LFR is Bad for the Game: A Thesis

[Blackmist]

LFR needs its drops buffing if anything. The lack of interesting trinkets and set bonuses has significantly reduced my interest in gearing my alts.

As long as "raiders" don't have to go into LFR (and frankly I think the lack of LFR tier and trinkets should be removed after a month or so, along with Realm locks on Mythic content), then we're all sorted.

LFR has no effect on the raiding community. If a player is satisfied by LFR, then they were never a part of it anyway. The same players who are in LFR now are the same ones who were linking damage meters on trash back in ICC (where they'd done nothing but cast Volley for a minute straight, yay skill). They aren't raiders. Don't think that if they took LFR out you'd be able to recruit them for your Mythic guild. You don't want them. I don't want them. If they didn't have LFR, what do you think they'd do in WoD? They'd quit. There's nothing else to do.

[Deleted]

Why would I give a shit? I don't have as much time to raid anymore, but I still get to see the raids. Why would I care if it affects other people? I really don't give a shit if it affects smaller guilds. I get what I want from the game and I don't care about anything else.

[Deleted]

I'm starting to think that people who start those threads are actually jealous of others who find LFR to be enough content to keep them interested.

[Deleted]

LFR serves a purpose. This is the first time (And i haven't been more casual than now) that i've been able to see the entire content of the game. I've been playing since 2004, leaving the game and coming back as they added more content. i raided in vanilla, burning and northrend, and got pretty bored of that time sink over the years. LFR made me able to see what was going on in the main story development and i'm happy about that. it's pretty dumb to complain about the features that you don't use, and man, Tanaan baleful items are far better than the crap that drops in LFR. There is less people in wow now, and the subs are lowering, it's normal, the game is getting older and instead of helping blizzard is slowly killing the gold machine. LFR is not the problem, one year without content pandaria-draenor , and another one now between draenor and legion is the problem

[Silverquis]

1. There is no need for LFR if it doesn't improve your skills are a newbie raider as LFR started off as a zergfest and it is still a zergfest.

2. LFR gear should be of the same value as Heroic Dungeons in order to keep dungeons relevant. The main reason why is because LFR is simply a tourist mode to those who refuse to raid normal or even flex. I mean you'll never find anyone in LFR trying learn a boss, they do it to see a boss, zerg the boss , get loot and quest item, and repeat every week.

3. Wow has become too easy and too accessible. Some of the less skilled players wants their hand held from beginning to the end game. Hell, Some of these less skilled players think that aoeing a single target boss is enough dps to this day.

[bama77563]

They need to remove LFR completely.

[Deleted]

1. There is no need for LFR if it doesn't improve your skills are a newbie raider as LFR started off as a zergfest and it is still a zergfest.

2. LFR gear should be of the same value as Heroic Dungeons in order to keep dungeons relevant. The main reason why is because LFR is simply a tourist mode to those who refuse to raid normal or even flex. I mean you'll never find anyone in LFR trying learn a boss, they do it to see a boss, zerg the boss , get loot and quest item, and repeat every week.

3. Wow has become too easy and too accessible. Some of the less skilled players wants their hand held from beginning to the end game. Hell, Some of these less skilled players think that aoeing a single target boss is enough dps to this day.

1. That is not the point of LFR and yes there's obviously a need for it.
2. This will not keep heroic dungeons relevant as Blizzard is not adding any new dungeons anymore and they are not tied to any secondary currency. Also, you think people should be forced to raid? Can't really get the meaning of the word "refuse" there.
3. Wow was always easy and accessible, that is the #1 selling point of WoW from its beginning.

From your excessive use of "less skilled players" I can safely make a TL;DR for your post - "bu muh special snowflake status"...

Sorry buddy, you chose the wrong game for gaining "prestige".

[Silverquis]

1. That is not the point of LFR and yes there's obviously a need for it.
2. This will not keep heroic dungeons relevant as Blizzard is not adding any new dungeons anymore and they are not tied to any secondary currency.
3. Wow was always easy and accessible, that is the #1 selling point of WoW from its beginning.

From your excessive use of "less skilled players" I can safely make a TL;DR for your post - "bu muh special snowflake status"...

Sorry buddy, you chose the wrong game for gaining "prestige".

1. If your skill as a player has not passed "zerg the boss", then there is no need for LFR.

2. As long as there is gear to get from dungeons, they will still relevant.

3. Please explain how vanilla wow and BC was easy and accessible. As Many veterans including myself say otherwise.

[Deleted]

1. If your skill as a player has not passed "zerg the boss", then there is no need for LFR.

2. As long as there is gear to get from dungeons, they will still relevant.

3. Please explain how vanilla wow and BC was easy and accessible. As Many veterans including myself say otherwise.

You contradict yourself pretty hard. You say there's no need for LFR, then say that people just use LFR to see the content, get some loot and repeat, which is exactly the point of LFR.

