Was the removal of valor points one of WoD biggest mis-steps to lack of content

[Armbre]

This was a large mis-step of WoD, second only to how isolating/necessary the garrisons felt.

[Moggie]

It's not the currency that was a big 'mis-step' nor was it considered part of contents. They could replace it with anything, including rocks and dirt and it'd been fine, if there was a point to them while being useful. Apexis Crystals are fine for currency, had there'd been anything useful within a reasonable timeframe to spend it on.

[Deleted]

Funny how people think that stuff suddenly becomes "content" because you need to grind it.

Apparently BC and WotLK just became content again because...timewalking?

It is content, just not good content. If you needed to grind hours a day for mats for flasks, elixirs, pots, crafting items like the belt of blasting in TBC, that was still content because you needed to invest time into the end-game that was outside of raiding. There is nothing like that in WoD. Other than split-running and going hardcore on raid hours like Method and Paragon do, you can't do anything outside of raiding that will benefit raiding other than the first few weeks of the expansion. You can't...no life WoD really.

[primalmatter]

Considering it wasn't content no?

Why do people have a fixation on grinding easy content they can't fail to outgear content that should be challenging for them but won't be by the time they out gear it though said easy content.

[Taeldorian]

Honestly I have to vote yes. In mop I always que'd for dungeons either by myself or grouped up with friends and did it that way because I could get my justice/valor cap that way. Valor had gear gated behind it which kept me doing dungeons for that gear, especially when I was falling behind, and justice points allowed me to get gear for transmog from cata and wrath. Now we just get that treasure chest from a raid difficulty every two weeks from missions. Rather than going out and doing the dungeons for the gear, it comes to me as a mission every two weeks. I didn't like MOP that much but I certainly had more to do when valor/justice was a thing.

[Marmot]

Considering it wasn't content no?

Why do people have a fixation on grinding easy content they can't fail to outgear content that should be challenging for them but won't be by the time they out gear it though said easy content.

Why is Diablo 3 more fun when more legendary items drop even when you don't need them?

I don't think WoD particularly lacks content overall, but I personally think it lacks any serious reason to do any of the content. There's loads of stuff I could go log in and do right now, but what would be the point? Some measly garrison resources or apexis crystals? What would I even do with them at this point..? There's nothing engaging or fun about any of the current content.

[Neri25]

Funny how people think that stuff suddenly becomes "content" because you need to grind it.

Having SHIT TO DO is important for keeping people engaged. Yeh it's grindy, it was also reasonably varied and helped further personal goals via gear/heirlooms.

While WoD has some SHIT TO DO, the reward aspect was entirely gutted.

Available achievable grinds keep people playing the game, keep people interested in playing the game, keep them in the game's ecosystem where over time they may become interested in other parts of the game.

[laplacedemon]

I get the 'carrot' thing WoD lacks, but putting people in a dungeon or scenario they can solo even as a healer wasn't exactly 'good' either. I don't think it makes sense to tie always-current rewards to content designed to be done by people who just dinged max level.

[ro9ue]

Pretty much gave no incentive to run dungeons after you hit 630 ilevel which was about 2 weeks into the expansion. So I'd say yes.

[melodramocracy]

I wouldn't call it one of the biggest, though it's likely a contributing factor.

[Deleted]

Yes, screwing up the Justice/Valor system and replacing it with completely worthless special currencies was a huge mistake. I don't know wtf was the dev team thinking about. ><

One of? Yes but WoD was a collective jar of fail.

This.

[blobbydan]

Lets not forget above all, they allowed for groups of friends to do those things together and have fun.

This killed the game for my friends and I. In one move they destroyed the content my friends and I had enjoyed together for many years. Whoever thought it was a good idea to gut dungeons and utterly destroy dailies should be fired immediately.

[Kazgrel]

Problem isn't the change from valor points to apexis crystals. It's the lack of anything particularly valuable they can be spent on. Yee haw, blue gear equal to what you already got from the dungeon, or some reskinned mounts. Can't even use them for heirlooms, iirc. That was one major driving force for people farming dungeons for VP/JP back in the day.

[Lucetia]

I honestly think if WoD continued to have the item level upgrade system and valor points, players would have a lot more to do and complain a lot less about the lack of content.

I'd prefer they stay away. The item upgrade was basically added in a way to slowly nerf the raid over time.

As for Valor Points they serve the exact same purpose as Apexis Crystals right now with the exception that they don't require a group and can be grinded out at any point with no cap.

