4 in 5 town in the Netherlands dont have places to live for refugees

[Deleted]

Hey guys, so first of, if you are going to post an article in a language that the majority of the people here don't speak, please be a bit more insightfull into what the article says.
First of, the title is simply incorrect, the article says that 4 out of 5 municipalities don't have enough open spaces to move the accepted refugees into.
This can mean that there is a lack of 1-100 houses per municipality total (this is not in this particular article, but in the NRC version of it), which, given the fact that there is usually a lack of cheap social rental properties everywhere, is really nothing new. Also the only people being eligible for this kind of housing are the people whose asylum application has actually been accepted (and are therefore considered legit refugees by the dutch state).

In the same vein however, the article does say correctly that these refugees get priority on these homes over natives, mostly because the asylum centers that we host the people in before their application has been accepted, which does lengthen the time it takes for dutch citizens (the ones who don't have an urgent need, the ones that do have an urgent need have the same priority as the refugees) to get accepted into social housing.

This social housing isn't anything like assisted living or anything, it is just a place where poor people can rent houses at a price that is often somewhat lower than the private renting market. Refuges have to pay rent themselves (or if they don't have money for that it will be subtracted from their future salaries and/or welfare benefits.

Something that isn't mentioned but was also asked to the municipalities in the survey that this article mentions is the fact that about 1 in 4 of all municipalities experience resistance from locals against refugees, so the idea that there is widespread resistance is simply (in the Netherlands) untrue.

Is there a logic to helping out refugees?

Absolutely, if only because of the fact that the Dutch people eligible for these kinds of houses are often way better off than the refugees themselves and in case they arn't, they get the same priority as the refugees on these homes.

As far as I know there arn't any examples of people having to move out of their homes for refugees in Germany, though feel free to prove me wrong with a source there.

I also don't think that the lack of available housing is a policy failure, it is just the reality that it is hard to build new homes in the 2008-12 crisis, especially since a lot of the organizations tasked with building this housing suffered massive losses.

If people really want to claim that native Dutch people have it so bad (which they don't, Dutch social security is pretty good and it is incredibly rare to get evicted from government housing when you can't make payments in good faith), please do feel free to provide some sources. The Netherlands have extremely low amounts of homeless people and the vast majority of those are either illegals or people who themselves don't have the ability/will to live in a house, in which case there is fairly little the state can do. The vast majority of the people who apply for social housing are young people who have just finished their (lower level) studies and found a job but are unable to afford private rents with the salaries that they are currently getting.

Also refugees definately don't get provided with a job or a free place to stay, unless you can't the asylum centers, which really isn't a place you want to live in the first place (I did some volunteer work there fore a while).

On the notion of ''own people first'' I think I partially agree with this, however the people that are eligible for this housing are legally already a good few steps into the process of becomming Dutch, they are allowed to live and work here and have a temporary working license, so in a way, they are citizens as well.

If you have any questions/responses feel free and ill try to adres them as well as possible, for the record, while I do appear very pro-immigrant in this post it is mostly to debunk some things that are being said that are false in this thread, I personally havn't made up my mind yet about the issue and whether or not we should accept these refugees so easily, especially since a third of the refugees who claim to be from syria in germany actually have another nationality (http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2015/09/25/...nationaliteit/).

[Deleted]

Where is your source to support it?

Thats not how this works. You claimed its not true, calling his points drivel in the first place.
Proof it.

[Deleted]

I could link many philosophical debates, morality arguments, human nature and instinct, evolution, and such, but no point, because you are pretty obviously just attempting a poor flame. As I said though, please enlighten us with how his argument is fully accurate and well sourced beyond hatred and drivel.

Allright. Lets go claim by claim then shall we?

Refugees come from men who do nothing about there situation but pack up and leave

First claim. Refugees did flee. They did pack up and leave, otherwise they woulnd be all over europe. Hence its true. 70% of the people reported refugees are young males. They didnt fight or fled the fight(otherwise they woulnd, again, be in europe) hence one could interpretate that as cowardness.
http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php

http://time.com/4042813/syria-refugee-civil-war-isis/

Your turn. Debunk it with your philosophy. Oh wait, random thoughts arent sources. Debunk it with proof instead.

[Pickwickman]

Allright. Lets go claim by claim then shall we?



First claim. Refugees did flee. They did pack up and leave, otherwise they woulnd be all over europe. Hence its true. 80% of the people reported refugees are young males. They didnt fight or fled the fight(otherwise they woulnd, again, be in europe) hence one could interpretate that as cowardness.

http://time.com/4042813/syria-refugee-civil-war-isis/

Your turn. Debunk it with your philosophy. Oh wait, random thoughts arent sources. Debunk it with proof instead.

The problem here is you are the one labelling them as cowards, not the article.

You can't fucking make assumptions for the reasoning when you're presented with the barebones data. That's statistics 101.

[Deleted]

The problem here is you are the one labelling them as cowards, not the article.

You can't fucking make assumptions for the reasoning when you're presented with the barebones data. That's statistics 101.

Added a source for the numbers (70%, not 80, my bad). When someones considered a coward is pretty subjective though. And I didnt call them one. I stated someone can interpreted young men fleeing from a warzone as cowards.

[Deleted]

Are you seriously trying to back up a metaphysical argument about cowardice and wanting to stay safe, with figures and numbers?

