Can you have 2 discs in a raid?

[Deleted]

The Archimonde situation is an interesting one. Soaking the doomfire is well suited to healing priests thanks to the constant 30% damage reduction from focused will and the extra 10% from glyph of fade, however I'd have to argue that being disc and holy would (or should) work out better than double disc. As disc you can keep yourself alive through doomfire, no issues there, you each look after yourself and it's easy life. Outside of the soaking however you meet the usual compromise of nerfing each other. Indeed my example of shielding shackles on mythic when overlapping with chaos, they're priority targets and while you could have CoW con them, you're still doing less than double what a solo disc priest can do. A holy priest ALSO has 30% focused will and glyph of fade and binding heal and lightwell is incredible strong at healing doomfire.
As a disc priest soaking doomfire and looking after themselves you're forced to either flash heal or CoW yourself or blow CDs to survive bad luck (bad luck being if you take a shadowblast thingy or get dogs on you), and you can only PWS yourself. If one of you went holy then you could PWS BOTH players, which increases efficiency for the disc priest and the holy priest can use binding heal with rolling renews in serenity chakra, also more efficient, not to mention PoM bouncing between soakers can be extremely strong and lightwell as a backup (click it!) is also very very strong. I don't think double disc is required to soak doomfire and indeed I believe that if organized correctly (so PoM can bounce), a disc and holy would actually be the safer option for soaking.
The next point in the fight where your healing comp would actually matter would be mark of the legion and infernals landing. As double disc you could certainly be sure to pre-shield the whole raid, a legitimately valuable tactic. However if all marks are equally soaked then nobody is really in danger of being 1shot anyway, and if you have 1 mark being undersoaked (say only 2 people soaking) then again only 1 disc priest will be able to shield them and then you have less throughput to top them back up for the infernals landing afterwards.
In a scenario where you have 2 healing priests regardless then I'd expect to see a situation such as; 2 disc priests doing 70k hps, wasting mana on inefficient healing (flash heals) or wasting hps on less effective spells (casting a CoW on a target that the other priest put PWS on). If it was one disc and one holy priest I'd expect the disc priest to be doing 90k hps and the holy priest to be doing AT LEAST 70k hps, obviously these aren't numbers taken from real-world, just my expectations for comparison. And yes, the usual caveat that if you're healing up all the damage anyway then it's really not going to matter; this whole topic comes to a close if you don't actually need to improve your raid healing.


I do believe that double disc is viable (and proven to be viable) but I also believe that it's never optimal even when forced to have 2 healing priests. Obviously if you could just drop one and bring another class entirely that should be even better (holy paladins soaking doomfire is really good too!)

[PosPosPos]

-doomfire-

It's really straightforward for other healer specs(that aren't Holy Pally/Priest) as well, as long as you have at least the normal leech trinket(or higher).

Holy Priest with leech trinket + Disc and undoubtedly going to be better than a double Disc setup in any case.

[Rfx]

Double disc has to be the most cancerous thing you could ever subject yourself to doing.

As for the whole Archimonde/doomfire ordeal. Holy is a perfectly fine spec

[sylenna]

Yeah, just use mirroring or striping.

/drumroll

thank god. i feared i was the only one with that thought coming here.

[Deleted]

I find it very funny when people comment on fights they have never done or classes/specs that they have never played, and then they assume something is better just because they do. No logic or reasonable explanation. And because you clearly do not trust my judgment, let's look at the facts that we have. Let's look at the players we all look up to and see what they did? Out of the few guilds in top 100 that had 2 priests in their roaster, only one choose to play Holy+Disc on Archimonde Mythic (and I won't even comment on their HPS or effectiveness) - the rest including the best Holy priests in the world went Disc or simply were benched.

I see that as a fact of the matter that Holy+Disc is NOT better HPS or anything wise in comparison to double disc on that fight.
Sure you can disagree all you want that Holy+Disc on Archimonde M is a better option, but for all it matters, you can make the effort to go and research a tiny bit before you comment, what did Jhazrun play on Archimonde M? Was Nihilium taking their Holy Priest for the kill? Do we pay attention at the Holy priest in the only top 20 kill that are behind the DK tank HPS wise and had to pretty much 5 heal a fight that the VAST majority 4 healed (thats hard to achieve - wink wink i wonder why they went 5 heals). We can go on and on up until top 100, but the least you could do is check top 20 if you are that lazy, but that would not matter because you would still not understand. Your lack of experience and knowledge about the class and these specs is unreal.

