Protection legion Discussion

[kiklion]

Devastator has a chance to reset Shield Slam also, so we have a chance per GCD, plus the chance of our melee swings.

My understanding is that we were talking about the indomitable spec, not devastator. Indomitable is nerfed, devastator is performing better than old indomitable in every way except max health but then you need to take a rotation altering talent.

Cmon guys, humor me. Just someone photoshop me a chart where Indomitable is better for raids by some obscure parameters so I can pick it and not feel bad.

Indomitable is better at preventing spike deaths. It can let your healers use more efficient heals and panic less often saving their CDs for real panics.

[Arbiter]

We do not have more chances to proc SS reset. Before we had one chance per gcd and we still have one chance per gcd. This is why you only used revenge on the last gcd before SS. Further HR was nerfed by 30%. We also lost ultimatum so our free part of vengeance can't happen when not tanking and depending on crit rate/shatter the bones relics, procs much less frequently now. Also SB had its rage cost increased though largely offset by extra rage from tclap (since we use current clap more than old revenge). Indom lost some survivability in exchange for some cleave damage.

I wouldn't say indomitable is dead, barring how devastator is clearly better in nearly all situations, but it was pretty significantly nerfed.

Disregarding the fact that Devastator clearly has a much higher chance at Shield Slam procs, let's pretend like you're using Indom. You're assumption that we had 30% each GCD for a Shield Slam proc only account for the times in which the fight was 100% purely single target and there was absolutely no reason to use Revenge or Thunderclap. Which frankly a 2 button rotation was shitty and something needed to be changed to give the other abilities somewhat a priority even for single target. Well the moment cleave got involved or any other reason to start using those two abilities, our Shield Slam procs decreased. We now get the freedom to use Thunderclap and Revenge which pretty much guarantees 30% Shield Slam procs for every single GCD regardless of situation.

Indom wasn't nerfed. It's just that Devastator was added and was the only thing buffed up to a point to where it doesn't give competitive players much choice in the matter. Being that Devastator gave us the damage we really needed to compete with other tanks, I'd say Indom just needs to be buffed to compensate so that it can give a survivability edge while devastator can continue to give a damage edge as it's currently superior for both. There's a big difference between something being nerfed and another thing being buffed higher. Indom is still the same talent. Only now you can use Revenge and Thunderclap instead of spamming Devastate.

I miss my old Prot Warrior playstyle as well, but people really need to stop pretending like Prot is dead if you don't choose a specific talent. And honestly it's not even that bad. When I saw the talent being added I expected it to be much worse.

EDIT: Now I will say that I'm not sure if the damage increase to abilities as well as the guaranteed 30% proc chance per GCD is enough to offset the damage from using FR (which was only really used during Vengeance as is), but I don't see where survivability was hindered. Ultimatum was removed which was the only thing that could have hindered it, but I'd imagine the free Revenges from dodge/parry are probably much more reliable and doesn't require a talent. Shield Block costs more, but Thunderclap's rage generation should offset that.

[Toybox]

My understanding is that we were talking about the indomitable spec, not devastator. Indomitable is nerfed, devastator is performing better than old indomitable in every way except max health but then you need to take a rotation altering talent.

Ahh, my bad I guess that's what you get for reading half a conversation, haha.

[kiklion]

Arbiter, my understanding was that he said indomitable was dead and we are only talking about indomitable. it's not dead but it was nerfed through SB, ultimatum and HR changes and is basically dead compared to devastator.

Only in M+ was revenge used over devastate commonly and there SS is less required as HR is less required as you recharge a bit of SB between pulls. Beyond that, when would you revenge? Taerar images? Renferral spider adds in the 3 seconds they live? Cenarius IIF add tank (not really applicable mythic). For damage on the hyrja fixated adds when we aren't being attacked anyway?

Indomitable currently has lower SB uptime compared to 7.1 and less rage for IP

[Deleted]

Disregarding the fact that Devastator clearly has a much higher chance at Shield Slam procs, let's pretend like you're using Indom. You're assumption that we had 30% each GCD for a Shield Slam proc only account for the times in which the fight was 100% purely single target and there was absolutely no reason to use Revenge or Thunderclap. Which frankly a 2 button rotation was shitty and something needed to be changed to give the other abilities somewhat a priority even for single target. Well the moment cleave got involved or any other reason to start using those two abilities, our Shield Slam procs decreased. We now get the freedom to use Thunderclap and Revenge which pretty much guarantees 30% Shield Slam procs for every single GCD regardless of situation.

Indom wasn't nerfed. It's just that Devastator was added and was the only thing buffed up to a point to where it doesn't give competitive players much choice in the matter. Being that Devastator gave us the damage we really needed to compete with other tanks, I'd say Indom just needs to be buffed to compensate so that it can give a survivability edge while devastator can continue to give a damage edge as it's currently superior for both. There's a big difference between something being nerfed and another thing being buffed higher. Indom is still the same talent. Only now you can use Revenge and Thunderclap instead of spamming Devastate.

I miss my old Prot Warrior playstyle as well, but people really need to stop pretending like Prot is dead if you don't choose a specific talent. And honestly it's not even that bad. When I saw the talent being added I expected it to be much worse.

EDIT: Now I will say that I'm not sure if the damage increase to abilities as well as the guaranteed 30% proc chance per GCD is enough to offset the damage from using FR (which was only really used during Vengeance as is), but I don't see where survivability was hindered. Ultimatum was removed which was the only thing that could have hindered it, but I'd imagine the free Revenges from dodge/parry are probably much more reliable and doesn't require a talent. Shield Block costs more, but Thunderclap's rage generation should offset that.

