The notion that we can change the course of our lives is absolutely wrong.

[Gheld]

Yes, my definition of free will is "autonomy".

Not the western theological version.

I think in the next few decades as we start getting into creepy technological transhumanism shit cognitive autonomy will become testable... Then we'll have our answer...

[Deleted]

How can you say Quantum Mechanics isn't deterministic when its indeterminacy is perfectly determined by theory?


In any case it's an illusion you have choice since you are by definition a biological machine.

We could discuss the secondary issue of quantum randomness but it doesn't change much.

[Gheld]

How can you say Quantum Mechanics isn't deterministic when its indeterminacy is perfectly determined by theory?


In any case it's an illusion you have choice since you are by definition a biological machine.

We could discuss the secondary issue of quantum randomness but it doesn't change much.

Sorry. Even if "The machine" is preprogrammed to act out it's destiny when the energy is turned on... What's to say the energy from which it operates is predetermined?

Sooner or later when you boil things down there's certain unknowns...

and somebody saying "THERE'S NO FREE WILL BECAUSE SCIENCE AND YOU CAN'T PROVE ME WRONG" becomes the same kind of nonsensical drivel as somebody saying "THERE'S SOME INVISIBLE MAN WHO LIVES ON A CLOUD AND KEEPS TALLY OF HOW OFTEN EVERYONE MASTURBATES AND YOU CAN'T PROVE ME WRONG."

(In fact unfalsifiability is what makes something scientifically invalid to begin with)

[Deleted]

Sorry. Even if "The machine" is preprogrammed to act out it's destiny when the energy is turned on... What's to say the energy from which it operates is predetermined?

Sooner or later when you boil things down there's certain unknowns...

and somebody saying "THERE'S NO FREE WILL BECAUSE SCIENCE AND YOU CAN'T PROVE ME WRONG" becomes the same kind of nonsensical drivel as somebody saying "THERE'S SOME INVISIBLE MAN WHO LIVES ON A CLOUD AND KEEPS TALLY OF HOW OFTEN EVERYONE MASTURBATES AND YOU CAN'T PROVE ME WRONG."

(In fact unfalsifiability is what makes something scientifically invalid to begin with)

Give me a break. You have to prove why it's not just a biological machine perfectly depended on the determinancy of the universe or the limited indeterminancy described by quantum mechanics (and that quantum mechanical effect doesn't really change much anyway). We have ample evidence that we are constructed of a puzzle made of matter only, and no evidence that there is anything more so that this is a machine no more than a computer (when it gets to the subject of choice) is pretty much the default, and anything more would need evidence, because we have plenty of evidence that it's a deterministic machine and no evidence that it's anything more.

[breadisfunny]

I had a choice. To continue living in misery, or improve my life. I took the necessary steps to change my path in life to a more desirable one. There was little in the way of chance. I investigated my avenues or opportunity, and I went after them. The only "chance" was whether or not I could get a loan, which I was granted since I had ok credit.

but yet if that person had decided to decline you that would prove that you can't really change the course of your life. only those in positions of power can truly change the course of your life.

[Cassidin]

Our life, the universe, is by definition deterministic. Even if we take Quantum Mechanical effects into account, even those express randomness in a deterministic fashion! Therefore our life is by definition, unequivocally and with a mathematical certainty a result of luck, randomness, chance.

We probably should get rid of things like schools then because if people are destined to do great things, or flip burgers, they will do so regardless.

[Deleted]

We probably should get rid of things like schools then because if people are destined to do great things, or flip burgers, they will do so regardless.

But we won't let you get rid of schools. We are deterministic biological machines that want schools. So what you say is a non-starter, I did not say we are Nihilists, I do not say we are zero-ists, I said we are deterministic biological machines with no real choice.


He have no choice but to stop you getting rid of schools in that sense.

See, it works both ways.

[Deleted]

Your theory would only be true OP if we were some imobile unthinking objects drifting around. We're not.
Yes, due to certain factors our choices are sometimes limited. But there are choices, even if there appears to be only one option, we still have the option of taking it or not.

[Deleted]

Schrodinger cat experiment prove s it if you are in the experiment you re outcome is dependent on the atom not decaying or decaying dosen t matter what you want you re outcome becomes entangled with the outcome of the atom

[Revi]

I think it's more correct to say that even if quantum mechanics are not deterministic, they are not in our control, so even if we're guided by them it'd not give us any more free will or autonomy.

But I don't think any such "realization" or belief would actually change anything. If it is deterministic, making the decision to improve your life might not be "yours" but it will still improve your life. Even if everything is predestined, you don't know what is meant to happen and by definition can not alter your behavior based on it.

