Just turn LFR into HJ + MS

[Deleted]

It's an MMORPG, simple as that. Us "whiners" are what made the game popular in the first place, since we were here from day one to populate it and throw money at Blizzard. Blizzard sold the idea to us (and still do) as an immersive MMORPG-experience, when they are in fact designing it increasingly to be like a MOBA of sorts.

Oh how sweet. You actually think that "pro raiders" are what made this game big? I hope i won't shatter your world, but affordable broadband internet and a casual-MMO ,that WoW always have been, being available at the same time is what made this game big. It didn't get big because of only 10-20% of all players raiding, it got big EVEN THOUGH only a tiny fraction got to see all the content.

Blizzard seems to have a different opinion on what they find immersive for the players then you do. They have shown that many times, ask the people that would've love to fly at the expansion.

[Deleted]

Running away from bosses...

you're not killing the raid bosses

...in small groups...

this 1-3 player version of the raid

...for weeks...

a tough process that might take anything from days to weeks

... sure sounds like compelling gameplay. Flabbergasted no AAA titles used this idea more extensively till now.

[Deathquoi]

Names aren't that important. What matters is how it addresses the current gameplay issues.

And Medal System is a garbage idea.

Actually heroes journey sounds shit too. If you even did anything like that it should be an alternative. I shouldn't have to run through a 3 man version of the raid over the course of a few weeks just to be able to walk into the real raid.

[PrairieChicken]

How is it different from questing?

Also it will take more dev resources so they will not (or cannot) do it.

[Alroxas]

Also it will take more dev resources so they will not (or cannot) do it.

This is basically the problem. We all want more content but the problem is that content takes time to develop and resources to be spent in that area.

Recycling raid instances into LFR (via tuning the mechanics, HP, and damage) is relatively easy. It is also cost effective for the time spent on creating such content.

Now the OP's suggestion of more content while valid doesn't quite map out relevancy of the content leading up to raid. For instance:

For example, if a character completes the Nagrand storyline and reaches level 100, it may begin the Highmaul Hero's Journey.

So what happens to an Alt which reaches 100 after BRF is introduced? Would the alt have to go through the HJ for HM or skip that to go straight to the HJ for BRF? If the latter, then you've just made the HJ for HM irrelevant anymore. The same issue comes up every time someone argues for new dungeons which is new dungeons make old dungeons irrelevant to do.

Now one might argue that given the current state of WoD, there's a lot of irrelevant content with Tanaan Jungle. It's true, the baleful tokens once empowered provides gear that is better than mythic dungeons and better than LFR HFC. Why run those things unless, the rewards are at least equal (if not better)? Hence, the necessity for the increase rewards in 6.2.3 to bring back a better carrot for the player base that's still playing.

At the very least, Timewalking dungeons are providing some relevancy for very old (previous xpac) dungeons since the gear there scales with the player. It does get overshadowed at max level, but for leveling alts in the post cata xpac, it's a nice break and gives more options for dungeon running.

Perhaps a better approach would be to have timewalking raids, but the problem there lies in the kind of work that would be necessary to tune those raids (and rewards) so that they are decent but not incredibly overpowered (or underpowered).

[Plutarch78]

Can we stop with these god damn "remove LFR" threads already?

[jMerliN]

How is it different from questing?

Also it will take more dev resources so they will not (or cannot) do it.

It's mostly not, it's just questing inside an instance that uses the art assets created for the raid.

The only real excuse for LFR to exist anymore is because it justifies creating good raid content for people who actually enjoy raiding, because we know the majority of players don't raid (or even attempt anything beyond normal difficulty).

There are lots of story quests that end up with you in your own instance, and to some extent they did some of this with HM and HFC having zone-level rares. But the idea would just be to extend the story into the raid, but as group content (1-3, or 1-5 flex or something). It could also potentially be a daily/weekly type thing, or be repeatable with a lockout and drop gear that's end-of-quest-chain level (in WoD that's just below heroic dungeon gear).

It wouldn't really require substantial dev resources because the technologies to build all of this already exist and are used for precisely these reasons, and the assets already exist as well. If additional cutscenes are available in this mode + writing, it would still require very little investment, and would be a way for the majority of players to see the raid instances and have another avenue once they're done leveling and finished with the story quests to get some basic gear.

