High end raiding - Frost vs Arcane conundrum

[Vorrum]

Hello, first post - lets make it good.

So I would like to preface this post with information to keep in mind. I would like to make clear my preference for the Arcane spec that stems back to WotLK, the mana management aspect makes it even more fun to play for me. I find that playing as frost is much more dull, however it is much more effective in this raid tier with the many fights that require cleaving. I am currently in a guild that has heroic on farm and will be moving into mythic, I want to be as sure as I can of which spec I should pick and stay with. (I have trouble flip-flopping often due to my preference for one spec over another.)

So let me get into the main issue that I am having. I know how to play arcane, but I made the mistake of trying to play arcane with a low ilvl, so I've been frost for a long while now - to fine effect - however, now that I have my 4 pc and my class trinket, would arcane be a better choice? I know all too well that arcane gets better as you obtain a higher ilvl; I am currently at ilvl 707. However, most of the fights in this raid tier have opportunities to cleave, which for arcane can be difficult after you dump your two supernovas, at which point you're using barrage at 4 stacks for aoe damage. To compound this problem, I've been unlucky for the longest time (I recently came back about 4 weeks ago to raid with a friend) to not acquire a trinket off of Iskar or Mannoroth for the big AoE procs they have. I feel that this is a big deal as trinkets in this raid tier add what seems like 10-20% damage flat out to your overall dps. The other trinket I am using is a heroic version of the haste trinket off of Beastlord from BRF.

So with all of this in mind, would it be worth it to reforge and gem haste and change back to arcane to start my mythic raiding? Would it rather be better to just wait for a Iskar/Manno trinket? Is it even worth it, does frost have too much of a leg up because of the ability to easily cleave?

If you require any additional information of mine to give accurate advice, let me know. I cannot post my armory, simply search for Vorrum and I am the one from Korgath.

[Kuromaji]

theres no ultimate spec. arcane for st, frost for cleave.

period. arcane beats frost in cleave boss if you are best buddies with rngjesus and your mano trink procs alot. since you dont even have it yet...

as for stat wise, with frost weaving (you need to frost bolt before evry icelance) frost now loves haste, which makes you can go frost>haste>other stats for both specs.

[Polarthief]

Unless your guild is hardcore (which I assume it's not since you guys are JUST now doing Mythic), you can stick with one spec if you enjoy it a lot, or you can swap between the two.

Short summary: Arcane will beat out anything in single-target DPS if you can manage the rotation and get to stand a lot. Frost is better at cleave (especially on always-up 2 targets/short-term burst AoE), and has better mobility, due to its instant procs, but still does very well on ST (I mean it's in the top 3 on SimC and rivals even Arcane).

Trinkets: Regardless of which spec you're playing, you want Archimonde's class trinket. Frost then wants Iskar's (Sethe) and Arcane wants Mannoroth's (PoF). PoF makes Arcane very RNG-based (moreso than playing Fire) due to the random procs and if your Missiles are up or not.

Pick the spec you enjoy, or swap between the two on a per-fight basis if you choose to. You do not need to do both if you don't want to, and there is no real "right answer" unless you're trying to 100% min-max (again, this late into the tier; don't really have to since everything has been nerfed a bit already), which requires you to swap on a per-fight basis, but again, not mandatory to progress, even in Mythic (unless you were doing this progression months ago, then it's always mandatory to squeeze out every last drop of DPS when it's all pre-tuning).


PS: Oh hey fellow Korgathian!

[Deleted]

To be perfectly honest with you, the main defining factor is that Frost is just so damn easy to play right now on end-game gear. It is literally 2-3 spells in almost all fights for 95% of the time, and it can even move a lot. Arcane is the extreme opposite, in end game gear it becomes more complex (especially because of the Mannoroth trinket), on top of what it was already, and it can't even move as much on top, or not without managing other spells.

That means something very simple, or at least it means it if you look at the logs too. Arcane is "theoretically better" in a lot of fights, I dare say ALL fights to be honest, because I don't think there is a single 1 fight that Arcane wouldn't be better on 100% gameplay efficiency. OK something like Velhari that you only cleave 1 extra might be a good exception.

However, at the end of the day, the real defining factors is not just that, it's 1) This, i.e. how far you can play optimally in a messy fight with it, 2) The strategy and setup, and 3) How stable and tidy your team is because Arcane loves consistency, it's not that great in progress that stuff get shuffled around.

[Ipsissimus]

The difference that your enchants (and gems, if lucky) make is negligible compared to how the specs perform on different fights. Each fight, and on some of them each tactic, has a spec which functions better than the others. You can look at the stat weights yourself (via simcraft or wherever else) to see that the difference won't be massive.

