Protection legion Discussion

[NightTrain32]

So your saying there will be a time while tanking that we won't take damage for 5 seconds? I can't see this ever happening unless they make a specific boss mechanic, and then why wouldn't your healer have healed you in those 5 seconds. It is just such a gimmicky talent that will only ever be pick if they purposely make it useful for one fight, waste of a talent.

[Ashenia]

I wouldn't even waste time to think about it, it sucks, end of story. We need something better to compete with other tanks who can heal/absorb/cd shit tons of damage. I think everyone just agreed that Alpha Protection Warrior, was a fail. Let's see what another patch brings in..

[Valkaneer]

Are you talking about protection?

Second wind worked the same for every spec, and yes it use to be good for all of them. Second wind originally worked that you were healed when ever you were stunned or incapacitated. Then it was changed to being a sub 30% heal. Then it was nerfed because people had a hard time killing us in PvP, and warriors would Hamstring, leap, stun, and run while reneging to 30%.

[Toppy]

Second wind worked the same for every spec, and yes it use to be good for all of them. Second wind originally worked that you were healed when ever you were stunned or incapacitated. Then it was changed to being a sub 30% heal. Then it was nerfed because people had a hard time killing us in PvP, and warriors would Hamstring, leap, stun, and run while reneging to 30%.

they just need to remove it or revert it to the stun method but baseline. It got wildly popular in MoP as the only method for warriors to keep viable in pvp, then gutted to uselessness in WoD, and worse still in legion.

[Deleted]

Second wind is just a manner to regenerate you quickly between packs. You might be able to shockwave and kite for a short time with thunderclap too. In raids its maybe good for free sustain when your offtanking. And maybe only take damage once in a wile.

I don´t think the talent needs change. If it does maybe shorten the damage slightly and have it heal a bit less in return.
The 3% leech talent sounds like a safe bet when not interested.

I was wondering. How does Ignore Pain work against dots?

[Valech]

Second wind worked the same for every spec, and yes it use to be good for all of them. Second wind originally worked that you were healed when ever you were stunned or incapacitated. Then it was changed to being a sub 30% heal. Then it was nerfed because people had a hard time killing us in PvP, and warriors would Hamstring, leap, stun, and run while reneging to 30%.

Second wind was NEVER good for protection. Not once. Stun and incapacitation effects were so scarce throughout all addons, that it would never be worth it. Unless you are talking about PvP - but again, the design intent for prot is not with a focus on PvP up to WoD. Might change with Legion.

Asides, this does not answer my question. You were giving the example of you beating a ret with the help of second wind. That is not relevant in this discussion unless you beat him in prot. That is why I asked.

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Second wind is just a manner to regenerate you quickly between packs. You might be able to shockwave and kite for a short time with thunderclap too. In raids its maybe good for free sustain when your offtanking. And maybe only take damage once in a wile.

I don´t think the talent needs change. If it does maybe shorten the damage slightly and have it heal a bit less in return.
The 3% leech talent sounds like a safe bet when not interested.

I was wondering. How does Ignore Pain work against dots?

5 seconds until impact is far too long for kiting purposes. Especially with intervene and charge being merged and the second charge of charge competing with utility.
If the boss gets taunted from you because of mechanics, you will be at max health in no time, since all the hots are still ticking on you. And if some AoE damage is going on, it will always trigger the 5 second waiting time.
Second wind is a bad choice for tanks in any version of it and in all scenarios one could come up with.

Leech sounds potent. Perhaps slightly weak.

Ignore pain reduces the damage of all sources by 90% until the threshold is reached. Counts for all types of damage minus fall damage.

[Deleted]

5 seconds until impact is far too long for kiting purposes. Especially with intervene and charge being merged and the second charge of charge competing with utility.
If the boss gets taunted from you because of mechanics, you will be at max health in no time, since all the hots are still ticking on you. And if some AoE damage is going on, it will always trigger the 5 second waiting time.
Second wind is a bad choice for tanks in any version of it and in all scenarios one could come up with.

Leech sounds potent. Perhaps slightly weak.