LFR doesn't really serve a role, it's not raiding and it's not a good way for people to see the content since it's focused on killing bosses. That's like saying killing a world boss in a zone is a good way for people to see the zone. This would be a better option and would likely be more enjoyable for the majority, at very little cost. It's small pieces of content like this that make the game feel polished and keep retention high.

[Deleted]

Oh how sweet. You actually think that "pro raiders" are what made this game big? I hope i won't shatter your world, but affordable broadband internet and a casual-MMO ,that WoW always have been, being available at the same time is what made this game big. It didn't get big because of only 10-20% of all players raiding, it got big EVEN THOUGH only a tiny fraction got to see all the content.

Blizzard seems to have a different opinion on what they find immersive for the players then you do. They have shown that many times, ask the people that would've love to fly at the expansion.

Where did I say "pro raiders?" I'm a casual, and at best I dabbled with some Molten Core, BLW and AQ in vanilla before stepping up my game a bit in TBC and WotLK. You can support a certain type of design without being a raider.

[maizensh]

The only reason to remove LFR (and Normal along with it, because otherwise it makes no sense) is to make raiding exclusive to a smaller player base thus increasing its glamour. Essentially making some content inaccessible to most of the player base. Though currently this "some content" happens to be the core story and actually most content.

OP, let me make a counter offer to you, what if the core story was told through HJ (or whatever casual system), while raiding was accessible only to people willing to put some time into it but having no major story impact (but still keeping the loot benefits, because real effort should be rewarded with in-game benefit)? Lets say in that casual system you and 4 other players defeat a 2-3 most role relevant bosses with help of some NPC allies, while the raid revolves around clearing the way for 5 heroes (+NPCs) to those fights. So everyone gets what they want, casuals get their core story while raiders get their exclusivity, retain loot and arbitrarily hard content.

I mean, in this game I raid for the challenge. I literally don't care about the story. So if for some reason I want to see the story I just queue up for it and finish it. But apparently many casual players care about the story, so why not making that available to everyone, while gating only the really challenging and side-story content?

[Grahamington]

I like this idea but I don't think LFR is exactly a bad thing.
I simply think LFR needs to be worked on A LOT!

They need a smarter system that shows who is not putting in any effort toward the dungeon.
Perhaps make the fights a little hard and maybe adjust the looting.

[Deleted]

So what happens to an Alt which reaches 100 after BRF is introduced? Would the alt have to go through the HJ for HM or skip that to go straight to the HJ for BRF? If the latter, then you've just made the HJ for HM irrelevant anymore. The same issue comes up every time someone argues for new dungeons which is new dungeons make old dungeons irrelevant to do.

When has that scenario ever been a problem, though? They could implement catch-up mechanics, for one. Alternatively, the attunement could be necessary for a single character, like flying in WoD. Doing the Hero's Journey on other characters could be optional.

Part of the point of the feature is to give us the story of a raid in a more immersive and thorough way, and to give us something to do while waiting for new raids to unlock. If (a) you're an active raider who want to get it done a.s.a.p., then you'll probably be content with doing each Hero's Journey once per account. The rest of the time, presumably you will be raiding. If (b) you have no intentions of raiding, then it doesn't really matter to you all that much if you complete a Hero's Journey after it was current. If (c) you're just levelling an alt in the most recent patch, then the most recent Hero's Journey might be all you want to do, in case you want current rewards. Although I see no reason why a Hero's Journey couldn't be repeatable for more rewards.

[Apexis]

Exactly. Are you saying more content is... bad? :P

These things affect the entire game, really. LFR arguably undermines regular raiding by not giving people incentive to step up to the challenge, but rather taking it away. Similarly, the real lack of tough endgame content that feels relevant to the main narrative is a serious problem to a lot of casual gamers these days. We either go LFR, which is neither challenging or fun, or we do regular daily grind content, which is usually disconnected from the story and doesn't make you feel engaged with what's going on.

Thing is the numbers, especially on this site from time to time just don't suggest that the LFR is having any effect on raiding as a whole. The amount of people raiding today are at or just above those that raided back in Vanilla and throughout the rest of the expansions. People that want to raid will always find their way into a raid group.

