Simcrafting Mastery>Haste

[Deleted]

Hey guys,

So I've been running a few sims on my mage to see if I can push that extra dps we need for M tyrant and when I run my sims I end up with this stat prio: SP>Mastery(8.49)>Haste(7.96)>Multi...etc

I was fairly sure that haste would come out on top, but might it be because im way passed 2100 haste? Sitting at around 2.6k

This is for arcane of course.

[Deleted]

Simcraftdump and maybe Log would help you a lot more then this cryptic post.
And yes you should hold a balance between the stats.

[Deleted]

What spec is that? Arcane? Isn't almost everyone getting frost there for the cleave?

[Deleted]

I wouldn't play frost in progress situations, though at this time with gear + legendary ring it barely matters.

And yes, your sim outcome is probably due to the fact that you've hit 2.6k haste.

[The Kao]

And yes, your sim outcome is probably due to the fact that you've hit 2.6k haste.

This.

Haste is always about break points, you might have hit one after which the effect of more haste is drastically reduced. Also, a sim always shows the value 1 point of a stat has with your current gear. As soon as you change something about your gear / stat sum, it also changes the stat weighting. It's never set in stone, no matter what guide authors want to make you believe, and might shift around quite a bit.

[Zelendria]

Haste starts to lose ground on Mastery past 33% buffed Haste. I was 2,222 that put me around 32% buffed, and Mastery was already starting to pull slightly ahead of Haste on Sims for me.
Might be to do with the fact you will not get another pet attack in current gear no matter how much Haste you stack.

[Deleted]

I wouldn't play frost in progress situations

Why not? It's high damage in that particular fight.

[Rinoa]

Both Frost and Arcane are quite fine on Tyrant progress I think. Personally I played Frost, though now a days on farm I just go as Arcane. Both work fine, it's not like Arcanes 2-target is enormously inferior to Frosts either way.

As for the sim, haste loses value over time. If you're at 2.6k then it's not very surprising that mastery is higher as that is still a very powerful stat for Arcane.

[Deleted]

I doubt Arcane can ever approach Frost's two target because of the Ice Lance glyph. I think they take it sometimes on progress for the priority target utility. It's always a gamble though if the advantage is small and the execution must be perfect for it.

[LaplaceNoMa]

Why not? It's high damage in that particular fight.

Frost is better on almost every fight at ~720 gear levels. Arcane gets too unstable there - sure the top parses are higher that frost's due to mark of doom's nature, but for the very same reason the median arcane results tend to be lower even for pure single target pew-pew fights like zakuun.

[Deleted]

That's not true in simulations. But it's true Doom is an unstable thing. I have lost some faith in that spec when a decision swings both ways, and frost is simplistic and reliable in current end game.

[LaplaceNoMa]

That's not true in simulations. But it's true Doom is an unstable thing. I have lost some faith in that spec when a decision swings both ways, and frost is simplistic and reliable in current end game.

You are mistaken.

Raid T18H: Frost>Arcane
http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T18H.html

Raid T18M: Arcane>Frost by 4k dps
http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T18M.html

BUT. There are almost no fights that proceed in conditions favorable to arcane. Frost loses a lot less DPS on movement and any hiccups, too. Half of the bosses have some cleave, etc etc. Frost is THE T18 mage spec, arcane is the situational 'some fights' one, people who think otherwise need to wake up and realize that arcane has stopped being the go-to spec somewhere around the first nerfs to trinkets.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, the T18M profile assumes perfect BiS, and you usually get iskar trinket a lot earlier than prophecy; and while you don't have the 735 prophecy, even those 'patchwerk' 4k dps will become non-existant.

[Deleted]

Ah yes, with Arcane Crystal, which very few use on Frost.

[LaplaceNoMa]

Ah yes, with Arcane Crystal, which very few use on Frost.

Actually, this observation is something that makes things only worse for arcane sim-wise: you are exactly correct, nobody uses arcane crystal, because in actual HFC fights thermal void provides even more dps, which also results in higher average damage. That said, I still know that top arcane results are higher (and I can even say really higher) than top frost results; also, if your guild is already farming the first let's say 8-9 bosses and kill them in like 3 minutes with 3 healers, arcane is also better; simply because its burst value is insanely high, and the shorter the fight, the higher % of the fight is the 'burst'. But when we're talking about, let's say, a 4:30 zakuun kill, a lvl 720 frost mage would outdps a lvl 720 arcane mage around 90% of the time. The remaining 10% are lucky crit and mark of doom streaks on arcane's part, but I, for one, do not enjoy playing such specs. Current arcane is even worse than cata fire - a complete roulette.

