Is it time to kill the second tank?

[Pua]

[I've moved the discussion to this poll, as it more accurately captures the thoughts expressed so far.]

Simple question, I suppose.

For several years now, the insistence on having two tanks in every raid has felt overly contrived. Too many encounters essentially throw in a tank-swap, and not a lot else, which is becoming a less tenable reason to have to gear and maintain two (or more) tanks for every raid guild and/or group. Because all of the tanks are now largely identical in their capabilities, there appears to be even less reason to ensure that two are in every group.

Look at Hellfire Citadel:

Where are the mechanics that necessitate two tanks other than bland swaps?

And if we removed the need for a permanent second tank, what mechanics could be put in instead?

Think about it like this - imagine that guild groups only used a single tank, but there was a requirement every few encounters for another. Could the role of the Demonology warlock or Enhancement shaman be reviewed, given their utility toolkits? Could Retribution paladins, Frost death knights or Arms warriors fill in when required? Could the mechanics such as cleaves, saber lashes or stacking debuffs that necessitate two tanks be rethought altogether? Could adds streaming be CC'd or kited rather than just rounded up and melted?

It's also worth noting that due to gear-sharing amongst specs, it's now never been easier to shelve the constant second tank in favour of more interesting mechanics.

So, what do you think? Votes in the usual way.

[Raqubor]

Hell no, I want them to make encounters require MORE tanks, not less.
I'd like if a raid comp required 4 tanks so that people who want to tank can actually play the role and that we have more tanks around.

[Pua]

Hell no, I want them to make encounters require MORE tanks, not less.
I'd like if a raid comp required 4 tanks so that people who want to tank can actually play the role and that we have more tanks around.

I hadn't really thought of it like that, but it's certainly a valid approach. The problem is possibly:

"How many tanks is enough?"

That might make rostering them difficult but, then again, if we expanded the possibilities of Retribution, Frost, Arms, Enhancement and Demonology as mentioned... It's also a break from the current consignment.

Good post.

[PenguinChan]

If the DPS and healers went along with that extra tank, sure. I see no reason to remove a role presence in a raid that is already low, I can only see removing or replacing other roles (Such as DPS with more tanks, healers, etc.)

[Accendor]

Erm..if so many people want to play tanks, why is it always the tanks my groups are lacking in raids and 5 mans?

See, this is a doom loop. There is not enough room in raids for tanks, so they play tank or healer instead. But if one tank decides to quit a raid it is hard to find a new one because everyone who wanted to tank is now playing DD or healer.

[Zka]

Tank swaps almost always feel forced and stupid. I'd like to see that mechanic go.

[Wries]

Personally I've pretty much avoided having to tank raids. In 5-mans I enjoy it, I set the pace and I have a set responsibility at all times to have control of all engaged mobs.

I guess some might like the dynamic that has to be developed for two-tank encounters such as raids, but I've just found the tank-swap mechanics of every other fight rather boring. It feels to me like responsibility literally cut in half, and half of the time I'm just a low-dps.

I'd like seeing one-tank raids. That would have gotten ME to tank raids more often. But I don't feel like I have the biggest say in this, as people who are tanking raids way more than me might feel different about this.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

I don't think every boss should require 2 tanks and the tank swap mechanic is overused...I'd hate to see them switch to a single tank system for every fight.

[Pua]

I don't think every boss should require 2 tanks and the tank swap mechanic is overused...I'd hate to see them switch to a single tank system for every fight.

I'm not really suggesting they use one-tank for every fight - I'm saying that it might be preferable for the default number to be one, with interesting mechanics, rather than two with a taunt swap or saber lash every boss.

As Raqubor hinted, I like the idea of one devoted raid tank, but potentially having encounters that require three or four assuming the "offtank" role can be filled easily.

Essentially, with the default number of tanks being two (no more, no less), we end up with either a taunt swap, or a set of adds to round up and melt.

It seems dull and overused to me.

[PosPosPos]

Sure, but only if 10 man raiding returns.

[Deleted]

More like we need 3 tanks. It needs smarter ideas than the swaping and 'tank the ads' things.


However, the whole role is torture since it's less about showing off and more about helping others. People are naturally vain and they don't like such roles. Healers are inbetween since they get to show some numbers.

[Aydinx2]

Erm..if so many people want to play tanks, why is it always the tanks my groups are lacking in raids and 5 mans?

Ofc..could be just my battlegroup...but has been an issue since Classic.

As a tank it's harder to get a raid group, since there's only 2 people needed to fill your role(as opposed to 2-5 healers). Due to this there are simply less tank players.

[Howard Moon]

I'm all for requiring more than one tank, but I wish the mechanics were a little more creative than the usual "swap at 3 stacks". :/

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

As a tank it's harder to get a raid group, since there's only 2 people needed to fill your role(as opposed to 2-5 healers). Due to this there are simply less tank players.

The reason there are less tank players is because people don't want the responsibility of tanking.

Demand for tanks is almost always greater than the supply. It is not harder to get a raid group as a Tank.

[Deleted]

It's not easy to improve it.

- If you move the boss it's annoying to DPSes and others when done excessively, so "move it around a lot" would be a good idea at first glance but it would make the game annoying.

- If you have say 3 bosses and 3 tanks pick one and each one does different things in increases the complexity of the raid, it becomes annoying, it's harder to design, etc.

- Last but not least tanking is an annoying role. It needs a personality that wants to help others and can't show-off numbers as much. People are naturally vain.

[precious]

U cannot go 1 tank to encounters that already are 2 or 3 healed. The amount of dmg the tank will get will require almost 1 dedicated healer.

U cannot solo or 2 heal encounters especially on mythic and especially on progress unless the model of how raids work today changes.

[Deleted]

U cannot go 1 tank to encounters that already are 2 or 3 healed. The amount of dmg the tank will get will require almost 1 dedicated healer.

It would be cool if they had a buf that made a tank have say 10 or 20 million HP. Then they would leave him get down on health during the fight. When the raid healing settles down, spam heal the tank!

Suggestion sent to Blizzard.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

- Last but not least tanking is an annoying role. It needs a personality that wants to help others and can't show-off numbers as much. People are naturally vain.

It has very little to do with Vanity. If it were an issue of Vanity there would be more tanks...as the tank is considered the most important person in the raid. DPS are a dime a Dozen and mostly forgettable.

[FuxieDK]

No way..

But it might actually be time to re-instate 3rd (and maybe 4th) tank..

[Deleted]

It has very little to do with Vanity. If it were an issue of Vanity there would be more tanks...as the tank is considered the most important person in the raid. DPS are a dime a Dozen and mostly forgettable.

That's what everyone thinks at first. But in reality that's a fallacy. A tank is giving more to the raid by never having the right to slack, never having the right to be off line, never having the right to dc, and it can't show off its numbers to others, it can't easily compete with others.

i.e. It's both hard work + it can't express its vanity that much since it's very limited on the numbers you can show off on meters and the like.

It's not a coincidence most are DPSes, fewer tanks, and healers are inbetween because they can both show off numbers and they can't slack.