With that in mind, I'd recommend gemming and enchanting towards what you prefer playing in general, and then swapping between the two specs depending on the encounter's needs. We're due for a very long stay in Hellfire Citadel until the next expansion is on the horizon, you'd only burn yourself out more by only playing one spec.
Hell, I'll probably play Fire too sooner than later.

If you do want to stick to just one spec, Frost is probably better given its consistency and easier execution. However, both specs work just fine. Hell, even Fire does. At this point you won't really be hindering your raid group by playing whichever spec you enjoy most.

[Deleted]

Echant/gem for haste and go Arcane: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/8#class=Mage . Also note the better prio target dmg as arcane - arcane is good on all fights, while frost is quiet useless on quiet a lot bossfights: Assault/Iron Reaver/Kormrok/Gorefiend/Killrog/Zakuun/Xhul. With 4p + class trinket frost is no more a mobile spec, since you cannot just spam FoF procs; also consider that you have to tunnel the boss during WJ and use IL on prio adds, so a continous trg switching is mandatory; on fights like Assault you simply cannot play frost since the possible WJ targets die before the channeling ends... Frost is also quiet useless in the belly (Gorefiend) compared to arcane. Iron Reaver air phase -> frost has imparied dmg, since it is more than unlikely to find proper WJ targets. Killrog: WE must be resummoned after Visions + very hard to hit prio targets with IL during WJ since they are not even close to the boss. Btw since both arcane and frost gem/ench for haste it is really easy to switch between the two.

Aye and another reason to go arcane (and fire): arcane has the best opener and most insane burst damage, and since bosses die fast these burst builds outperform frost so hard even on sustained cleave fights like council/tyrant/archi: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...e&difficulty=4 so frost is so dead in high ilvl raids (even if your own ilvl isn't that high but your guildmates' are). Arcane has new opener with PoF: precast Presence of Mind; prepot at almost 0, like -0.5, drop PC (and macro it with Arcane Power), hit PC with instant ABlast, cast AB if no PoF procced, cast AM if PoF procced. Fire is very good (outperforms frost easily; except mythic archi) since it has insane burst that can be lined up with ring (so it is the exact same reason as in arcane's case). But fire is very gear dependent: you need full crit ench/gems + good crit trinkets, like mythic iron reaver piston, and mythic Oregorger trinket from BRF. Also note that fire is a semi-melee class that makes it a higher skillcap spec (you have to go melee during safe periods, like during allure on archi, and go back to your normal ranged position while any effect that hits ranged players only is probable - like kick ups after allure), since Dragon's Breath is a core part of our ratation, and we want to cast it on cooldown (+glyph and cold snap talent it). Fire is best on Xhul/Iskar (any diff) and on Archi (up to HC). I could pull 101k on archi HC as fire (715ilvl; unfortunately the pug wiped at 3% so my log was not ranked...) while my frost record was some 80k. Also fire is almost RNG free since with trinket procs one can reach nearly 100% crit, and trinkets like 6/6 sandman's pouch has a 2 min internal cd, which means that it is almost always possible to PC+ring+combust with the crit buff up (and you can always open with 100% crit), so fire has a quiet reliable performance even on st fights.

[Deleted]

Lovassy, you have to play frost before talking because a lot of what you say is wrong. e.g. Frost remains very mobile on end-game gear. You just have to know how to use the GCD downtime.


Arcane can not use that that easily since AB and AM eat through the GCD.

[Ironsquidlol]

theres no ultimate spec. arcane for st, frost for cleave.

period. arcane beats frost in cleave boss if you are best buddies with rngjesus and your mano trink procs alot. since you dont even have it yet...

as for stat wise, with frost weaving (you need to frost bolt before evry icelance) frost now loves haste, which makes you can go frost>haste>other stats for both specs.

Pretty sure multistrike is still better than haste on frost.

If you were haste gems/enchants on arcane, and you had to go frost for 1 fight, it wouldn't be bad. Having said that, if you were MS gem/enchants as frost and had to go arcane for a 1 fight, it wouldn't be bad either, PoF can multistrike.

[Deleted]

Lovassy, you have to play frost before talking because a lot of what you say is wrong. e.g. Frost remains very mobile on end-game gear. You just have to know how to use the GCD downtime.


Arcane can not use that that easily since AB and AM eat through the GCD.