Again, if you are used to play with 2 priests that are completely incapable of executing their classes when there is someone interfering in their business - that is a case of low skills players and not a case of certain specs not being a good combo if you have a double .

And to sum up - I am far from the though that some of us are more skilled or better tacticians than those examples I gave. I really doubt that the people making up setups in the top 20 are less experienced than a keyboard warrior. And last but not least, I doubt you could ever convince any of them that it was a bad decision that they sat their Holy priest for an alt with 710 item level or that they asked them to play double disc. But sure, you can go on and on about this as much as you want. For all I care I am done with my progress and already successfully killed Archimonde a dozen of times with double disc - so really, please for the love of god, RESEARCH before you open your mouth and voice your opinion - it looks pathetic.

The optimal solution for Archimonde Mythic having 2 priest healers in your roaster is - Sit your Holy/Make him or her play Disc and go double Disc/go with 4 healers and only 1 priest. Weather you like it or not that is the results of the research we have done, that is the case - these are the 3 options anyone with brains in their head used - hence why these play in the top and some watch from the bottom.

So yes, UNDOUBTEDLY they are not all retards in the top guilds, and UNDOUBTEDLY they know what they are on about going double disc, sitting their Holy or taking an alt instead.

UNDOUBTEDLY the problem is in your logic and your way of thinking.

[Deleted]

I find it very funny when people comment on fights they have never done or classes/specs that they have never played, and then they assume something is better just because they do. No logic or reasonable explanation. And because you clearly do not trust my judgment, let's look at the facts that we have. Let's look at the players we all look up to and see what they did? Out of the few guilds in top 100 that had 2 priests in their roaster, only one choose to play Holy+Disc on Archimonde Mythic (and I won't even comment on their HPS or effectiveness) - the rest including the best Holy priests in the world went Disc or simply were benched.

I see that as a fact of the matter that Holy+Disc is NOT better HPS or anything wise in comparison to double disc on that fight.
Sure you can disagree all you want that Holy+Disc on Archimonde M is a better option, but for all it matters, you can make the effort to go and research a tiny bit before you comment, what did Jhazrun play on Archimonde M? Was Nihilium taking their Holy Priest for the kill? Do we pay attention at the Holy priest in the only top 20 kill that are behind the DK tank HPS wise and had to pretty much 5 heal a fight that the VAST majority 4 healed (thats hard to achieve - wink wink i wonder why they went 5 heals). We can go on and on up until top 100, but the least you could do is check top 20 if you are that lazy, but that would not matter because you would still not understand. Your lack of experience and knowledge about the class and these specs is unreal.

Again, if you are used to play with 2 priests that are completely incapable of executing their classes when there is someone interfering in their business - that is a case of low skills players and not a case of certain specs not being a good combo if you have a double .

And to sum up - I am far from the though that some of us are more skilled or better tacticians than those examples I gave. I really doubt that the people making up setups in the top 20 are less experienced than a keyboard warrior. And last but not least, I doubt you could ever convince any of them that it was a bad decision that they sat their Holy priest for an alt with 710 item level or that they asked them to play double disc. But sure, you can go on and on about this as much as you want. For all I care I am done with my progress and already successfully killed Archimonde a dozen of times with double disc - so really, please for the love of god, RESEARCH before you open your mouth and voice your opinion - it looks pathetic.

The optimal solution for Archimonde Mythic having 2 priest healers in your roaster is - Sit your Holy/Make him or her play Disc and go double Disc/go with 4 healers and only 1 priest. Weather you like it or not that is the results of the research we have done, that is the case - these are the 3 options anyone with brains in their head used - hence why these play in the top and some watch from the bottom.

Feels like this is aimed at me, unsure if it actually is. But just to clarify, I have killed Archimonde, as a priest, as a healer. I did go disc but I was also the only priest healer, I did consider holy for some of progress.