What does skill have anything to do with LFR. Skill is needed in mythic. You adjust the needed skill for the type of content, not the other way around.

Please explain what was not accessible in Vanilla and what skill did it require, because I also started in Vanilla? It was a big time sink with many gated things, but what exactly was out of reach for any player? Currently you have even normal raids asking for Curve and absurd item levels.

It's like you think that every player should do and enjoy the things you do and enjoy. Thanks for being a perfect example for the "raid or gtfo" mentality, which got us to WoD in the first place.

[Palemaster]

You know what made dungeons relevant? Wrath and BC, and do you know how? Badge/Currency system, and that's because it introduced replayability, because if you weren't raiding full time you had another way to get gear, albeit through a longer process as it only rewarded you 50, 25 and then 10 valor points after doing a Random Dungeon 3 times a day, making dungeons relevant because so many people wanted as many Valor as possible. Your solution will still make them irrelevant in the long run. It's a short term fix.

This is a post about LFR, so in my post I said that changing the gear quality of LFR will stop the trend of nullifying dungeons once its open. I'm happy to throw ideas regarding how to make dungeons more interesting and viable, but this is not the thread to do so in. Not sure what got you so upset.

[Aori]

Mythic or any PvE content doesn't need skill or at the least I don't view it that way. There really isn't much thought involved in raiding after the strategy is figured out, it is usually only a small handful of people per raid that even do that part. The rest is how well you follow instructions.

Nothing has changed in WoW in that regard, it is all the same. We just have more tools to help the process, if anything it is easier now than it was in the past. The only skill in PvE is creating a strategy to defeat your goal.

[Deleted]

3. Please explain how vanilla wow and BC was easy and accessible. As Many veterans including myself say otherwise.

It was easier and more accessible than the other MMorpgs at that date. You needed hundreds of people to raid a dragon in Daoc, and pretty large raids in EQ. Anyways in your behalf i must say that high-end at vanilla was for a 0,5% elite, didn't find it amusing to pay a monthly fee to read about Original Naxxramas as a myth that only a guild or 2 from my old server visited.

[Fang7986]

The quality of any loot should be directly correlated to the effort it takes to earn it.

In LFR's case, below heroic dungeon quality (which will also make sure that dungeons will still be relevant 2 weeks after expansion releases).

Another option is to add a coefficient to the loot roll based on performance (APM, damage done / healing done / damage taken etc). In this case AFKers and auto attackers will have low to no chance to get loot (thus encourage them to not be dead weights) and people who actually contribute to the group will have their fair share.

if the quality of loot should be directly correlated to the effort it takes to earn it then the only epics in the game should come from mythic and the worse a player is the better gear they should get cause it takes them more effort to do anything in the game then it does a better player

[Silverquis]

You contradict yourself pretty hard. You say there's no need for LFR, then say that people just use LFR to see the content, get some loot and repeat, which is exactly the point of LFR.

What does skill have anything to do with LFR. Skill is needed in mythic. You adjust the needed skill for the type of content, not the other way around.

Please explain what was not accessible in Vanilla and what skill did it require, because I also started in Vanilla? It was a big time sink with many gated things, but what exactly was out of reach for any player? Currently you have even normal raids asking for Curve and absurd item levels.

It's like you think that every player should do and enjoy the things you do and enjoy. Thanks for being a perfect example for the "raid or gtfo" mentality, which got us to WoD in the first place.

People can see the boss without LFR, hence the Dungeon journal.

Lol If the only skill needed in mythic or even heroic raiding was "zerg the boss", wow would have went f2p a long time ago.

If you really started in Vanilla then you would know that raiding was clearly not accessible back then as it is now because if you didn't do the attunement quests required need for said raid, you would not be raiding. Not only that, if you wanted to raid as a war , you were protection permanently, same went for priest players as they're forced to be healers and god help you if you wanted to be a mage specced anything else than arcane. As no good guild or even raiders pugging wanted paladins or druid tanks not because they were being assholes about it but because they weren't tuned for to be a tank as Blizz clearly made the game with warriors being tanks back then.

[Deleted]

Raiding as a whole is bad for the game and it's starting to show, but people on these forums won't admit that because most of them are hardcore raiders, unlike the general playerbase of wow.

