Most Frost Mages taking Thermal Void when SimCraft shows Prismatic Crystal higher.

[Deleted]

Why are they doing it? I currently suspect it's because it's more consistent in the real world, it's just an almost certain way to get optimal results when the Crystal will have at least a minimal downtime compared to it. But if that is true, then it might mean something similar for Arcane, though for arcane the burn is a much higher contribution than few seconds on Icy Veins or a few Fingers of Frost to burn so I guess there the risk is much higher not taking it.

[AvCloudy]

Why are they doing it? I currently suspect it's because it's more consistent in the real world, it's just an almost certain way to get optimal results when the Crystal will have at least a minimal downtime compared to it. But if that is true, then it might mean something similar for Arcane, though for arcane the burn is a much higher contribution than few seconds on Icy Veins or a few Fingers of Frost to burn so I guess there the risk is much higher not taking it.

Prismatic Crystal is only better than thermal void for frost when there are basically no adds for the duration of the fight that you can cleave onto. It's basically there so you have a cleave target for Ice Lance. Set Simcraft to a non-Patchwerk setting and you'll see TV outstrips PC.

[Deleted]

Prismatic Crystal is only better than thermal void for frost when there are basically no adds for the duration of the fight that you can cleave onto. It's basically there so you have a cleave target for Ice Lance. Set Simcraft to a non-Patchwerk setting and you'll see TV outstrips PC.

Not really. Most people are seeing PC better on Patchwerk. I think I saw TV better on a setup I had but at least for what I have today PC appears better on sims.

[cloud7928]

That's exactly what AvCloudy said. PC is better on Patchwork. For everything else TV produces better numbers than PC.

[Deleted]

Sorry, yes. Well in that case they still take TV even with 1 add up or no add up most of the time. I doubt that shifts it too much to matter.

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"Hectic add cleave" appears to be better on PC here.

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Hm. I think I'll play more with some of the number of mobs options. It seems to have juice there.

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10 patchwerks at the same time appear to increase DPS with PC. hm..

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Let's get some results printed:

(Unstable Magic, Incanter's Flow)

Patchwerk x1:
Thermal Void: 77.5K DPS MIN
Prismatic Crystal: 80.6K DPS MAX

Hectic Add Cleave x1:
Thermal Void: 66.0K DPS MIN
Prismatic Crystal: 75.0K DPS MAX

Helter Skelter x1:
Thermal Void: 64.4K DPS MIN
Prismatic Crystal: 69.1K DPS MAX

Patchwerk x10:
Thermal Void: 126.5K DPS MIN
Prismatic Crystal: 147.2K DPS MAX

Hectic Add Cleave x10:
Thermal Void: 159.2K DPS MIN
Prismatic Crystal: 168.3K DPS MAX

Helter Skelter x10:
Thermal Void: 107.9K DPS MIN
Prismatic Crystal: 128.1K DPS MAX

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So what settings are turning TV better?

[Summer]

I think most of us are arcane for single target and frost for cleave fights so hence not many crystals for frost mages :P

[Deleted]

Listen. All this is theory and simulations. On them it looks like that, but can you execute it in real fight? I dont think so, atleast no so many of the player base have the skill and the reaction time to execute frost rotation at 100% efficiency. Also you have to keep in mind that for PC to work the target dont have to move for 15 seconds. On hetic fights this might be a little harder.
Just try it in a real environment also known as current raid tier or Hellfire citadel. I at least did. With my 54% ms raid buffed its a lot easy and better to go just with the passive tallents. If you dont have so much ms you wont have so much procs to choose from then you could probably execute the rotation on PC more efficiently, but when you swim in procs and nova charges its hard. Until you decide what you blow on the crystal its duration is over and you are fucked.
On the matter for single target - arcane is "better" than frost only because of PoF trinket, and in that scenario im only around 5 to 7k dps behinde our arcane mage, but still haven't tried to race with him when i have Iskar trinket. Now i even have the mythic one so we will see how that goes

[Deleted]

I think most of us are arcane for single target and frost for cleave fights so hence not many crystals for frost mages :P

I don't get this. Since we play Arcane we get used to PC. So why "not many crystals"?

Unless you mean they get bored of it.

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but can you execute it in real fight?

That's my initial thought. It's so darn easier to play TV. You can practically be robot/simcraft-efficient for pretty much most of the fight in several encounters.


That actually makes me think to explore that venue in Arcane but I believe there the main idea is that the burn phase is so extremely important.

[NexiiTank]

I don't get this. Since we play Arcane we get used to PC. So why "not many crystals"?

Unless you mean they get bored of it.

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That's my initial thought. It's so darn easier to play TV. You can practically be robot/simcraft-efficient for pretty much most of the fight in several encounters.

The reason most use TV is the 4 piece. You WJ on pull get 4 FoF, PoP TV and weave like hell. Instead of the 20s TV would normally be up, It can be kept up for at least a minute, I have even had some pulls with 2+, using WJ and Frozon Orb. 1-2min of TV is better than the DPS gain from PC.