Valor Points didn't give us any content at all. What it did was allowed us to run outdated heroics, scenarios, raids all in the name of gaining +4 item levels (via upgrade) or buying a piece (which you can do with Apexis). Running old content that you outgrew and can steam roll isn't really content to me. That's just trying to make outdated stuff irrelevant (see Timewalking currently).

[Kazgrel]

I'd prefer they stay away. The item upgrade was basically added in a way to slowly nerf the raid over time.

As for Valor Points they serve the exact same purpose as Apexis Crystals right now with the exception that they don't require a group and can be grinded out at any point with no cap.

Valor Points didn't give us any content at all. What it did was allowed us to run outdated heroics, scenarios, raids all in the name of gaining +4 item levels (via upgrade) or buying a piece (which you can do with Apexis). Running old content that you outgrew and can steam roll isn't really content to me. That's just trying to make outdated stuff irrelevant (see Timewalking currently).

I despised that whole ilvl upgrade nonsense, despite the hilarity that ensued where I would tank as an ele shaman and my friends and I would 5 dps the dungeons. Even as fast as we were knocking those things out, they felt like a giant mental drag.

[Gorgodeus]

I am still waiting to hear why Valor points = content.

[Lucetia]

I despised that whole ilvl upgrade nonsense, despite the hilarity that ensued where I would tank as an ele shaman and my friends and I would 5 dps the dungeons. Even as fast as we were knocking those things out, they felt like a giant mental drag.

Yeah the whole mental drag was another reason why I dislike them. If you wanted to stay competitive or not feel bad you had to cap each week or close. Everything felt like a chore instead of enjoying it (which you should be able to enjoy the content you do).

[angelmaz]

In the past people of various skill sets and looking to accomplish different things all had a reason to run multiple different events together. With the removal of valor/badges for example now less people have a reason to do lower difficulty raids or 5 mans. Say we look back at old versions in the same group we could have one person running just to get rep, another for badges, one to do some sort of quest and others that actually wanted the gear from that dungeon/raid. Now there is no cross over like that. For the sake of just changing things to change them in an absurd attempt to save the players from themselves they gutted a long running core feature of the game.

- - - Updated - - -

Now they keep further splitting the players apart offering multiple difficulties and odd events like mythic weekends or timewalking. Instead of just making it so people with different motivations can all do what they are looking to do in the same group.

Great, great post.

[Lucetia]

Now they keep further splitting the players apart offering multiple difficulties and odd events like mythic weekends or timewalking. Instead of just making it so people with different motivations can all do what they are looking to do in the same group.

I'd rather Timewalking be something like the below. (Levels aren't correct, but gives the idea for the thought)

Current System:
15-16: You unlock Ragefire Chasm + Stormwind Stockades
17-18: Unlocked Deadmines + Shadowfang Keep (The previous two are there due to still be level relevant).
*warp to level 30"
30-32: Scholomance (Previous dungeons no longer accessible)

Preferred System (imo):
15-16: You unlock Ragefire Chasm + Stormwind Stockades
17-18: Unlocked Deadmines + Shadowfang Keep (The previous two are there due to still be level relevant).
*warp to level 30"
30-32: Scholomance + RFC + Stockades + Deadmines + SFK

as well as if you are level 30 and do a RFC quest the XP scales up to your level and the items scale (like current timewalking).

This way you have the current dungeons available and past dungeons available (for those who enjoyed them or missed doing them). It also keeps them slightly more relevant and opens up more gear choices. Also, it might even help alleviate the queues because at 100 you'd have every dungeon available to be in the queue and you would just downgrade to them.

Granted this would be for normal. For Heroic you can have them all included minus Vanilla (aside from those with heroic modes). Mythic right now would just be current content (unless they added in Mythic mode for past dungeons).

The added benefit of this would be for those who want to run Challenge modes and prefer gear with say crit/mast, crit/haste, mast/haste combinations they could run MoP specific instances to get the gear that will scale up rather than WoD's idea of "randomized stats on gear"

OMG a big YES The apexis grind is infinitely worse and more punishing--at least mentally-- than valor grinding. A mmo has many players, myself included that work towards measurable goals. Knowing I can farm points to get worthwhile gear like valor and valor upgrades helped me manage my time better. Apexis had me just say heck with it when I saw the large amount of crystals needed plus the crap gear you bought with it--who made that decision?

The launch gear I can agree, but with Tanaan apexis gear it's pretty easy to grind the gear up in a few minutes. Especially with the dailies there rewarding 1-2k crystals and each piece only costing 5k.

[Kallisto]

Honestly in the grand scale of things I find little to no difference between Apexis and Valour/JP once you scratch beneath the surface. The latter is really just Valour renamed and with a different number required to purchase gear. It's not really that different at all.