Frost is a dead spec (only exception is mythic archi), i linked wlogs, anyone can see that it is dead. The reason is obvious, it has low burst/opener compared to arc/fire, and with ring+shorter fights opener+2nd ring became the most important part of our damage. Frost was good on low movement fights anyway (tyrant/council). I never had movement problems as arcane, since i almost never ran out of Ice Flows/blinks/ATs, and fire gave me the best results with movement, i hardly used IFlows or blinks, even on archi hc - with pyro chains one can just run after allure and use instants. If i consider all the 3 specs, frost only is the worst choice since it is very bad for many fights, while picking arc/fire for all fights is viable. (the op asked for a spec that was fine for ALL fights in hfc) Not to mention how easy it is to play frost (and how boring). With the 4p+class trinket many frost mages are slacking on fight mechanisms, they are just tunneling the boss and they fail to IL prio targets while they are channeling WJ on the boss - ok i admit that it is not a problem, since in high ilvl raids adds die fast anyway, i just don't like this mentality. The gameplay with many target switching is still easy but at least a bit more fun.

[Cebel]

get the mannoroth trinket and then you'll only really play frost on maybe council, tyrant for sure, and then archimonde dependent one what your guild stuggles with the most.. If its adds then go frost, if its doomfire then go arcane.

[Ironsquidlol]

Frost is a dead spec (only exception is mythic archi), i linked wlogs, anyone can see that it is dead. The reason is obvious, it has low burst/opener compared to arc/fire, and with ring+shorter fights opener+2nd ring became the most important part of our damage. Frost was good on low movement fights anyway (tyrant/council). I never had movement problems as arcane, since i almost never ran out of Ice Flows/blinks/ATs, and fire gave me the best results with movement, i hardly used IFlows or blinks, even on archi hc - with pyro chains one can just run after allure and use instants. If i consider all the 3 specs, frost only is the worst choice since it is very bad for many fights, while picking arc/fire for all fights is viable. (the op asked for a spec that was fine for ALL fights in hfc) Not to mention how easy it is to play frost (and how boring). With the 4p+class trinket many frost mages are slacking on fight mechanisms, they are just tunneling the boss and they fail to IL prio targets while they are channeling WJ on the boss - ok i admit that it is not a problem, since in high ilvl raids adds die fast anyway, i just don't like this mentality. The gameplay with many target switching is still easy but at least a bit more fun.

I don't think WJ the boss is the problem, it's having to weave FB into adds first before IL...

Having said that, you could use both proc trinkets as frost if there's a lot of priority switching instead of class trinket. Not optimal, but it can get the job done. I'm not saying it's better than other specs, just saying it can be worked out.

[Deleted]

I don't think WJ the boss is the problem, it's having to weave FB into adds first before IL...

While WJ is active you have to hit its target with all your FBs in order to gain newer FoF procs, so it is not an option to FB the adds, only ILs should be casted on prio adds. So basically you WJ the boss (or any add(miniboss on Xhul) that will not die while the pet is channeling WJ onto the add) cast FBs on the WJ target, but right after the FB casting has started you target a prio add, and right after FB castbar is in the safe zone (you cannot interrupt it), you cast IL, right after jump back onto your focus (during the gcd) and strat a new FB cast. Shatterlance is a self buff with a very short duration, so it is irrelevant which target your IL hits, you just have to cast it within that time window.

[Ironsquidlol]

While WJ is active you have to hit its target with all your FBs in order to gain never FoF procs, so it is not an option to FB the adds, only ILs should be casted on prio adds. So basically you WJ the boss (or any add(miniboss on Xhul) that will not die while the pet is channeling WJ onto the add) cast FBs on the WJ target, but right after the FB casting has started you target a prio add, and right after FB castbar is in the safe zone (you cannot interrupt it), you cast IL, right after jump back onto your focus (during the gcd) and strat a new FB cast. Shatterlance is a self buff with a very short duration, so it is irrelevant which target your IL hits, you just have to cast it within that time window.

Yeah brain fart. But you could still use both proc trinkets instead of the class trinket to make it less dependent on weaving for priority target fights. Not ideal, but could be done, maybe use thermal void also.

[Zelendria]

Frost is a dead spec (only exception is mythic archi), i linked wlogs, anyone can see that it is dead. The reason is obvious, it has low burst/opener compared to arc/fire, and with ring+shorter fights opener+2nd ring became the most important part of our damage. Frost was good on low movement fights anyway (tyrant/council). I never had movement problems as arcane, since i almost never ran out of Ice Flows/blinks/ATs, and fire gave me the best results with movement, i hardly used IFlows or blinks, even on archi hc - with pyro chains one can just run after allure and use instants. If i consider all the 3 specs, frost only is the worst choice since it is very bad for many fights, while picking arc/fire for all fights is viable. (the op asked for a spec that was fine for ALL fights in hfc) Not to mention how easy it is to play frost (and how boring). With the 4p+class trinket many frost mages are slacking on fight mechanisms, they are just tunneling the boss and they fail to IL prio targets while they are channeling WJ on the boss - ok i admit that it is not a problem, since in high ilvl raids adds die fast anyway, i just don't like this mentality. The gameplay with many target switching is still easy but at least a bit more fun.