How bored are you this Sunday afternoon? I am not going to play your game, as judging by your post history you just seem to be one of those knobs that wants an argument, uses weak *facts* as a poor attempt to justify some barely linkable evidence, and then utilise it to support some spurious claim. Then, when the argument gets heated, I am also sure you try and goad people into a flame war, then report them to a moderator to get them infracted/banned simply to satisfy some urge you have.

No thanks, have better things to do with my time

So first you cry about me having to proof it first eventhough you claimed fallacy first.
I proofed it with data.
Now you attack my sources and the fact that i bothered to proof it.
And the fact that i proof other claims with data aswell.
And you draw back from the discussion.

What is it with pro refugees that they cant have a proper discussion with numbers and facts rather than gutfeeling and semantics? Are facts and figures your kryptonite or something?

[Pickwickman]

Added a source for the numbers (70%, not 80, my bad). When someones considered a coward is pretty subjective though. And I didnt call them one. I stated someone can interpreted young men fleeing from a warzone as cowards.

To be honest, as someone who fled Turkey in the 90's as a political refugee (the turkish didn't like kurdish intellectuals like my father) I can see where these refugees come from and what their reasoning is for sending their young men, the ones with the brightest possible futures, and the ones that have the highest chance to save the others with those futures to safer countries as refugees.

If my father didn't come over to the Netherlands by his own he would have been killed by the government back then, and if he didn't go first he wouldn't have been able to make us come over safely, compared to the fucked-up way he himself escaped the country.

Make no mistake, the path of refuge is fucking insane and you might end up being killed / jailed at every step of the way, especially by the people that promise to bring you to other countries.

[Deleted]

To be honest, as someone who fled Turkey in the 90's as a political refugee (the turkish didn't like kurdish intellectuals like my father) I can see where these refugees come from and what their reasoning is for sending their young men, the ones with the brightest possible futures, and the ones that have the highest chance to save the others with those futures to safer countries as refugees.

If my father didn't come over to the Netherlands by his own he would have been killed by the government back then, and if he didn't go first he wouldn't have been able to make us come over safely, compared to the fucked-up way he himself escaped the country.

Make no mistake, the path of refuge is fucking insane and you might end up being killed / jailed at every step of the way, especially by the people that promise to bring you to other countries.

And there-in lies the problem. Theres no way telling what the background of the 70% young men are.
Some of em are from turkey. Some from Syria, some from other places. They all threw away their passport or got a fake one as only syrians get asylum.

So did they flee out of courage? or cowardness? Is it courage when they bring over family after? What if they dont? Or dont have family to bring over? Then its just fleeing = cowardness.

The coward claim is therfor open to interpretation.

[Deleted]

Like calling people cowards for running from ISIS?
The facts and numbers aren't the issue, the problem is with random interpretation of them.

Woulnd it be more heroic to stay and fight ISIS?

[Azadina]

Because wanting to protect your family, leaving your home, belongings, everything you know and are used to is cowardice. Good God, grow up a little.

How exactly are the fleeing men protecting their family by leaving them behind? Can you tell me what is their motivation for this?

[Deleted]

I am not drawing back from the discussion, I am just not getting involved with someone who is incapable of a discussion. You have just stated that it is based on intepretation, but are ignoring anything that could possibly contradict this view.)

In other words i proved my side, and you cba to disprove it but stick with your story despite providing any proof and labeling others morons for not believing what you believe. In other words: you dont have jackshit to debunk it. Got it. Guess its safer to run away then instead of making a fool out of yourself.

[Deleted]

How exactly are the fleeing men protecting their family by leaving them behind? Can you tell me what is their motivation for this?

How dare you ask him for sources and arguments! You know damn well he doesnt have to provide them to proof his point. And your a filthy racist for not immediately agreeing with him!

Am i doing it right?

[Pickwickman]

How exactly are the fleeing men protecting their family by leaving them behind? Can you tell me what is their motivation for this?

The idea is opening an avenue to save the rest of the family / household. It's incredibly expensive to get out of a country while you're getting hounded / there are border patrols by ISIS or the government trying to keep you inside.

It gets a lot easier if you're a refugee already at your destination and you want to bring over your wife and kids.

[Deleted]

So you have facts and numbers that call them cowards?

They are being helped, trained and supplied by the nato.

Added a source for the numbers (70%, not 80, my bad). When someones considered a coward is pretty subjective though. And I didnt call them one. I stated someone can interpreted young men fleeing from a warzone as cowards.

Could you like, read ONCE.

[Pickwickman]

How dare you ask him for sources and arguments! You know damn well he doesnt have to provide them to proof his point. And your a filthy racist for not immediately agreeing with him!

Am i doing it right?

No but you are a filthy racist for not being able to come up with anything to counter my point except for >These men are cowards!!!1!!

[Deleted]

Here we go again, another person focusing on one aspect, and then applying it to the whole.

Just answer the question. Unless you cant, then forever hold your peace.

[Azadina]

Here we go again, another person focusing on one aspect, and then applying it to the whole.

So you wish to deny it happens instead?

[Deleted]

No but you are a filthy racist for not being able to come up with anything to counter my point except for >These men are cowards!!!1!!

Added a source for the numbers (70%, not 80, my bad). When someones considered a coward is pretty subjective though. And I didnt call them one. I stated someone can interpreted young men fleeing from a warzone as cowards.

I hope your understanding of dutch is better.

[Pickwickman]

So you wish to deny it happens instead?

He/She didn't do any such thing, they just implied that the subject is convoluted and not as black and white as saying "lol these men left their family for their own safety such cowards :^)"

[dd614]

Germany has a solution: Kick hard-working Germans out of their homes to make room for the refugees.