Ignore pain reduces the damage of all sources by 90% until the threshold is reached. Counts for all types of damage minus fall damage.

Thanks for the quick answer. I was confused about the "next" that was put into the ip tooltip.

About second wind. Consider shockwave already stuns for 4 seconds. You can thunderclap and walk away. Wile you regen as the mobs waddle at you. Sounds perfect for soloing or dungeons.
You can realisticly kite for 8 seconds till you have to thunderclap again. (If no ranged mobs are present.) Thats already 48% of your health back. If leap is added you can basicly regen to full hp.

3% leech is low. But when you add it over the people in your raid it becomes better overall. It's just that slightly "It's actually not that bad." talent.

[Deleted]

Regarding activating second with with ignore pain, there is that artifact talent that changes the absorb from 90 to 98% currently. If they allow that to go up to 100 baseline or at rank 4/5, and if absorbs don't count as taking damage, i suppose it should be possible to activate second wind with it, especially when solo farming old content thats still not a free kill.

[Valech]

.. I still don´t get why people bring up that soloing old content argument as if it bears any weight. If I was to decide between a talent that is tremendously brilliant for soloing or talent, that is a tiny little bit helpful in current content, I´d always go for the latter.

Anyway, regarding kiting: That math of course only works if there are no random sources of damage. Tbh I cannot remember an ecnounter in recent addons, that required kiting by a tank at all. Even the adds at Tortos in ToT could be face tanked with a little cooldown management. And aside from monks, warriors and other tanks had problems with keeping the aggro while kiting them/kiting them at all. In this addon, we had strongt adds in the last mythic-only phase of Margok. Despite having the abilities you mentioned, it was hard to nigh impossible to kite them as a warrior without losing aggro, because your banner would not hold for the entire phase.

[Deleted]

Well considering like only 20% (ballpark) of the wow population does organized raiding, it kinda behooves them to put in some choices for the other players too i think. Old content, solo content, world content, 5 man content etc is still a big part of the game, consumed by many daily, so it certainly has relevance.
Would i rather have a more exciting talent? yes. Am i surprised there are some situational/crutch/solo play talents? no.

Second wind (and execute for that matter) can be usefull/fun things to have in 5 mans or when soloing. Second wind basically removes the need for food when questing for example, allowing you to play more offensively etc.

Personally, if we had legion second wind on live today, i would use it to do 5 man without a healer. Something we currently struggle with more then other tanks ilvl for ilvl.

[NightTrain32]

I don´t think the talent needs change. If it does maybe shorten the damage slightly and have it heal a bit less in return.

I think all we are saying is second winds only place is something like soloing old content/maybe leveling. And if no tank should ever really take it for actual tanking then why in the world would it be offered in a tanking talent tree, unless they just want to troll players that don't know better. Plus this is a little bit of a slap in the face as they decided to take away all of our self healing abilities and then thought oh well lets give them something completely worthless just to tease us with.

To the above poster, are you saying you could last through fights with out any heals? I know its alpha but I saw a dk doing the new dungeon with out a healer and he was healing himself for 300,000 - 1,000,000 at a time, multiple times during the fights to barely stay alive. I can't believe a warrior could last during these fights (so you could even take advantage of second wind) unless he/she was out gearing the content.

[Valech]

Well considering like only 20% (ballpark) of the wow population does organized raiding, it kinda behooves them to put in some choices for the other players too i think. Old content, solo content, world content, 5 man content etc is still a big part of the game, consumed by many daily, so it certainly has relevance.
Would i rather have a more exciting talent? yes. Am i surprised there are some situational/crutch/solo play talents? no.

Second wind (and execute for that matter) can be usefull/fun things to have in 5 mans or when soloing. Second wind basically removes the need for food when questing for example, allowing you to play more offensively etc.

I agree that I might look at things from a PvE point of view and too a lesser extent from a PvP point of view. I could be oblivious to outside those domains. I just have trouble with believing, that developers sat at a table and said "hey, let´s put a talent explicitly for soloing old content into the warrior skill tree." But then again I am clueless why they would put that talent in our skilltree in any case.