[Fang7986]

LFR is the only reason we still have raids if you don't like it don't run it it is that simple. Just another thread by people not liking something and thinking it needs to be removed and that doing so will magically solve problems that don't exist or have much deeper causes.

[Palemaster]

if the quality of loot should be directly correlated to the effort it takes to earn it then the only epics in the game should come from mythic and the worse a player is the better gear they should get cause it takes them more effort to do anything in the game then it does a better player

Well it's wrong because raiding (especially mythic) is a group effort, thus the raid is rewarded for their effort & skill when they kill a boss.

What you're describing can however relate to the second paragraph (because LFR is not really a group effort, just a bunch of individuals trying to carry the group), and in this case I agree wholeheartedly.

[Ins0mnia]

How significant should the quality drop be?

Should be blue quality, minimum. Far below Mythic Dungs imho.

[Gilian]

No, LFR exists because the community stinks.
The community which keeps complaining about LFR is why it is more necessary than ever.
Stop looking for someone else to blame for your mess, and clean it up yourselves.
Stop making higher formats harder to access with artificial inflation, and take a look at why people would CHOOSE a format with an inferior difficulty and inferior reward, one without dictatorship.

What inferior reward? LFR has extremely inflated rewards. It really does not make any sense that you get so many epics from LFR while heroic dungeons, which are more difficult, get you rare items you throw away after a week or less.

What dictatorship? Oh wait, you mean people who actually want to play with other people instead of ignoring them.

The worst part of the LFR experience, is those people who shouldn't be there.
Those that choose to use it as another loot lockout.
It should have a shared loot lockout, not being another one.

Who are you to decide who should be there?

And you get what you create. Blizzard makes a raid that takes no effort whatsoever and gives you rewards that are way out of proportion for that content so you obviously get more people who go there for the rewards. And you enter LFR expecting no one to care about what you do and everyone to be positive about whatever happens there which is extremely naive.
Seriously, go play a singleplayer game or just stop raiding alltogether. I'm perfectly fine with people wanting LFR because they can't schedule organized raids but that's not an excuse to suck balls and then expect no one to care when you wipe, that's just ridiculous.


I don't even play WoW anymore so I couldn't care less if LFR stays or goes or whatever, but I can at least look at it objectively and see that LFR is just a very bad experience for the majority of people who go there. At least 10% intentionally (and blatantly) go afk or die, in what world is that a good thing!? Then you have the people who don't do it intentionally and all the people who are annoyed by them. It's so horrible that the only thing Blizzard can do to make it work without too many people hating it is by nerfing LFR to the ground, literally. And as you can see people think it's boring and leave in droves.

p.s. If you only want to raid with people you like you need to organize it. FYI, LFR groups are put together with completely random people.

[Jensxo]

No, LFR exists because the community stinks.
The community which keeps complaining about LFR is why it is more necessary than ever.
Stop looking for someone else to blame for your mess, and clean it up yourselves.
Stop making higher formats harder to access with artificial inflation, and take a look at why people would CHOOSE a format with an inferior difficulty and inferior reward, one without dictatorship.

The worst part of the LFR experience, is those people who shouldn't be there.
Those that choose to use it as another loot lockout.
It should have a shared loot lockout, not being another one.

Feels like you genuinely just didn't read what the OP said and blindly just went on a rant. What OP said is completely true. You reckon in BC - Black temple/sunwell/gruuls/mag/kara would've been fantastic raids if we had an "easymode" version for all of them? We had a benchmark raiding difficulty...You either progressed to get better and see more stuff or you stayed mediocre and blizzard gave mediocre content for people outside of raiding.

And now like the OP said - People leave the game in droves because LFR completely devalues what raiding and progression is. LFR keeps players on a leash rather than letting them run out and do things for themselves. People wonder why Blizzard gate LFR...because they finally understand the mistake they've made by completely removing that sense of character progression for the sake of accessibility.

The best part is - is when i go into a LFR raid and there are people doing literally 5k dps. Thats literally pressing a spell like once every 10 seconds. 5k dps was the dps you were doing in leveling gear as you were leveling. The problem we have now is that Blizzard and most players think that's "okay" to suck and be rewarded. Then when the good players say that the bad players are actually bad....we get labelled elitists? What happened to the days where good players actually wanted to give advice because there was a reason too. What happened to the days when you actually had to be good at the game to progress in it? Black temple would've been amazing if it had 4 raid difficulties. (Sarcasm)

I don't like how little player interaction there is in this game now.
I don't like how i actually don't need to join a guild in order to raid.
I don't like how people think that because they don't have enough time to do something....they are automatically entitled that the game should cater to them.