Is it time to kill the second tank?

[Hyve]

I think they ought to make it 3 Tanks, and add more mechanics, not remove a tank.

[Mlz]

Funny, because I would actually like solotanking. I mean, I get it why it's never going to happen and objectively it's probably a pretty bad idea but from a selfish point of view I'd probably have a blast. It's mainly because I've always pugged with my tank and trying to communicate with the other tank has always been the tiresome part of the job for me. And I mean communicating as in usually trying to guess how many stacks can the tank go with (because they have no clue), does he know that his class can do this or that neat trick and even if they do are they willing to do that and so on and on. Loved SoO when solotanking was actually viable in normal (now HC) content. And yes, I know duo-tanking is completely different (and more enjoyable) in a guild environment, just talking from a pugging point of view

[Deleted]

Realistically, the only truly good multi-tank fights I noticed from my career as a hard-modes tank in WotLK were those that had both tanks on almost completely different roles. e.g. 1 tank gets the boss, the other tank get the adds. That was happening a lot in Ulduar, the best raid ever created, the culmination of the game, the best thing ever created for the game is that raid tbh.

[precious]

That's what everyone thinks at first. But in reality that's a fallacy. A tank is giving more to the raid by never having the right to slack, never having the right to be off line, never having the right to dc, and it can't show off its numbers to others, it can't easily compete with others.

i.e. It's both hard work + it can't express its vanity that much since it's very limited on the numbers you can show off on meters and the like.

It's not a coincidence most are DPSes, fewer tanks, and healers are inbetween because they can both show off numbers and they can't slack.

Have u played geared dk? 50k single target dps. More that 100k dps on aoe fights and easily 50k hps. I call that vanity.

Dont get me wrong its not a bad thing and its how dks work but today tanks are contributing as dps and healers at the same time. Well not all tanks but the ones that rely on their self heals and have strong dps abilities.

And today warcraft logs has rankings also for tanks if u want to show off.

[PosPosPos]

The reason there are less tank players is because people don't want the responsibility of tanking.

Demand for tanks is almost always greater than the supply. It is not harder to get a raid group as a Tank.

Untrue.

Tanks currently suffer from the disc syndrome because there are way more tanks than there are raid slots. Almost every single guild currently actively recruiting are searching for dps and healers(non-disc).

[Deleted]

Have u played geared dk? 50k single target dps. More that 100k dps on aoe fights and easily 50k hps. I call that vanity.

Dont get me wrong its not a bad thing and its how dks work but today tanks are contributing as dps and healers the same time some more than others.

And today warcraft logs has rankings also for tanks if u want to show off.

You can't really show off that much during a raid when you are one tank and the other guy is one. DPSes have tons of others to compete with. Healers also have several.

And the most important thing is something you didn't cover at all: That tanks have the highest responsibility to never slack, be off line, or dc during the raid.

It's the combination of those 2, that they must never slack in a fight and that they can't compete with others as much that doesn't satisfy vanity.

[dixincide]

In your model what would be discouraging bringing two tanks? In the current model. Tanks do alright damage and having a backup could be the difference between a wipe being caused by a poor lag spike or not.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

That's what everyone thinks at first. But in reality that's a fallacy. A tank is giving more to the raid by never having the right to slack, never having the right to be off line, never having the right to dc, and it can't show off its numbers to others, it can't easily compete with others.

That's a matter of responsibility...not vanity. People don't want to play tanks because it's more responsibility.

The reason DPS show off numbers is because that's the only way they can feel personally important to the raid. That's not vanity. That's insecurity.

[Deleted]

That's a matter of responsibility...not vanity. People don't want to play tanks because it's more responsibility.

But it is related! Let me make it simple with a phrase: "Bastards, I have to do all this work, never have to slack, never be able to dc, and look at them, fighting over the DPS meter, and I'm here, just by myself and one other tank, not entering the fight of the numbers as much, while we must never slack, bastards".

I've mained a tank for more than a whole expansion and I'm vain.

I know how it works.

[xalenthas]

Always thought the raid sizes should more reflect the dungeon group ratios. Personally I felt long ago dungeons should have become 6-person affairs (1xTank, 1xHealer, 4xDD) and then (pre-flex, fixed size) raids become simple multipliers, so 12 man (2xTank, 2,Healer, 8xDD) and 24 man doubling those values again.

Always seemed to me this would alleviate some of the queue times for DD's whilst increasing the number of spots available too tanks.

[PuppetShowJustice]

It would be difficult to design around a single tank.

If you have two tanks and one dies what happens? The offtank usually pops some CDs and does his best to get the situation under control while the other tank gets rezzed / healed / rebuffed.