[Toppy]

.. I still don´t get why people bring up that soloing old content argument as if it bears any weight. If I was to decide between a talent that is tremendously brilliant for soloing or talent, that is a tiny little bit helpful in current content, I´d always go for the latter.

Anyway, regarding kiting: That math of course only works if there are no random sources of damage. Tbh I cannot remember an ecnounter in recent addons, that required kiting by a tank at all. Even the adds at Tortos in ToT could be face tanked with a little cooldown management. And aside from monks, warriors and other tanks had problems with keeping the aggro while kiting them/kiting them at all. In this addon, we had strongt adds in the last mythic-only phase of Margok. Despite having the abilities you mentioned, it was hard to nigh impossible to kite them as a warrior without losing aggro, because your banner would not hold for the entire phase.

Well in this case right now, its more so that there is no situation where you'd take legion second wind

[Deleted]

Well in this case right now, its more so that there is no situation where you'd take legion second wind

While questing as Protection i suppose i would pick it considering the spec has zero self healing otherwise.

Arms has Victory Rush which is enough and Fury as superb self-healing definitively.
Still, i loathe that they removed Spell Reflection, Execute, Victory Rush and Berserker Rage from certain specs, all of them are core abilities i've used for years, definitively a downer to lose them.

[Tirilka]

While questing as Protection i suppose i would pick it considering the spec has zero self healing otherwise.

Arms has Victory Rush which is enough and Fury as superb self-healing definitively.
Still, i loathe that they removed Spell Reflection, Execute, Victory Rush and Berserker Rage from certain specs, all of them are core abilities i've used for years, definitively a downer to lose them.

Did they remove Bloodcraze too? Because it and Shield Barrier is enough for me to aggro half the Temple of Shanaar and spam revenge and barrier and be topped off. Throw in Victory Rush and you can't be killed while doing outdoor content. I know they removed Victory Rush (bastards), but is that passive heal scrapped too? It procs from multistrike, but it can't be rewired to proc from crit.

That's what troubles me the most, to be honest. I love being tanky as hell while out in the world, while still doing solid damage with Revenge and Shield Slam/Devastate. Seems like that isn't to be so in Legion, despite Blizzard's talk about "all tanks will be good in soloing".

[Valkaneer]

Did they remove Bloodcraze too? Because it and Shield Barrier is enough for me to aggro half the Temple of Shanaar and spam revenge and barrier and be topped off. Throw in Victory Rush and you can't be killed while doing outdoor content. I know they removed Victory Rush (bastards), but is that passive heal scrapped too? It procs from multistrike, but it can't be rewired to proc from crit.

That's what troubles me the most, to be honest. I love being tanky as hell while out in the world, while still doing solid damage with Revenge and Shield Slam/Devastate. Seems like that isn't to be so in Legion, despite Blizzard's talk about "all tanks will be good in soloing".

Correct I can't find the Vanilla skill Blood Craze anywhere, ya know the one that we have had since the Warrior conception.

[Valech]

Correct I can't find the Vanilla skill Blood Craze anywhere, ya know the one that we have had since the Warrior conception.

Why exactly is it important since when we had that spell? Also, Tirilka did not say anything remotely hinting, that he claims the spell to be a core ability. Why being ironic?

[Tirilka]

Correct I can't find the Vanilla skill Blood Craze anywhere, ya know the one that we have had since the Warrior conception.

Yeah yeah, very sarcastic, but you don't get a cookie because
Blood Craze

[Valkaneer]

Why exactly is it important since when we had that spell? Also, Tirilka did not say anything remotely hinting, that he claims the spell to be a core ability. Why being ironic?

It's important because since conception we had self healing. Now blizz has taken it away. It's not complicated to understand that.

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Yeah yeah, very sarcastic, but you don't get a cookie because
Blood Craze

yep, now find it in Legion (since that is what I was referring to, as this is a Legion thread).

[Seani]

I like legion as it allows for different types of tanks now for each class. There are tools available to create resource generating tanks with crit and haste, as well as baseline mitigation tanks with mastery and versatility. Bonus armor will remain the beez neez for all tanks. what do you all think?