You mention 'facts' about the top100, I found this quite curious tbh so I did go and trawl through all of the first kills on wowprogress to see their healing setups. A few of these may of course be wrong if they logged out in a different spec but I think the error would be small and it would work both ways.
So here's what I found;
11 guilds of the top100 used 2 healing priests for their first Archimonde kill
Of those, Entropy, WHATEVER WERE AWESOME, Фьюжн, Honestly, Play Out, Энерджайзер and Incarnate used one disc priest and one holy priest (that's 7 guilds btw, not 1 as you say).
The remaining 4 guilds used 2 disc priests; Allstars, Strawberry Puppy Kisses, 凌云 and Innominatum used double disc priests. Not that it really matters but the guilds using double disc priests also popped up towards the end of my search through the top100 which would suggest it's not actually skill that prevents people playing double disc priest, if it was skill then I'd expect to see the top guilds playing double disc with the lower guilds going disc holy.


Now, I'm not trying to argue that benching the holy priest is the better option. I believe that in many cases being able to bring a a disc priest and any other non-priest healer is probably more beneficial to your raid than running double priest healer of any spec (assuming equal skill ofc), but I maintain that disc holy is the stronger setup for Archimonde than double disc for the reasons I mention in my previous posts.

You berate me (or whoever you aim the post at) for not researching before posting, and maybe if I looked deeper into their kill vids etc I might be corrected and wowprogress got the specs wrong but I still think you're mistaken on the facts in this instance.

I think if these numbers show anything then it's that most of the top100 guilds are opting to bring only 1 healing priest and the ones that choose to bring 2 prove that either setup can work. In regards to whether you can have 2 disc priests in the raid, yes absolutely you can, but only 4 of the top100 doing so for the hardest boss shows that despite it being possible it's probably not the most efficient or otherwise just frustrating to the priests.
An interesting side note; I think there were more kills with 2 priest healers than no disc priest at all

[Rfx]

@Healprincess and @Redsparrowe (to a lesser degree, agreeing w/)

Ultimately, post nerf achimonde (which was nerfs before ANY guild had killed it) removed any reason to bring any healer classes (maybe outside of holy paladin for tanks). The healer requirement for archimonde is pretty insignificant. At least, by the time we had got to it - world 20 kill - I can say with 100% confidence that it would not matter what 4 healers you took to that fight outside of who soaked/healed doomfire soakers. Which, honestly, any healer CAN do.

This was our first kill (8th of Aug)
http://puu.sh/kUgU1/5cd8e7eb2f.png

Breakdown per phase
1: http://puu.sh/kUh26/be637dd17d.png
2: http://puu.sh/kUh38/6e92724b85.png
3: http://puu.sh/kUh4D/72485511e2.png

Some quick facts of our kill
- Both me (Rqt) and the Disc priest were responsible for soaking two of the three doomfire piles whilst our our tanks rotated between the third pile.
- I was the only healer using the leech trinket.
- All healers did damage, especially in p3
- I raid led p3 archimonde (and final phase mannoroth) which whether people want to believe or not, certainly affected my individual play in the final phase.

Now, in terms of healer damage I believe holy priest easily suffers the most. Disc obviously gains from dealing damage (albeit very, very minimally and still a loss over other spells, but still a hps gain from dealing damage) and resto shaman only has to keep lava burst(s) on cooldown because it does an unfair amount of damage. Holy Paladin is probably as bad as holy priest except offensive shocks still generate HP. Holy priest no only has 0 benefit from dealing damage, damage being small - even with red chakra - but we also fall behind because WoM is a large factor of the holy playstyle and while you're spamming smite you're generating 0 PoM/WoM.

I cannot offer any maths on whether I would get more HPS for running to narnia to pick up fire/heal myself during p2 or if I healed a soaker/the raid. I would wager that it is a HPS loss to do doomfire over being able to heal the entire raid + a soaker - maybe even two.

Obviously me using the leech trinket doesn't mean I am responsible for 100% of healing from Leech, but it would be a large amount of it. Leech did 10.39mil healing over the fight with a large majority of that being from my trinket.

With that in mind I would consider not only mine but our Discs healing to be totally acceptable for our first kill. There was NEVER a point in the entirety of our 400 Archimonde wipes where a lack of healing resulted in us wiping. It simply didn't happen.

Point is, the difference between killing this boss or not, is never going to be about whether you take two disc priests, one of each, or have to sit the holy priest. Especially now, with all the resets worth of gear and ring ilvl there is no excuse to not being able to bring any healing roster to this fight. Especially when guilds are now starting to 3 heal it.

