Protection legion Discussion

[Voyle]

Looking at some higher dps ranking very very rarely does a player manage to squeeze out more devastates then auto attacks.

Just wanted to add, that is with the current rotation. When thunderclap is added to the mix the gap will widen.

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Btw...on that note. What is up with our artifact weapon? Do you even use it on single target? When do you use it? Do you use it like a mini shield wall if you need 60% melee mitigation?

I use it in place of devastate, when shield slam is not going to be up for 3 seconds, unless there is an encounter specific reason to save it. With devastator this may actually be a loss though.

[Toybox]

Our artifact ability seems like it'd be pretty strong for solo tanking Guarm. When you turn the boss away for flashing fangs, you can critically block both the subsequent attacks (flashing fangs/attack/multiheaded all land pretty much instantly, and results in a wipe without externals/CDs/huge IP).

[Chrno]

I'm having a really hard time understanding why people are upset Focused Rage is possibly going away. It's a minority of people obviously, but it's still annoying.

If you guys are whining about shit you just macro together anyway, then stop whining. Ask for baseline buffs. Anything that you macro-and-forget to save action bar space is poor design. You can't possibly argue in favor of button bloat without purposefully omitting macroing.
*snip*

You honestly macro FR O_o .... how can that honestly end well ... how do you even manage your rage when FR randomly goes off ....
I think you've actually been using FR wrong ..

[Deleted]

I'm having a really hard time understanding why people are upset Focused Rage is possibly going away. It's a minority of people obviously, but it's still annoying.

We've had a off gcd offensive rage dump in one form or another for 12 years. we've been a gcd locked class for 12 years.

now we don't, and now there is a talent that leaves you with empty GCDs.

seems like a huge design philosophy change to me.

not to mention this is a problem of their own making, revenge was fine before they started messing with it.

[Valech]

If you guys are whining about shit you just macro together anyway, then stop whining. Ask for baseline buffs. Anything that you macro-and-forget to save action bar space is poor design. You can't possibly argue in favor of button bloat without purposefully omitting macroing.

I really liked what you wrote until you revealed that you have no clue.

Shame.

[Enitzu]

Enitzu, you seem to completely fail to understand how indomitable works, how ignore pain works and how important tank damage is.

You keep saying, "25% more to a single IP" but that isn't how indomitable works. It's 25% to every IP. It makes your dragon scales buff 25% stronger. It makes vengeance 25% stronger.

You claim 25% extra health is a crutch that can be played around with better healers or tanks... but even playing perfectly 25% extra health saves healers mana by keeping you out of critical health. 25% health gives me an extra million hp. If you are sitting at 300k then your healers are going to use lesser healing wave to burn mana but get you out of range of being one shot. Since I have 1 million more hp, taking the same damage will leave me at 1.3 million hp. Low but comfortable. Healers can let lifebloom and rip tide heal us up as they use healing wave to be efficient and save mana.

Tank damage is incredibly important to any fight with a semblance of dps checks. A tank pulling 260k dps lowers the requirements for the rest of the raid. Healer damage is important too. Not caring about this is the hallmark of a shitty player.

As I said, it really depends on the rest of the changes that come into play. 25% stronger IPs is insignificant if by gaining that 25% you lose out on even more. Looking at a single IP strength vs the total amount of IP dmg absorbed over a fight is what we would need to look at. If the only thing that matters is having that big IP at certain times during a fight then I agree the 25% buff is a big deal. But if we are talking dmg over the course of an entire fight, then that 25% maybe a loss overall. I haven't spent any time on ptr so I have no idea how it's actually playing out atm. Don't plan to do any testing until more is released and I can get a full picture on what they are planning.

Tank damage is important. I never said it was not. But whether or not I pull 230k or 260k will not make or break any fight. If it does, well then my raid has much bigger issues. Tanks are not now, nor have they ever been, about producing damage. We don't play tanks because we can do good dmg. If that was the case not a single person would be here playing warrior. So, to the "Not caring about this is the hallmark of a shitty player." I say why the hell are you not playing pally or DK? You're gimping your raid by not pushing out more dps bro

[Lysozyme]

Firstly, I'd rather take a little more damage over the course of the fight if my on demand absorb is bigger whenever I want it.

Secondly, you're not accounting for the 25% extra health. That really matters a lot for survivability.


Comparing number of devastates cast versus number of autoattacks is not the whole story. Firstly, you should compare it in the 7.1.5 rotation, not the current one. Secondly, devastator is slightly worse than it would appear from that result, because you can get shield slam procs when it's suboptimal for you to get them, which doesn't happen with devastate. It's just more complicated than you're making out from such a simple comparison. I will do a complete analysis when we are closer to having finalised details (though by that time we will hopefully have working sims anyway, which would obviate the need for it!)


I mourn the loss of FR because I enjoyed the game play. If you didn't, fine. If you were macroing it together you were doing it wrong.

[omglazor]

I'll miss my million+ shield slams. I have no problems with AOE threat (short of skittish), so the extra single-target DPS was really awesome to have, especially for soloing

[deadmanfred]

.