[Deleted]

The reason most use TV is the 4 piece. You WJ on pull get 4 FoF, PoP TV and weave like hell. Instead of the 20s TV would normally be up, It can be kept up for at least a minute, I have even had some pulls with 2+, using WJ and Frozon Orb. 1-2min of TV is better than the DPS gain from PC.

Those are conceptual reasons though. I also thought of things like that. But at the end of the day SimCraft shows PC better so the reasons are not just technical on rotation alone.


It is though a good way to show what a "mess" it is if you go crystal.


It makes the rotation practically about 4 times harder.

[Deleted]

Why are they doing it? I currently suspect it's because it's more consistent in the real world, it's just an almost certain way to get optimal results when the Crystal will have at least a minimal downtime compared to it. But if that is true, then it might mean something similar for Arcane, though for arcane the burn is a much higher contribution than few seconds on Icy Veins or a few Fingers of Frost to burn so I guess there the risk is much higher not taking it.

If the boss will be moved your PC is wasted.

Static fights usually have adds and TV is better anyway.

[Deleted]

If the boss will be moved your PC is wasted.

Static fights usually have adds and TV is better anyway.

No it's not just that. They still take TV when there is no such movement issue.


And I still wonder what SimCraft settings show TV better on AOE.

Multiple bosses, helter skelter and cleave show PC better here.

[AvCloudy]

Sorry for being unclear; TV isn't better on AOE its better when you can consistently cleave throughout a fight. Glyph of Splitting Ice is the culprit here, PC is the highest single target dps but if you can consistently cleave throughout a fight (every fight in HFC but Reaver, most of Council, Kormrok, Gorefiend and Zakuun off the top of my head), TV is better. And these are good Arcane fights, so a lot of frost mages never use PC.

By settings, i just meant turn the number of targets up to 2, and you should see significant (~2k) dps increases from using TV, especially with 4pc.

[Deleted]

Sorry for being unclear; TV isn't better on AOE its better when you can consistently cleave throughout a fight. Glyph of Splitting Ice is the culprit here, PC is the highest single target dps but if you can consistently cleave throughout a fight (every fight in HFC but Reaver, most of Council, Kormrok, Gorefiend and Zakuun off the top of my head), TV is better. And these are good Arcane fights, so a lot of frost mages never use PC.

By settings, i just meant turn the number of targets up to 2, and you should see significant (~2k) dps increases from using TV, especially with 4pc.

Hrm, on multiple patchwerks,

1 bosses TV: 77.5K DPS MIN
1 bosses PC: 81.0K DPS MAX

2 bosses TV: 105.4K DPS MAX
2 bosses PC: 103.1K DPS MIN

3 bosses TV: 112.4K DPS MAX
3 bosses PC: 109.4K DPS MIN

4 TV 56.2K DPS (wut?)
4 PC 72.8K DPS

5 TV 71.0K DPS (wut?)
5 PC 86.6K DPS

6 TV 86.7K DPS (wut?)
6 PC 102.5K DPS

7 bosses TV: 104.2K DPS MIN
7 bosses PC: 118.0K DPS MAX

10 bosses TV: 159.7K DPS MIN
10 bosses PC: 166.9K DPS MAX


The scripts appear buggy around the 4th patchwerk added. I'm not sure if they should be trusted in whole. Or if it's better to go with other types of encounters.


I also found that the if frostfire bolt during water jet gets a prio on 2 stacks of brain freeze, it is a small dps boost here (unlike the default script).

[Woobels]

How often do you ask this question.
People play TV on Zakuun and stuff because it's easier and less annoying to play.
I haven't checked but last time I did look the highest parse in that boss was TV, short fight time plus long IV uptime is quite good.

[Deleted]

That 4th to 6th boss discrepancy is now reported to SimCraft bugs.

How often do you ask this question.
People play TV on Zakuun and stuff because it's easier and less annoying to play.
I haven't checked but last time I did look the highest parse in that boss was TV, short fight time plus long IV uptime is quite good.

Some of us prefer more depth than the "I just copy what's best available on warcraft logs". It's not just a hobby. Some of the best parses are irrelevant to the gameplay in regular progress.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

I'm fairly certain 4 is when the AOE APL comes into play and it starts trying to Blizzard, which there's been next to no optimization behind.

I'm curious where you added FFB priority for a gain, given that the APL already has FFB priority on 2 stacks during WJ.

ETA: To answer the original question, a lot of fights require a specific target to be burnt. PC's meteor effect kinda kills that. Where Arcane can simply run Orb, Frost needs to go TV to not drop off on priority target damage.

actions+=/call_action_list,name=aoe,if=active_enemies>=4

[Deleted]

I'm curious where you added FFB priority for a gain

Just copy pasted the line about brain freeze on 2 stacks before the ice lance on the water jet sequence (on the 2nd line of it).


It was a small gain of about 300 DPS.

[Toijin]

My reason is cause TV is simply easier to use and i hate PC with a passion. Hell i even prefer CS cause it looks prettier.

[Deleted]

My reason is cause TV is simply easier to use and i hate PC with a passion. Hell i even prefer CS cause it looks prettier.

And that would be the biggest point for nearly anyone. Frost + PC is just pain in the ass. Beside the obvious micro to order WJ+PC+Orb is just a lot more pain than for arcane.