[PosPosPos]

-snip-

Well, I believe your modus operandi has been exposed to all since the last few posts anyway - linking percentiles/progression counter as the end-all-be-all and cherrypicking a few anecdotes to suit your narrative.

You talk about "doing research" on the statistics in the top 100, yet on closer inspection, it is merely reflective of your woeful disregard of the actual numbers. You talk about how your logic is infallible and your way of thinking perfect and flawless - yet you provide no intrinsic or extrinsic evidence whatsoever to support those bold claims, save for a misappropriating of the top 100 first kill compositions and waving your 90 percentiles on deep farm around.

So anyway, since less top 100 guilds used double disc to holy/disc, what are you going to say next? That the guilds using Holy/Disc over Disc/Disc are "pathetic", "no logic or reasonable explanation" and have a serious "lack of experience and knowledge about the class and these specs"? Or are you going to continue with your obstinate stance that double disc is the best in face of so much counter-evidence even though your own sample size is smaller than the other schools of thought to begin with?

Feels like this is aimed at me, unsure if it actually is.

It was quite obviously aimed at me, because *someone* obviously went to town on armory to attack my lack of progression.(or so it seems)

[Deleted]

Keep out the nonconstructive posts just aimed at other users, this is in danger of becoming a flaming match without furthering the original topic.

[Djriff]

So IRT the original topic. How viable do you feel 2 discs, hpally, and a resto shaman are for xhul vs 1 disc, 1 hpriest, hpally, and a resto shaman? We were running the 3 tank strat and I felt it would be more beneficial to run a holy priest rather than a second disc priest with CoW especially towards the end of the fight when EoL could really shine. When I played the fight as disc (just 1 of us) it was actually a challenge as I was running CoW for soaking black holes, keeping up tanks, and still having to PW: S spam.

[Deleted]

Double disc on Xhul is pretty strong as u can shield the whole raid for the explosions on 20%. But i would say wichever you are more comfortable with. I tried double disc but it didnt work out as the disc i was with just wouldnt follow assignments and work together (hes like a social and we lacked 2 core healers).

We "agreed" we would both focus tanks and i would help out on raid when shaman needed help on raid damage and i would also CoW our black hole soakers. Problem was that he kept going off tanks when 2 adds were up, wich is something you REALLY cant do.

Tho we also 3 healed (2x disc and shaman), the week after we went disc, pala, shaman and i felt alot better but then again i didnt reach 20%, but thats also easily covered with chaining heal cds. Our wipes on second week wasnt due to tank deaths or raid damage so.

[Deleted]

So IRT the original topic. How viable do you feel 2 discs, hpally, and a resto shaman are for xhul vs 1 disc, 1 hpriest, hpally, and a resto shaman? We were running the 3 tank strat and I felt it would be more beneficial to run a holy priest rather than a second disc priest with CoW especially towards the end of the fight when EoL could really shine. When I played the fight as disc (just 1 of us) it was actually a challenge as I was running CoW for soaking black holes, keeping up tanks, and still having to PW: S spam.

Hmm, couldn't you 3 heal it with disc pally and resto shaman? It's widely a 3 healed fight and we actually found it easier to 3 heal than 4 heal during progress. Early progress it felt like there was a lot of damage, but after learning the fight there's really nothing to heal up until p3 other than tanks and some very light damage. Killing stuff faster makes a big difference. If you're going to 4 heal though then double disc is probably not awful. For the reasons I just mentioned bringing an extra throughput healer probably won't help much since there's little for them to do, getting some extra CoW on the only targets taking damage could help, and potentially getting double CoW on blackhole soakers could make it easier for you /shrug.

Guardian spirit works on soaking blackholes though so that might be a consideration.

[Djriff]

Well originally we were 3 healing it with no problem, but when they hit 20% (I wasn't there for the 1st and 2nd kill due to RL stuff) they ran into healing problems in the last phase. Basically they ran 1 disc, 1 hpal, 1 resto druid, 1 resto sham and did fine. The resto sham told me he basically just DPS'd 80% of the fight and healed his ass off in the last part. I'm still not sure if Double Disc would be better than holy in that situation though.

GS actually works for something? Amazing.

[Deleted]

If you got trouble at 20% double disc like i mentioned will work wonder (shield whole raid, 2x barrier) but even with 3 heals you shouldnt have problems if u chain cds (also non healer cds). The only important thing for double disc is that u are able to work together and keep to your assignments, else it wont work out.