FR and Devastator work similarly in that they put a part of your rotation off the GCD. If FR was moved to the Indom row we would be in a similar predicament. Instead they essentially put FR on the GCD and we have the "option" to put devastate off the GCD. And in 99% of the cases(for the state our spec currently is in) is a better choice over having some random % bonuses.

P.S.
This is not how reality is literally, just a good way to visualize it.

[Arbiter]

Arbiter, my understanding was that he said indomitable was dead and we are only talking about indomitable. it's not dead but it was nerfed through SB, ultimatum and HR changes and is basically dead compared to devastator.

Only in M+ was revenge used over devastate commonly and there SS is less required as HR is less required as you recharge a bit of SB between pulls. Beyond that, when would you revenge? Taerar images? Renferral spider adds in the 3 seconds they live? Cenarius IIF add tank (not really applicable mythic). For damage on the hyrja fixated adds when we aren't being attacked anyway?

Indomitable currently has lower SB uptime compared to 7.1 and less rage for IP

I did forget about the HR nerf. That was shitty, but Ultimatum simply got swapped out with dodge/parry Revenge procs and left us room to choose another talent instead giving the ability to choose something like Avatar or RF (or even BSC for big groups).

Definitely lower SB uptime due to HR, but I don't see where there is less rage if Thunderclap is used on CD. It offsets the Shield Block cost and even if you don't want to admit it, there are more SB procs with the new changes in all situations rather than just pure single target and certainly didn't reduce at all in any situation.

The only way rage should be any less is if there's some change I'm not seeing in the patch notes. If anything we should be seeing slightly more rage for slightly more IPs. However, depending on the current Shield Block uptime compared to last patch though I could see Indom spec being slightly nerfed though if that difference is high enough. Perhaps the more Shield Slams offsets some of the HR nerf?

[Leih]

Pretty big nerf to Prot Warrior damage coming. Can't say it's surprising but ouch, 14% on Revenge and TC.

[Deleted]

Pretty big nerf to Prot Warrior damage coming. Can't say it's surprising but ouch, 14% on Revenge and TC.

Seems like a little much, their aoe damage has been truly terrible this expansion so they could have let it be top tier for at least one patch

[ReD-EyeD]

Pretty big nerf to Prot Warrior damage coming. Can't say it's surprising but ouch, 14% on Revenge and TC.

I'm more surprised how we're getting dps nerfs while paladins aren't.

[Leih]

I'm more surprised how we're getting dps nerfs while paladins aren't.

That's true, Prot Pally DPS has been pretty OTT for a while now.

I think they went a little overboard on the Warrior damage this patch but the 5% damage nerf probably would have been enough, the extra 14% revenge+TC is harsh. I don't like the new playstyle, and now the class won't even have the damage to back it up.

[Lorianus]

That's true, Prot Pally DPS has been pretty OTT for a while now.

I think they went a little overboard on the Warrior damage this patch but the 5% damage nerf probably would have been enough, the extra 14% revenge+TC is harsh. I don't like the new playstyle, and now the class won't even have the damage to back it up.

Prot paly specc for dps with seraphim, shitting on their overall survivability, you guys were practically immortal gods while doing even higher dmg.

[DDM]

I think i can't stand that Devastator spec.
Got the weak aura (obviously, as you have to track the gcd) and it feels like i'm waiting most of the time then doing anything.
It feels like the weak aura is either red, or i have to wait for rage or i have to wait for SS/TC/Revenge to come of CD. And if something is of the CD and the weak aura is not red, it seems like it gets 50% of the time red, when i press the ability that is not on CD.

It just feels shit in my opinion. Realy liked prot before but now ... i think i will play it just for the daily hc and if its absolutely needed to get in a group/help in the guild.

[Leih]

Prot paly specc for dps with seraphim, shitting on their overall survivability, you guys were practically immortal gods while doing even higher dmg.

I've seen our prot pally pull pretty high numbers even without it

But like I said, warrior nerf was obviously coming. Don't strawman me acting like I don't feel a nerf was justified. I actually dropped my warrior some weeks ago, so I comment from a third party perspective. I see both Paladins and Prot Warriors towering above me in damage done at the moment.

[ReD-EyeD]

you guys were practically immortal gods

What are you even talking about? Warriors were top tier only first month of the Legion then it were druids and paladins being tier1 overall. Warriors are not useless as someone is saying here, but god damn we are far from "immortal gods".

[Sorshen]

Of all things to nerf... aoe/cleave... wtf.

[ReD-EyeD]

Of all things to nerf... aoe/cleave... wtf.

Don't forget Heroic Throw damage nerf. Very important.

[Deleted]

Prot paly specc for dps with seraphim, shitting on their overall survivability, you guys were practically immortal gods while doing even higher dmg.

And Warriors trade the amount of ~400k ignore pain per extra revenge they use. I don't think any warrior feels like an immortal god after 7.1.5.

[ReD-EyeD]

And Warriors trade the amount of ~400k ignore pain per extra revenge they use. I don't think any warrior feels like an immortal god after 7.1.5.

Not only that, but like 1.2m of hp too.

[Vestig3]

If you know how to handle Devastator build you dont even notice the loss of that 1 million hp.

As for the dmg nerfs, they aint so big tbh we where above all other tanks and now we are slightly under paladins so im not mad about it at all as we could see the nerf coming from a mile away the good thing is that we didnt loose any survivebility.

[Deleted]

If you know how to handle Devastator build you dont even notice the loss of that 1 million hp.

Found someone who doesn't set foot in higher level mythics.