Protection legion Discussion

[Beardyface]

I think we can all agree, that 2nd wind in its current form will not go live.

We said the same about WoD arms. This is why I'm trying to urge everyone in the alpha to post on the official feedback thread. When you design something as bad as the current Heroic Strike, who knows what else you might think is "fine."

Post away:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20742665297

[mindw0rk]

Could you guys stop demanding removal of Second Wind. Its actually a very useful talent for PvP. At least ask for it to be moved in PvP talents

[Valech]

We said the same about WoD arms. This is why I'm trying to urge everyone in the alpha to post on the official feedback thread. When you design something as bad as the current Heroic Strike, who knows what else you might think is "fine."

Post away:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20742665297

There is a diffrence between boring and useless. WoD Arms is the epitome of a snorefest, I give you that, nontheless it did see play a lot, not to say in most if not all cleave situations.
Second wind in its current Alpha iteration would never see play in PvE at all.

Regarding abilities that don´t work, I don´t sweat them yet. Alpha is usually riddled with bugs.

[Beardyface]

There is a diffrence between boring and useless. WoD Arms is the epitome of a snorefest, I give you that, nontheless it did see play a lot, not to say in most if not all cleave situations.
Second wind in its current Alpha iteration would never see play in PvE at all.

Regarding abilities that don´t work, I don´t sweat them yet. Alpha is usually riddled with bugs.

The only reason it saw play was because of some fights where the damage was better. Good damage =/= good design. I could tune whirlwind to do the same amount of damage and remove all your other abilities and people would use it. Doesn't mean it's good design and doesn't mean we shouldn't speak out against it.

Also, these are not bugs we're discussing, they're design choices. Completely different things.

[Murlocbait]

There is a diffrence between boring and useless. WoD Arms is the epitome of a snorefest, I give you that, nontheless it did see play a lot, not to say in most if not all cleave situations.
Second wind in its current Alpha iteration would never see play in PvE at all.

Regarding abilities that don´t work, I don´t sweat them yet. Alpha is usually riddled with bugs.

Worth mentioning that Arms went live in WoD with Slam being a trap talent that was worse for your DPS than taking no talent in that row. WoD Arms launched fundamentally broken in some key ways, and has been half-assed repaired throughout the expac. Legion Prot could easily go the same way - these are the same devs we're dealing with here.

[Valech]

The only reason it saw play was because of some fights where the damage was better. Good damage =/= good design. I could tune whirlwind to do the same amount of damage and remove all your other abilities and people would use it. Doesn't mean it's good design and doesn't mean we shouldn't speak out against it.

Also, these are not bugs we're discussing, they're design choices. Completely different things.

You dont get it. Not only there is a difference between boring and useless but also between broken and useless. Broken things can go online. Bad designs can go online. Boring things can go online. Useless things, at least so obviously useless things like the current 2nd wind cannot go online. If I recall correctly, even slam wasn´t spotted as a trap talent until shortly after release.
for progression, there is no other reason to play a specc but for it to do the most damage out of your choices. That does not make any statement about design. I entirely agree that WoD Arms was and possibly is garbage but it is a fundamentally diffrent garbage to the current alpha´s second wind. And we should totally speak out against it. I just suspect it to be wasted breath, since it cannot be more then a placeholder. And quote me here: If second wind, in its current form, goes live, I will print this statement and eat the paper.

The bugs I was referring to were mentioned by other players. Like Dragnsclaes not affecting IP or giving rage. Yes, entirely diffrent topic. Statement still stands, Bugs are my least concern.

[Breccia]

I think we can all agree, that 2nd wind in its current form will not go live.

This is especially tragic, when you replied to a comparison to WoD Arms.

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If I recall correctly, even slam wasn´t spotted as a trap talent until shortly after release. .

You do not recall correctly. Even I posted specifically about Slam being a DPS loss before the PTR, and I was late to the party.

[Warriorsarri]

Second wind in its current Alpha iteration would never see play in PvE at all.