[MrExcelion]

Arcane is still represented on Tyrant, but ~80% of the parses involve Frost. Other posters have outlined the issues [like Proph proccing on add]. Still can give it a whirl, but Frost's boss output is perfectly fine, especially if you lust/ring around the 3 minute mark.

[Deleted]

Actually, this observation is something that makes things only worse for arcane sim-wise: you are exactly correct, nobody uses arcane crystal, because in actual HFC fights thermal void provides even more dps, which also results in higher average damage. That said, I still know that top arcane results are higher (and I can even say really higher) than top frost results; also, if your guild is already farming the first let's say 8-9 bosses and kill them in like 3 minutes with 3 healers, arcane is also better; simply because its burst value is insanely high, and the shorter the fight, the higher % of the fight is the 'burst'. But when we're talking about, let's say, a 4:30 zakuun kill, a lvl 720 frost mage would outdps a lvl 720 arcane mage around 90% of the time. The remaining 10% are lucky crit and mark of doom streaks on arcane's part, but I, for one, do not enjoy playing such specs. Current arcane is even worse than cata fire - a complete roulette.

I was about to say I was thinking the other day on another thread that "most avoid Prismatic Crystal but let's see what they do in patchwerk fights". So I went to see logs of Zakuun. Apparently the top 10 had the top and most of the rest without the talent on frost spec.

I think it's also because that on current end-game, frost becomes even more complex than Arcane with that talent on, while without it, it's one of the simplest specs in the game.

[Wilderness]

You are mistaken.

Raid T18H: Frost>Arcane
http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T18H.html

Raid T18M: Arcane>Frost by 4k dps
http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T18M.html

BUT. There are almost no fights that proceed in conditions favorable to arcane. Frost loses a lot less DPS on movement and any hiccups, too. Half of the bosses have some cleave, etc etc. Frost is THE T18 mage spec, arcane is the situational 'some fights' one, people who think otherwise need to wake up and realize that arcane has stopped being the go-to spec somewhere around the first nerfs to trinkets.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, the T18M profile assumes perfect BiS, and you usually get iskar trinket a lot earlier than prophecy; and while you don't have the 735 prophecy, even those 'patchwerk' 4k dps will become non-existant.

First, handwaving away that you usually get M Iskar trinket earlier in order to somehow even out 4k dps is silly. The difference between heroic and mythic prophecy for Arcane is less than 2k dps. Second, the frost single-target profile in all simulations is using PC because its the best single-target talent choice. How many mages do you think, on a progression fight, are going to approach robomages skill of balancing PC with 4T18's long WJ and the class trinket needing to weave Frostbolt and Ice Lance? And then throw Ice Nova into that mix for a fight like Kormrok? Very, very few. If you're not using PC on single-target as Frost then you're looking at more than 2k less (in Mythic gear, don't know about heroic).

Arcane is the best choice for progression on Assault, Reaver, Kormrok, Kilrogg, Gorefiend, Iskar, Socrethar, Zakuun, and Xhul. I think Arcane is better for Mannoroth but a lot can also be said for Frost so I'll call that a tie. Frost has Council, Tyrant, and Archimonde. If you have an odd raid comp that needs you to fulfill a specific role on a fight, then maybe Frost is better for you in specific instances, but assuming a normal balanced comp that list is fairly accurate. Frost is not "THE T18" mage spec. It plays well, and its perfectly fine to play Frost on most or all fights in HFC. But its not the best choice on the majority of them.

Frost is more mobile than Arcane because it has more instant procs. But that only comes into play when you have a fight where you move around often enough that you exhaust your flows of Ice Floes, or on a fight where you need to take Evanesce. You may run out of IF charges on Mannoroth at times, but that's about it. The couple fights where you take Evanesce favor Arcane due to its single-target (Zakuun) or other factors (SN's interrupt on Xhul, better void fiend damage on Xhul, better final burn on Xhul).

[HumbleDuck]

Why not? It's high damage in that particular fight.

Don't forget easier target swap and superior on demand single target burst with no buildup time. ( no WJ, no Icicles, harder hitting abilities, 4pc enormous burst, ... )

In HFC, we found melee cleave to usually be more than enough, and casters are better off single targeting the right targets. This is being neglected with high gear levels / legendary ring at the moment though.

[Deleted]

I thought of that, however, single target is not an end all. It reminds me of Council. People often say "single target is important" but in reality, it might be not that hard to do that last phase for some guilds.

[Zelendria]

I thought of that, however, single target is not an end all. It reminds me of Council. People often say "single target is important" but in reality, it might be not that hard to do that last phase for some guilds.

Don't think I have ever heard anyone in my guild say we wiped because of lack of cleave.
I have heard it numerous times on numerous bosses about wiping because <insert target> didn't get enough ST.

That's all I have to say about the importance of ST DPS