Now play that scenario in your head with one tank. It's one thing for a DPS to tank 5 man trash for a handful of seconds, even if CMs. Heck, even pets can do it. But in a raid that isn't going to hold up well. You are either going to have a mess or you're going to have people there ready and able to pick the boss up in the event the primary tank dies...in which case you're basically bringing a secondary tank anyways.

[Zelendria]

The reason there are less tank players is because people don't want the responsibility of tanking.

Demand for tanks is almost always greater than the supply. It is not harder to get a raid group as a Tank.

This really.
As a healer you can be kind of carried, or the DPS can be particularly good at avoiding bad, and makes life easier
DPS can just be carried even on hard fights by the better players. Miss a CD meh
Tanks fail they die, and the raid dies shortly afterwards.

A lot of people don't want to be that guy that wiped the raid with complete transparency.
Also PUGs can be pretty damn toxic to a tank not doing the perfect pull

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

But it is related! Let me make it simple with a phrase: "Bastards, I have to do all this work, never have to slack, never be able to dc, and look at them, fighting over the DPS meter, and I'm here, just by myself and one other tank, not entering the fight of the numbers as much, while we must never slack, bastards".

I've mained a tank for more than a whole expansion and I'm vain.

I know how it works.

So because you are vain...Everyone else is too? That's some great projecting.

Never getting to slack = responsibility.
Tanks don't need to brag about doing well. When a tank does well...the raid knows.

[Gilian]

I don't think every boss should require 2 tanks and the tank swap mechanic is overused...I'd hate to see them switch to a single tank system for every fight.

This.

I would even go a little further and would like to see some bosses that require 1 tank, some that require an offtank and the occassional boss where you need 3 or 4 like we used to have in the past. Having multiple tanks shouldn't be a big problem anymore these days with dual specs and how easy it is to switch. You could have a main tank, a dedicated offtank and two dps with tank offspecs who can tank decently. This way there is way more diversity in boss fights.
But I guess the big problem with this is that it's not convenient enough for F&F guilds or pugs .

[Tradu]

If anything they should make it 3 tanks with 4 on some fights(rather than 2 with 3 on some). Sure, "swap on debuff" is boring as hell, but fights that actually have a reason to bring that number of tanks would be fine.

[Deleted]

So because you are vain...Everyone else is too?

All humans are vain. It's the human condition. Only hypocrites claim they are Jesus Christ.


Do you think it's a coincidence most people like to fight over DPS meters instead of tank?


Or that healers are more than tanks since they get to show off more on meters?

[Zelendria]

It's because there are 14 players who on the face of it are judged on their DPS. It's competitive by nature.
A tank did his job if he didn't die, and used mitigation at the right time, and it's a shared effort with your co tank.

If there was 15 tanks and it was about who can take the aggro most it would just as competitive as current DPS wars are.

[precious]

In a raid every role is connected to others. U cannot have god mode tanks, average dps and terrible healers and vice versa and expect to go far.

Dps fight over dps meters cause the purpose is to finish the encounter as fast as u can. Thats the reason that most fights are terribly less healed than intented.

Blizzard almost always failed to create a perfect balance around enounters and set up. Players will always find a way around it either to solo heal an encounter for example or 3-4 tank another negating some mechanics or making it way easier than intented.

Tanks are the key role for an encounter to succeed or fail. Prime example BH mythic and the tanking of sieges. It wasnt ment for the fight to be approached like this but in the end was viable. A tank that doesnt know to play well and communicate with his healers to survive 300-400k hits while the dps are struggling to bring down sieges, adds, boss to keep the tank alive cause at some point u will run out of cds.

Its all connected. And in the end when the boss is dead everyone knows that the tank was 50% responsible for the kill and no need for meters to know for the raid that u did a good job.

Now if u try to apply the above scenario to 1 tank mechanics,raids whatever, i dont think its easy enough to change raids to involve around it.

[Lucetia]

Hell no, I want them to make encounters require MORE tanks, not less.
I'd like if a raid comp required 4 tanks so that people who want to tank can actually play the role and that we have more tanks around.

I wouldn't mind it if there was more need for tanks. I love tanking on my paladin, but this expansion I pretty much shelved prot and went Ret (for solo stuff) and Holy (been asked for more than prot). Then again all I've had time for lately is LFR and an occasional pug. Right now there just doesn't seem to be a lot of need for tanks compared to dps / healers.

[Deleted]

It's because there are 14 players who on the face of it are judged on their DPS. It's competitive by nature.
A tank did his job if he didn't die, and used mitigation at the right time, and it's a shared effort with your co tank.

If there was 15 tanks and it was about who can take the aggro most it would just as competitive as current DPS wars are.

Exactly...