As it currently stands I'd use SW on almost every fight, it's simply so freaking strong. Half of the AoE damage I've encountered doesn't reset the tick timer, even inside dungeons.

While actively tanking it doesn't have the biggest of effects, but when you're not tanking, and you have something like a bleed on you, or the boss does a cleave'esc attack every X seconds Second Wind can easily heal you back up to full without the healers even having to glance your way.

[Toppy]

Could you guys stop demanding removal of Second Wind. Its actually a very useful talent for PvP. At least ask for it to be moved in PvP talents

How is it useful for PvP?

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As it currently stands I'd use SW on almost every fight, it's simply so freaking strong. Half of the AoE damage I've encountered doesn't reset the tick timer, even inside dungeons.

While actively tanking it doesn't have the biggest of effects, but when you're not tanking, and you have something like a bleed on you, or the boss does a cleave'esc attack every X seconds Second Wind can easily heal you back up to full without the healers even having to glance your way.

To situational. It becomes a must have for fights with aoe that wont break it, entirely and utterly useless for any other. Solo it has 0 use, tanking it has 0 use.

[Beardyface]

Useless things, at least so obviously useless things like the current 2nd wind cannot go online. If I recall correctly, even slam wasn´t spotted as a trap talent until shortly after release.

As noted above, Slam was called out in the Beta long before it went live. Slam was useless. Actually it's more than useless. Second Wind would be useless for Prot, but it wouldn't negatively affect my survivability. Slam is worse than useless, in that it causes me to do lower DPS than if I don't take it. Slam causes me to do lower DPS than if I picked nothing in that talent line at all.

Slam is more than useless and it went live - and it still hasn't been fixed.

My whole point, though, is that almost no one save Yse is posting in the official feedback thread. If enough people post, we may get a response; something may get fixed. Blizz has given us an official avenue for feedback, and if you don't use that, you can't whine when all these things end up on live just the way they are today.

[Toppy]

Sadly I cannot post on the wow forums. I got perma banned for saying the head writer during cata is a bad writer if he thinks Uldum was the best written zone.

Funny thing is, it was a two sentence post in a server forum thread.

[Cybrus]

Late to the thread so mind me if I say something that's already been discussed.

It feels like with how our tier19 set and artifact coincide right now, we're all about them critical blocks. What're we thinking our ideal stat weights are going to be at this time? I'm thinking Mastery > Haste > Crit.

Mastery allows you to block more often during shield block downtime and also gives an increased chance to critical block, thus giving us more chances at rage gain (due to 4 piece) and increased mitigation. Haste allows us to have more up time on shield block and lower GCD, allowing us more rage gain and mitigation for the above reasons.

Pretty much, the impression I'm getting from this is that: Protection warriors will shine in encounters with multiple mobs. If you have 3+ adds on you, you'll have more rage than you possibly know what to do with. If 4-set and Artifact work in CMs (which I'm assuming they will b/c of the nature of how they're changing them), Warriors will probably be the go-to tank for them I'm feeling. Single-target boss encounters will make us cry though, I feel.

Those are my 2 cents so far, bash away.

[Cylunaria]

Late to the thread so mind me if I say something that's already been discussed.

It feels like with how our tier19 set and artifact coincide right now, we're all about them critical blocks. What're we thinking our ideal stat weights are going to be at this time? I'm thinking Mastery > Haste > Crit.

Mastery allows you to block more often during shield block downtime and also gives an increased chance to critical block, thus giving us more chances at rage gain (due to 4 piece) and increased mitigation. Haste allows us to have more up time on shield block and lower GCD, allowing us more rage gain and mitigation for the above reasons.

Pretty much, the impression I'm getting from this is that: Protection warriors will shine in encounters with multiple mobs. If you have 3+ adds on you, you'll have more rage than you possibly know what to do with. If 4-set and Artifact work in CMs (which I'm assuming they will b/c of the nature of how they're changing them), Warriors will probably be the go-to tank for them I'm feeling. Single-target boss encounters will make us cry though, I feel.