By the time your opener is making a considerable influence on your total DPS the fight is trivial. 1-2m Reaver and such like and what spec you are really makes no difference at all.
Why put so much emphasis on your opener when ultimately it's everything after the opener that will decide how you finish.

If the OP wants to do his job properly as a ranged DPS target switching on a regular basis you don't pick Fire. Just because Fire can push numbers doesn't mean it's doing it on the right target. So what if you can do a 3m Combustion on the boss while adds wipe the group

[Vorrum]

By the time your opener is making a considerable influence on your total DPS the fight is trivial. 1-2m Reaver and such like and what spec you are really makes no difference at all.
Why put so much emphasis on your opener when ultimately it's everything after the opener that will decide how you finish.

If the OP wants to do his job properly as a ranged DPS target switching on a regular basis you don't pick Fire. Just because Fire can push numbers doesn't mean it's doing it on the right target. So what if you can do a 3m Combustion on the boss while adds wipe the group

While I can agree not putting so much emphasis on the initial burst arcane can do, fights where you would go frost for aoe, why can't I go fire? You say that I should control my dps so I am hitting the right things by going frost, but for fights like Xhul, I go fire and actually help by dragons breathing the imps to stop their casting, while doing great damage with the dragons breath glyph. Am I missing something where I'll need to be careful with my damage? Maybe a mythic mechanic I don't know of? I'm not trying to be an ass, genuinely confused.

[Deleted]

Yeah brain fart. But you could still use both proc trinkets instead of the class trinket to make it less dependent on weaving for priority target fights. Not ideal, but could be done, maybe use thermal void also.

According to AlteredTime changing the class trinket to PoF (all trinkets HC) is -3k dps loss. But messing up the rotation and losing FoF procs is the real problem. If you WJ a target that will die before WJ ends that's a huge dps loss, casting FBs to another target than the WJ target is also a huge dps loss, since you are losing FoF procs. These dps losses are independent from your trinket selection (tho doing these misplays with class trinket equipped causes further dps loss). UM/IForRoP/TV is the default frost build; the longer lasting WJs along with proper IL weaving greatly extends IV uptime if TV is selected, so it results in higher dps than any other lvl100 talents.

[Deleted]

Frost is a dead spec (only exception is mythic archi), i linked wlogs, anyone can see that it is dead.

Anyone that looks at the top and discards all others parameters, yes.

- - - Updated - - -

multistrike is still better than haste on frost.

Not always.

[Deleted]

If the OP wants to do his job properly as a ranged DPS target switching on a regular basis you don't pick Fire. Just because Fire can push numbers doesn't mean it's doing it on the right target. So what if you can do a 3m Combustion on the boss while adds wipe the group

You cannot judge the usefulness of a given spec in general, you always have to consider the bossfight in question. Fire is totally useless on Killrog, even compared to frost, while on archi fire does more dmg on prio trgs than frost. Arcane is the only mage spec that can always switch on the prio targets without problems. In competitive raiding we can say that in most situations mage=arcane mage. Arcane mage is one of the best range dps specs in the whole game (and it is the best caster), so mastering it is the most beneficial thing that a player can do. It is also very hard to find a fight where the ultimate top ST spec goes useless, it's just almost impossible, while cleave/aoe niche specs are useless on most fights. Good ST output is much more important than cleave/aoe dmg, since most (almost all) bossfights requires some raid members with high ST; the same cannot be said of cleave specs. Aoe builds are in an even bigger struggle, since most fights simply do not need this type of damage - even if they do the highest, but useless dmg. The OP said he likes arcane, and also that he can play arcane well, also arcane is the best caster in 6.2, i cannot see any reason to encourage him to play frost, which is currently the worst mage spec (discounting archi mythic).

[Ironsquidlol]

Not always.

An explanation would be nice. Outside of small breakpoints that you can't really gear around, what is it?

[Deleted]

An explanation would be nice. Outside of small breakpoints that you can't really gear around, what is it?

You can overdo it and lose some dps compared to holding back a bit and use haste (for instance) instead of multistrike. It's really not important though, those differences will never be noticed.

For example, the results I had here on on the gear I had weeks back: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post36097836

You can see it both happened but also it wasn't anything dramatic.