The people that sit on the fringe of wanting to raid for whatever reason, don't find a constant raid group (lack of skill, achievements, cloak, ring, etc). There is a very large segment that has never wanted to actually raid and until WoD, they usually found themselves grinding heroic dungeons endlessly and doing all sort of other things. These are largely the people that do the LFR and whom it was actually meant for. This also why Blizzard has made actually less content out in the world for these people to do. So few bother to actually do world content, so it saves them a ton to have them queuing up for the LFR.

[grandgato]

Human psychology is 90% of games design, and part of the reason why WoW fails horribly nowadays is because its developers only seek to gratify people instantly, never to challenge them.

Then you could say most video games "fail" nowadays. Most PVE games I've played recently are either very easy by default, or have a scalable difficulty selection to accommodate player choice. There is no evidence that this will be changing either.


I think you have some well thought out ideas, but I don't see why they need to come at the expense of Raid Finder.

[parcus]

Thing is the numbers, especially on this site from time to time just don't suggest that the LFR is having any effect on raiding as a whole. The amount of people raiding today are at or just above those that raided back in Vanilla and throughout the rest of the expansions. People that want to raid will always find their way into a raid group.

And where are said numbers .?

[Alroxas]

When has that scenario ever been a problem, though? They could implement catch-up mechanics, for one. Alternatively, the attunement could be necessary for a single character, like flying in WoD. Doing the Hero's Journey on other characters could be optional.

I think we're on different wavelengths here. What I'm saying is that investing in HJ mechanic that you suggested is basically a waste of resources because after the raid that is associated with the HJ is over, that HJ becomes irrelevant. As in content that people won't play because they've moved on to the "current" raid/HJ. If you take the path that attunement is on an account basis (such as Draenor Flying), then it's even more a waste of development because once you're done with it, you won't likely do it again (on an alt). Similar to how starting dungeons were skipped in Cata when new dungeons dropped. The rewards weren't worth it and players spent the most of their time in the new dungeons to gear up for the then current raid. In WoD, the Tanaan Jungle (while an excellent catch-up mechanic) trivialized dungeon running (including mythic dungeons) and HFC LFR. You could get better rewards just farming Tanaan Jungle. The new patch (6.2.3) seems to address this by increasing the potential item level drops from dungeons, adding in lv 110 heirlooms, and valor upgrades to further upgrade gear.

Part of the point of the feature is to give us the story of a raid in a more immersive and thorough way, and to give us something to do while waiting for new raids to unlock.

This part I do agree with, HFC has been lackluster in storytelling. The moment that Grommash is no longer the bad guy is still not explained very well. His change of heart story seems lacking from the Alliance POV (it could be different for Horde). More story would have been better but ultimately it doesn't seem to matter much as the next xpac seems to not involve the characters from Alternate Draenor (with exception to Gul'dan).


Regardless, LFR is easier to justify as cost effective means to show the non-raiding population of WoW the storyline that's involved with raids: The conclusion to story of each expansion (i.e. Deathwing's defeat, 2nd Fall of the Mogu Empire, the Freeing of Alt. Draenor). Unless you could show how your system would cost less in terms of development time and resources than simply taking an existing raid and tuning it down to tourist mode, I don't think Blizzard would seriously consider it... at least the bean counters that work for Blizzard anyway.

[Ealyssa]

if they decouple legendary quest drops from it, i agree. till then, it hurts raiders of course. because their alts or char-switches are forced to it, as a way faster catch up mechanic.

How is LFR faster than NM ?!?!?

LFR is more convenient and pretty much fail proof. But it's NOT faster. LFR "rush" on reset day take at least 2 hours for a dps factoring queue time. Will be waaaaay longer past 2 first days of ID.

2 hours is more than enough to go trough NM with a decent group.

So LFR really only is "forced" to angry bad players who think themselves as "raiders". Truth is if you can't find a group for NM clean, you are pretty bad, and well at your place in LFR.

And I clearly make a distinction between LFR players, who are just happy enough with LFR. Which are totally fine and even the majority of wow players. And the angry ragers who think themselves too good for LFR but also feel "forced" into it. Nope, you aren't forced. You just certainly suck at that game. No big deal, keep farming your legendary in LFR, nothing to be mad about...

[MoanaLisa]

I'm going to close this due to the "Remove LFR" bit.

Mojo, if you want to restart the thread without mentioning LFR and make this a proposal for an interesting game system that will be fine.

We do not need and are not going to start another thread arguing about whether or not to remove LFR.

You want to PM me about this we can talk about it.