class worked. Even looking at your LB on the move and Healing redesign. They werent targeted nerfs to a class, they were redesigns of a mechanic for everyone.

These were ALL met with very harsh criticsm and resistance during PTR/BETA and on live and Shaman, are often very very vocal.

Yes, quite often the changes we do get are contrary to everything they want and what we want. More often than not, they make the class worse. Which is one part of the reason why we are so hard to deal with as a community. When we have been blatantly screwed so many times, of course were angry and meet anything Blizzard throw at us with suspicion.

With how Hunters (and other specs) handled the Survival news and how Rogues went on a riot about Ravenholdt. What do you think Shaman are going to do when they get all these changes announced with no context? They will want to show the changes with some sort of on screen demonstration.

Justified aggression is still aggression and Shaman are always fairly aggressive when it comes to change.

[Pantsless]

Justified aggression is still aggression and Shaman are always fairly aggressive when it comes to change.

Amin to that !

[Deleted]

You are getting nerfs mixed up with class changes. They are NOT the same. Your entire post is you shouting bullshit in some nonsensical rambling about how they nerfed your class. This isnt about nerfs.

Sorry but no. You making wild claims and accusations doesn't magically make it so. We did not get a class rework or sweeping changes, not at all. The changes we saw fall into two categories, nerfs and buffs. Most of them were clear and absolute nerfs.

Look at the change to Fire Nova back in Cataclysm. The Searing Flames addition. EotE change. These were not nerfs. They were redesigns of an ability or mechanic that changed how the class worked. Even looking at your LB on the move and Healing redesign. They werent targeted nerfs to a class, they were redesigns of a mechanic for everyone.

Except, when the prior system worked better, smother and more reliable while giving the players more options then said changes were in fact nerfs, even if they were unintentional, which they truly weren't in many cases. You can say they "changed" our mastery, ignoring that we got an all around worse one for elemental than we had before, which ended up breaking us in PvP big time.

Changes always fall into two categories, beneficial and harmful. Most shamans have seen so far have been at best half thought through, harmful and didn't end up improving anything. This has been going on for quite a long time and thus most people are incredibly doubtful about any changes or additions at this point, because Blizzard has a track record of slapping some half assed after thought together for shamans, hell look at the 100 talents.

These were ALL met with very harsh criticsm and resistance during PTR/BETA and on live and Shaman, are often very very vocal.

Ofc they were, the same as our mastery change was, the same as the claim we "were probably a little op and didn't know it was", guess why? Because it was complete and utter bullshit. They weren't simple changes, improvements or anything like that, they were either nerfs, changes for the worse or outright removal of utility such as stormlash.

Claiming shamans are "very vocal" about these things is completely absurd. The shaman forum has the highest number of "wait and see" aswell as apologists of any class. Other classes can be godlike such as Warrior during MoP pvp and they will throw a tantrum when someone even dares to mention any changes of epic proportions.

All you are doing is basically trying to slam the shaman community for the horrible state the class is in, which is absolutely ludicrous.

Yes, quite often the changes we do get are contrary to everything they want and what we want. More often than not, they make the class worse. Which is one part of the reason why we are so hard to deal with as a community. When we have been blatantly screwed so many times, of course were angry and meet anything Blizzard throw at us with suspicion.

The Shaman community is NOT harder to deal with than any other class community, which is exactly the reason why we're constantly getting shafted and neglected. Because if anything we're not vocal enough, because people like you constantly preach an endless wait and see mentality where the goalpost is moved each time we reached the point you set prior.

Stop blaming the community for the blatant neglect and disregard they're met with by Blizzard, if they were so hard to deal with and so demanding Blizzard would end up investing and caring more rather than being "putt off because we're all so terrible, thus it's all our fault!".

With how Hunters (and other specs) handled the Survival news and how Rogues went on a riot about Ravenholdt. What do you think Shaman are going to do when they get all these changes announced with no context? They will want to show the changes with some sort of on screen demonstration.

What they will do? "Guys, it's just the first announcement, they haven't even introduced everything, it's not even beta yet!" followed by "Guys, it's just early beta, they're not done with class changes yet." which will eventually turn into "It's still mid beta, they're not done yet." and then into "It's just 7.0, wait for the first content patch and the changes." and finally into "Guys, they'll do something next expansion, just wait.".

The same kind of deflectivsm for Blizzard, constantly moving the goalpost, blaming the players etc you've been doing since around the time Cataclysm hit.

Justified aggression is still aggression and Shaman are always fairly aggressive when it comes to change.

No, no they're not. Shamans have one of the most doormat communities in the entire game, people like you who are defending and blaming the community and players are almost exclusively a shaman phenomen. Other classes can be half gods and still run rampant when Blizzard even hints at a nerf, or anyone else does.

[Murderdoll]

I never said anything about sweeping changes.

Are you all there?

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No, no they're not. Shamans have one of the most doormat communities in the entire game, people like you who are defending and blaming the community and players are almost exclusively a shaman phenomen. Other classes can be half gods and still run rampant when Blizzard even hints at a nerf, or anyone else does.

Are you kidding, I have not defended Blizzard at all, in my post or in the past. I think theyre handling of Shaman this expansion has been below even poor and I have been critical of a few people in this very thread that have tried to justify our utility as "acceptable" based on a ranged interrupt.

My posts, have been in rebuttal to an earlier quoted post, regarding no announcements yet. I simply have suggested to wait to Blizzcon because why would you release any major changes with absolutely no context and allow speculation, anger and frustration grow rife within a class community that always feels down trodden.

This is common sense shit.

[Yopparai]

I like how these rants have nothing to do with the original post. Every time someone has an opinion and someone disagrees they are slammed for being "not all there" or accused of spouting "BS".
Keep the posts constructive, guys. I'm tired of having to wade through several pages of arguments that are irrelevant.

[Murderdoll]

I like how these rants have nothing to do with the original post. Every time someone has an opinion and someone disagrees they are slammed for being "not all there" or accused of spouting "BS".
Keep the posts constructive, guys. I'm tired of having to wade through several pages of arguments that are irrelevant.

Didnt realise you were a moderator, my bad.

[Kazgrel]

Didnt realise you were a moderator, my bad.

Straight outta the backseat.