Comparing number of devastates cast versus number of autoattacks is not the whole story. Firstly, you should compare it in the 7.1.5 rotation, not the current one. Secondly, devastator is slightly worse than it would appear from that result, because you can get shield slam procs when it's suboptimal for you to get them, which doesn't happen with devastate. It's just more complicated than you're making out from such a simple comparison. I will do a complete analysis when we are closer to having finalised details (though by that time we will hopefully have working sims anyway, which would obviate the need for it!)

Yes this true, with the new rotation thunder clap getting added into the mix devastater pulls even farther ahead. On the ptr I had maybe 1 shield slam reset get wasted in a 3 min attempt, not really a loss. I see a lot of people saying this takes us away from being gcd locked, but in reality your spamming shield slam faster in order to use those procs asap, so nothing may be going off but your not just going to be waiting you'll spamming SS praying for a proc.

Also this down playing of discussion is a bit conceded on your end, sure not everyone on here is a theorycraftor but I'd like to think the average wow player is slightly more intelligent then average, or maybe I'm being conceded. No one is saying that because of this comparisin on devestater is clearly better. When I brought up comparing melees vs devastates I said it was food for thought, it's pretty clear that the average to below average player will get more AAs then devastate, so at first glance, devastater is better purely for SS resets even if you waste some of the procs. The 25% hp and added healing is a bit too OP for some fights, but that's good gives us choice!

[Deleted]

So, they finally gave some insight into their reasoning for the changes.

They wanted Revenge to have a more defined role in our rotation and figured that removing the enjoyment focused rage was required to define Revenge.

I mean, there is obviously a very small amount of design space left with our numerous abilities. It's not like they could have made revenge generate more rage per target hit, so that it jumps up a bit in priority when there are more adds around. Another completely impossible idea would be to give revenge charges, and let it consume all charges in order to do x damage and generate x rage, so that it serves as something we don't want to use on cooldown but is a cooldown to use before it caps out (and would increase the value of crit by increasing parry chance). Nope, they obviously had to cut focused rage.

"yeah we felt warriors press *too* many buttons".

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So, my parses in HC are absurdly low https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...r/18606570/10/ may I get a small hand over here?
Other than ele, I died like a scrub there.

[Voyle]

Devastator is slightly worse than it would appear from that result, because you can get shield slam procs when it's suboptimal for you to get them, which doesn't happen with devastate.

You can also get super optimal procs that are not available with devastate. The proc can be immediately after you shield slam as well as immediately before. There is room on both sides of the spectrum.

[Jastall]

No idea why they think FR is so problematic. Unless you have Ultimatum talented, you barely ever have the rage to use it if you're tanking. It's mainly used as a DPS boost in situations where you're not in danger, and it's not like Prot does spectacular DPS even with it either. If their changes end up doing the same thing, just with Revenge instead of FR+SS proc... then what's the point of it all anyway? They're just removing a button and playstyle for its own sake.

[Jjmackey]

Our artifact ability seems like it'd be pretty strong for solo tanking Guarm. When you turn the boss away for flashing fangs, you can critically block both the subsequent attacks (flashing fangs/attack/multiheaded all land pretty much instantly, and results in a wipe without externals/CDs/huge IP).

We had a 1M wipe on him last week, so I've solo tanked all the way through. The artifact ability is pretty crucial for me in some spots, so your point is spot on.

There's of course the chance that you would have naturally gotten a critical block or two, missed out on a Shield Slam proc and then it would've been a loss, but it's overall a consistent and safe bet. That's basically the only fight though.

[Konnery]

I'm having a really hard time understanding why people are upset Focused Rage is possibly going away. It's a minority of people obviously, but it's still annoying.

If you guys are whining about shit you just macro together anyway, then stop whining. Ask for baseline buffs. Anything that you macro-and-forget to save action bar space is poor design. You can't possibly argue in favor of button bloat without purposefully omitting macroing.

It doesn't matter if it's off GCD or not. All (important) Defensive skills are off GCD.

Stop defending shitty parroted playstyles that the even the majority of players can see are counter-intuitive when the problem is baseline abilities hit for shit compared to other classes. Parroting just signaling the devs to put less effort or even throw nerfs. There's no reason Warriors shouldn't be doing comparable damage to other tanks baseline.

Ask for baseline buffs. Stop asking for button bloat. Don't ask for spammable offensive skills off GCD that you're just going to macro and forget when they can just as easily buff abilities that are on GCD that deserve being pressed.

As for Devsator they specifically said it's a playstyle choice. They know and don't intend it for bleeding-edge content in general outside niches. Legion Devastate serves no purpose except to reset Shield slam and swallow GCD. Devastator is a simple, clean talent choice and only reason people are bitching is the same reason they'd bitch if any other ability got replaced--They'll have to wait to get fed crackers to go back to parroting whatever the FotM build is because they're more concerned with being figuratively above the rest of the playerbase than actually playing the game.

As for Revenge nothing important changes because because Prot Warriors don't have an on-demand spammable aoe and rely too much on a passive bleed to hold threat. The solution to this would to simply make Revenge 360 (or at least 270) range, or just replace Revenge with Whirlwind.

