Lets Talk About Bernie Sanders beloved Denmark, Shall We?

[Exception]

The welfare trap is a lot nicer than the streets, or working two jobs just to pay rent. Even the poor and unemployed deserve vacation.

I'd rather get out of poverty than live under a welfare trap tbh. And there is thing thing called charity, ever heard of it?

[Release]

Taxation in itself is ethically wrong, as it is stealing. If I some day steal 1/3 of your money and everyone elses in the neighborhood, then buy clothes with it and give them to the people, I bet you'd still be pissed. Taxation also hinders economic growth, as it is a punishment for success; higher tax rates will reduce the motivation of people to work hard. On the private sector, as there is competition, these services could be provided much more cheaply, efficiently, and with a better quality.

So many holes in this argument you could drive through it. I seriously suggest you go and do some actual research instead of deciding you feel something is "ethically wrong" then go and spout your drivel to the world.

[Ol Scratch]

What? If it's funded by taxes, then it isn't free

Did you even read what Zogarth said?

People like you make it embarrassing to be an American, which wasn't by choice. (And good luck trying to change that if you have any measurable amount of wealth, too. We even tax you severely just in order to say that you're no longer an American. Goooo land of the free!)

[Exception]

Is it not more wrong to allow your fellow man to go sick without proper treatment? Or not give everyone the same chance despite who their parents are/how many money they got? Or to help those in need who does not have a home/job?

All of these services can be provided by private companies, which would have an incentive to help the poor since their business models depended on that. And people will always be unequal.. some people are born rich, some people are born with brown hair, some people are born ugly, some people are born women... the only way to assure total equality would be through horrible totalitarian means.

[Deleted]

What people don't realize when talking about the so called Nordic Model is that this system was built on a free-market economy, and that despite having a huge welfare states these countries still do have some of the freest economies in the world. This is decomposing though, as the welfare policies have made the people in Nordic countries grow more lazy over time, I remember seeing a survey where only ~ 0.5-1% of Norwegian employees think Norwegian youngsters have a good work ethic. And this work ethic in their culture plus their free-market approach is what made them prosper, not the welfare state. If you look at Nordic immigrants in the US, there is little to no poverty among them either, plus they have a better living standard than people in their native/ancestral homeland.

The cash benefits part of the Welfare system is definitely not something we Scandinavians should export to the rest of the world - it is a quagmire, especially for young people who are tempted by benefits that are higher if you are unemployed than if you study. There are a lot of initiatives under way, however. Reduction of services to young people and generally higher demands on job applications and job training for unemployed young people.

The taxation on cars is not something im worried about though. Denmark is a small country with effective public transportation and everybody who puts in a effort can afford a car. Im also interested to see where we are heading w automated vehicles (Google software). I think it will trigger a different transport culture .

[luc54]

All of these services can be provided by private companies, which would have an incentive to help the poor since their business models depended on that. And people will always be unequal.. some people are born rich, some people are born with brown hair, some people are born ugly, some people are born women... the only way to assure total equality would be through horrible totalitarian means.

What incentive do private companies have for the poor? They are for profit ffs. Do you seriously believe that public health care is worse than private health care? And do you honestly believe they are even mutually exclusive. For example we have both public and private health care in Finland anyway. You can choose whatever you want, but at least you won't go bankrupt for getting into accident or getting a cancer or so. But I guess it's very ethical for companies you squeeze every little penny out of those who are less fortunate.

[Zogarth]

All of these services can be provided by private companies, which would have an incentive to help the poor since their business models depended on that. And people will always be unequal.. some people are born rich, some people are born with brown hair, some people are born ugly, some people are born women... the only way to assure total equality would be through horrible totalitarian means.

It is not making them equal, but equal opportunity. Also, private companies do still exist (like private hospitals) in Denmark, and they are used by the more wealthy part of the population. Nothing wrong with that either.

Also, why do you think public companies have no incentive to perform? The organizers, financial and management accountants both have more than enough internal motivation to do their job properly.

[JohnBrown1917]

Taxation in itself is ethically wrong, as it is stealing. If I some day steal 1/3 of your money and everyone elses in the neighborhood, then buy clothes with it and give them to the people, I bet you'd still be pissed. Taxation also hinders economic growth, as it is a punishment for success; higher tax rates will reduce the motivation of people to work hard. On the private sector, as there is competition, these services could be provided much more cheaply, efficiently, and with a better quality.

So how exactly are governments/the military/the police/infrastructure supposed to work?

[Release]

Private businesses have an incentive to do whatever helps their bottom line. If that means helping the poor, they will help the poor. If that means burning the poor alive, they will do that too.

Not to mention the sort of destruction to the environment we would see with his unregulated capitalist mecca. I mean there's no precedents for that in history is there as we had this sort of system in the Victorian age and absolutely no damage was done.

[Kaykay]

All of these services can be provided by private companies, which would have an incentive to help the poor since their business models depended on that. And people will always be unequal.. some people are born rich, some people are born with brown hair, some people are born ugly, some people are born women... the only way to assure total equality would be through horrible totalitarian means.