Even the action of propagating the idea that we can change our lives would be the result of previous events, and could in itself be the action that causes, for example, someone to change their life. So even if everything is cause and effect, it would still be right.

[Deleted]

All you can do is trust your senses.

[Independent voter]

All you can do is trust your senses.

Well, what if you're a virtual character in a futurist simulation? Like say a virtual character in Sim City, but a thousand years from now.

If that were the case everything you saw, touched smelled taste would all be provided by the program and fake. You couldn't trust any information your senses provided.

[Deleted]

Well, what if you're a virtual character in a futurist simulation? Like say a virtual character in Sim City, but a thousand years from now.

If that were the case everything you saw, touched smelled taste would all be provided by the program and fake. You couldn't trust any information your senses provided.

It wouldn't matter. For me and everyone else it would be reality and i think we can all agree that the world we inhabit is internally consistent and that we can all agree that our senses is telling us the same things. Hot is hot and cold is cold and this doesn't change over time. Even if it's all is some kind of hyper advanced simulation we still "live" in the sense that we are conscious and inhabit some kind of physical universe.

Lets say tomorrow scientists provide irrefutable proof that we are in a computer simulation, would that really change anything? Would you still not cling to this life you have been given? I don't think too many people would be in favor or trying to contact the "creators" and have them pull the plug on the whole thing.

[Independent voter]

It wouldn't matter. For me and everyone else it would be reality and i think we can all agree that the world we inhabit is internally consistent and that we can all agree that our senses is telling us the same things. Hot is hot and cold is cold and this doesn't change over time. Even if it's all is some kind of hyper advanced simulation we still "live" in the sense that we are conscious and inhabit some kind of physical universe.

Lets say tomorrow scientists provide irrefutable proof that we are in a computer simulation, would that really change anything? Would you still not cling to this life you have been given? I don't think too many people would be in favor or trying to contact the "creators" and have them pull the plug on the whole thing.

What if tomorrow the owner of the simulation changed the acceleration of gravity slider from 9.8m/s to 10.2m/s? Or he doubles the speed of light?

[IntellectuallyChallenged]

I have changed the course of my life on a couple of occasions:

1) Moved to Oklahoma from California. Culture change. Had I stayed in California, my life would definitely have been different.
2) Stopped doing drugs and other illegal activities that would definitely have landed me in prison had I not stopped.
3) Broke up with a girlfriend that was burdening my life. Things got much better and I was much happier than when I was with her.

That's just a couple of examples of how life can change courses at will.

[Dhrizzle]

It seems the OP has taken some of the thoughts behind the unanswered question "does freewill actually exist?" and mistranslated them as "logik and reesun that proves freewill definitely doesn't exist."

[Annu]

How can you say Quantum Mechanics isn't deterministic when its indeterminacy is perfectly determined by theory?

This perfectly determined theory unfortunately says that it is stochastic. Stochastic is per definition non-deterministic.

Knowing that a random number can be between 1 and 100 does not make it deterministic. It's still stochastic, you just know it's boundaries.

We know just a small part of how the human brain is working, but it seems that the human imagination is making strong use of finding patterns in noise. This noise is mostly based on quantum mechanics effects, which is so far considered to be of random source.

Remember that randomness means that two entirely similar systems can give different results. In other words: If you make a perfect clone of this universe, the outcome may be different. That's at least what our knowledge of quantum mechanics says. Maybe in 100 years we know more, but so far this is the state of our knowledge.

So far for our imagination. How our mind is making decisions on a physics level and why we have a mind at all, is still unknown. There is no way to tell if it is deterministic, yet. Only if you have the answer to this, you are able to tell if human decisions are predefined by the actual state of the universe. But if you have the answer to this, you are most likely also able to tell the meaning of life.

In other words: Science knows just a fraction of the universe.

PS: To mess it up even more: Can you tell if the world really exists? In the end, all we have is the input our brain gets from the nervous system. It could be all fake!!!

[Deleted]

I think most people have the illusion of true choice because they don't understand something very basic. We are nothing more than a biological machine made of matter. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that we are anything more and there is overwhelming evidence that we are constituted of matter.

Think of it this way. A computer has the choice to pick answer A or answer B based on input. Well, it had a choice, but it's still a machine that had software and hardware to guide it.

Well, we have software and hardware too, and even if you add some randomness there, it still doesn't make the machine any less of a machine.

[Deleted]

people who didn t get super sick at one time beliave that they have choice

[Khaza-R]

Seems like a pointless question. Does the universe have true stochasticity, or deterministic chaos? Will you ever truly know?