Revenge existed because of stances. Now that stances are gone, there's no reason for Revenge to exist and Whirlwind can supersede all functions it provided through prot-only passive/talents.

The only, ONLY way Heroic Strike could come back is if they bring back rage-gen on auto-attacks for Prot. It only ever existed to give you a reason to not sit at capped Rage.

@Voyle Artifact ability, much like other class/specs, exists to attmped to fill a gap. Prot War artifact is an AoE that doubles as an emergency defensive cooldown that synergizes with the critical block elite trait. The problem is that, unlike Fist of Fury, it can be easily interrupted/wasted. Originally it was suppose function like Aegis of Aggramar... but we got a shitty throwaway Artifact instead.

First, if you macro FR to anything you're retarded.

Second the current iteration of revenge on the PTR is bad, that's why people are pissed because Blizzard thinks it's a replacement for FR when it's not.

Your goal as Protection is to get rage to spend on SB and IP to mitigate damage. Using a GCD for revenge makes no sense because it doesn't help you get rage(unless you spec vengeance) and it doesn't push damage because it delays you from getting another shield slam which hits way harder.

So yeah, revenge does not replace FR in any way, it lowers our single target and is only useful in single target if you take vengeance. It also makes the spec feel slower because we have less buttons to press and when you DO have to use it for the vengeance proc, it feels shitty because it slows down the gameplay.

[Deleted]

Tested it on the PTR. For me Devastator is a 22% dps increase against single target with one cleave add.

[Bigbazz]

1

I'm having a really hard time understanding why people are upset Focused Rage is possibly going away. It's a minority of people obviously, but it's still annoying.

If you guys are whining about shit you just macro together anyway, then stop whining. Ask for baseline buffs. Anything that you macro-and-forget to save action bar space is poor design. You can't possibly argue in favor of button bloat without purposefully omitting macroing.

It doesn't matter if it's off GCD or not. All (important) Defensive skills are off GCD.

Stop defending shitty parroted playstyles that the even the majority of players can see are counter-intuitive when the problem is baseline abilities hit for shit compared to other classes. Parroting just signaling the devs to put less effort or even throw nerfs. There's no reason Warriors shouldn't be doing comparable damage to other tanks baseline.

Ask for baseline buffs. Stop asking for button bloat. Don't ask for spammable offensive skills off GCD that you're just going to macro and forget when they can just as easily buff abilities that are on GCD that deserve being pressed.

As for Devsator they specifically said it's a playstyle choice. They know and don't intend it for bleeding-edge content in general outside niches. Legion Devastate serves no purpose except to reset Shield slam and swallow GCD. Devastator is a simple, clean talent choice and only reason people are bitching is the same reason they'd bitch if any other ability got replaced--They'll have to wait to get fed crackers to go back to parroting whatever the FotM build is because they're more concerned with being figuratively above the rest of the playerbase than actually playing the game.

As for Revenge nothing important changes because because Prot Warriors don't have an on-demand spammable aoe and rely too much on a passive bleed to hold threat. The solution to this would to simply make Revenge 360 (or at least 270) range, or just replace Revenge with Whirlwind.

Revenge existed because of stances. Now that stances are gone, there's no reason for Revenge to exist and Whirlwind can supersede all functions it provided through prot-only passive/talents.

The only, ONLY way Heroic Strike could come back is if they bring back rage-gen on auto-attacks for Prot. It only ever existed to give you a reason to not sit at capped Rage.

@Voyle Artifact ability, much like other class/specs, exists to attmped to fill a gap. Prot War artifact is an AoE that doubles as an emergency defensive cooldown that synergizes with the critical block elite trait. The problem is that, unlike Fist of Fury, it can be easily interrupted/wasted. Originally it was suppose function like Aegis of Aggramar... but we got a shitty throwaway Artifact instead.

Sorry this just seems like you're mad that people disagree with you and you want to silence them for speaking up about their preferred playstyle, which is being removed. How about you stop whining about people whining about Blizzard messing with the spec. Because your whole reasoning for everything has no objective basis, nor is it taking into account other peoples views, you're projecting your subjective views as to why you think the spec objectively does or does not need or have Revenge/FR/HS/Off GCD dps gameplay etc etc.

[Gaust]

I don't have access to the PTR, so can someone explain Devastator to me?

Does it replace Devastate or does it simply remove the ability to reset Shield Slam with it?

Thanks.

[Deleted]

I don't have access to the PTR, so can someone explain Devastator to me?

Does it replace Devastate or does it simply remove the ability to reset Shield Slam with it?

Thanks.

It replaces Devastate.

[Deleted]

Devastator makes Devastate become a passive making it proc on white swings. It still has the same chance to proc SS.

To be honest I seem to like the gameplay with Devastator.

[Deleted]

What impact will kakushan's gauntlets have on devistator? I just picked up these gloves and would hate to have the dependent trait nerfed to the ground. Hats off to all you guys doing the hypothetical testing!

The devastator auto hits dont proc the gauntlets at the moment.