Not alot of incentive for a business to take in non-paying clients? unless you intend to indebt them, which is ethically suspect, when you know they wont be able to pay you back in the foreseeable future.

Or you have volunteer docs and vets who help for free. You stand in long ques, get a diagnosis but cant afford the medicine.

[unbound]

Sigh. I know this will be difficult for conservatives, but Bernie didn't say we should become Denmark (I know nuance is tough for y'all). He said we should “learn from what they have accomplished for their working people.”

What is with conservatives and their refusal to look at alternatives? What is wrong with making the US even better? Why can't we look at ways to make (as one example) our healthcare system #1 in the world instead of being behind the UK, Switzerland, Australia, Netherlands, Germany, Norway, New Zealand, France, and Canada overall?

The US used to be about the American dream...which is to say, those who work hard do better (equal opportunity). Sadly, the American dream is a larger reality in Finland, Norway, and Denmark than it is in the US anymore. Only 8% of Americans born in the lower 5th of income will move up to the top 5th. In Finland and many other European countries, that figure is 14%. The US is #8 in that regard. We had it, and we lost it. And conservatives, rather than facing reality and getting hungry to get it back, are sitting back making excuses for the rich who are rigging the government to keep all the wealth for themselves.

[Deleted]

The middle class pays for it

You really think it's as simple as that?

Really? Holy shit.

This forum is a lost cause.

[Zogarth]

What incentive do private companies have for the poor? They are for profit ffs.

We should be afraid to make blanket statements. Organizations are way more than simple financial gain. The whole management part which is nicely encapsulated by CSR (corporate social responsibility) theory.

[JohnBrown1917]

All of these services can be provided by private companies, which would have an incentive to help the poor since their business models depended on that. And people will always be unequal.. some people are born rich, some people are born with brown hair, some people are born ugly, some people are born women... the only way to assure total equality would be through horrible totalitarian means.

In the US, the poor can not afford health care.

[Dezerte]

This could be provided much more efficiently and ethically through the private sector.

Efficient, perhaps. But not ethical.

[Emjay18]

Taxation in itself is ethically wrong, as it is stealing

Lololo

You know Mr. Bern is making so much sense and making progress when the opposition is down to flailing in a "Nuh uh guise it's totally all bad just because!" fit because their entire little bubble is popping. Theft, huh? Nobody is forcing you to pay taxes--you can easily move somewhere where there is no taxtheftion, like the libertarian paradise of Somalia. You, of course, won't, because the first world is such a lovely place to live in as long as you don't have to be responsible for it. That only applies to other people.

Also, ever notice how the stock broker-types of the world are really against all the ebul 'socialism' stuff with vehement zeal? Ya know, the types that make money..... by making money in stocks and literally producing 0 real or practical value except for a monetary moebius strip for themselves that even banks can't match? They seem to really be sweating this whole thing out, which is ironic because they might actually have to sweat when the gravy train finally runs dry. It's truly poetic.

So how exactly are governments/the military/the police/infrastructure supposed to work?

Why, the magic guiding hand of the free (tm) market! That also isn't totally a religious concept in spirit with no realistic fact behind it! That also also isn't a vain attempt by chronically lazy, old, USA born and raised baby boomers to have to pick up that bar tab they've beening avoiding since ever!

[Dezerte]

Taxation in itself is ethically wrong, as it is stealing. If I some day steal 1/3 of your money and everyone elses in the neighborhood, then buy clothes with it and give them to the people, I bet you'd still be pissed. Taxation also hinders economic growth, as it is a punishment for success; higher tax rates will reduce the motivation of people to work hard. On the private sector, as there is competition, these services could be provided much more cheaply, efficiently, and with a better quality.

Think of tax as the way you pay society to keep it civilized and modern. Free education? More entrepreneurs, better workforce and hiring opportunities. Free healthcare? More healthy workforce. Welfare benefits? Less crime, human misery and allows for better social mobility.

Here in the Nordics these things have proven to work, and that's why we're okay with paying higher taxes.

[Helgrimm]

http://www.chicksonright.com/lets-ta...mark-shall-we/
And despite their claims of less inequality, the OECD admits that “there is a considerable gap between the richest and poorest – the top 20% of the population earn close to four times as much as the bottom 20%.”
Crazy and stupid. And unnecessary.

lol I wish this were true in America.

[Rassium]

Anyone else feel like the OP's threads have really gone downhill lately? It's like he isn't even trying anymore.

[satimy]

Denmark is also 90% Dane, 99% European. They are a small racially homogeneous country that a socialist model works in. Now long term I have no idea what their sustainability is, but we have already seen socialism start failing in Greece, Italy and Spain. Would Denmark be the same with 60% of the country having Dane dna? Let's wait 10 years after this Syrian refugee fiasco and see if it's all smiles.


Some might label my line of thinking racist and that's fine but not really the intention of it. If you have a different opinion on racial homogeneous society's in Europe id love to hear about it