Those are my 2 cents so far, bash away.

No, mastery is not going to beat out haste. Haste gives us 100% shield block uptime. Not 90% Not 99%, 100%. There is no such thing as mastery being useful for shield block downtime when there is no shield block downtime. It was all ready the worse stat to increase your block downtime survivability over crit in WoD. After you reach 100% block uptime, sure mastery may be better? I doubt it only because haste will continue to increase rage generation consistently whereas mastery will be RNG.

We'll shine on single target too because each individual ignore pain won't get eaten as fast as if we had multiple things attacking us. Warrior is strong all around right now for their PERSONAL survivability, however they have absolutely no benefit to the raid as a whole other than being the meatiest meat wall.

[Valech]

As it currently stands I'd use SW on almost every fight, it's simply so freaking strong. Half of the AoE damage I've encountered doesn't reset the tick timer, even inside dungeons.

While actively tanking it doesn't have the biggest of effects, but when you're not tanking, and you have something like a bleed on you, or the boss does a cleave'esc attack every X seconds Second Wind can easily heal you back up to full without the healers even having to glance your way.

This would shine a diffrent light on the talent. If dots, aoe and cleave don´t reset the timer I see a few bosses that would allow to specc this.

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How is it useful for PvP?

Being tunneled ---> Apply slow --> jump away -->dance around a pillar for 15 seconds ---> life was regained.

Same reason why Healdroods dance around pillars. to give the hots time to do their work.

[mindw0rk]

How is it useful for PvP?

Got low - heroic leap out of combat, wait for health to regen, get back to the fight. Or enjoy fast regen to full health after killing target. Go watch PvP warriors streams, almost all of them are running with Second Wind

[Cybrus]

No, mastery is not going to beat out haste. Haste gives us 100% shield block uptime. Not 90% Not 99%, 100%. There is no such thing as mastery being useful for shield block downtime when there is no shield block downtime. It was all ready the worse stat to increase your block downtime survivability over crit in WoD. After you reach 100% block uptime, sure mastery may be better? I doubt it only because haste will continue to increase rage generation consistently whereas mastery will be RNG.

I highly doubt we'll get enough haste in any capacity to give us 100% s.block uptime. But if that's the case, then it'll certainly be mandatory that we meet the haste cap, then pour everything into mastery. Even while there is no shield block downtime, mastery still lends an increased chance to critically block regardless.

We'll shine on single target too because each individual ignore pain won't get eaten as fast as if we had multiple things attacking us. Warrior is strong all around right now for their PERSONAL survivability, however they have absolutely no benefit to the raid as a whole other than being the meatiest meat wall.

I know we're no Prot Paladin, but hey, it's something.

[Marok]

I highly doubt we'll get enough haste in any capacity to give us 100% s.block uptime. But if that's the case, then it'll certainly be mandatory that we meet the haste cap, then pour everything into mastery. Even while there is no shield block downtime, mastery still lends an increased chance to critically block regardless.

We need about ~30% haste to get 100% effective SBlock uptime. "Actual" 100% Sblock uptime requires ~37.5% haste. This is with HR and assumes no Shield Slam resets via Dev. Those numbers probably won't be achieveable in the first tier, but later in the xpac they definitely will be.

[Cylunaria]

We need about ~30% haste to get 100% effective SBlock uptime. "Actual" 100% Sblock uptime requires ~37.5% haste. This is with HR and assumes no Shield Slam resets via Dev. Those numbers probably won't be achieveable in the first tier, but later in the xpac they definitely will be.

Enter Into the Fray. Easy 5% pure single, easy meeting hard cap on 3+.

[Moggers1990]

My whole point, though, is that almost no one save Yse is posting in the official feedback thread. If enough people post, we may get a response; something may get fixed. Blizz has given us an official avenue for feedback, and if you don't use that, you can't whine when all these things end up on live just the way they are today.

I posted on the EU forums before they made these official threads for each spec's feedback, so did a few, hopefully they actually do read those like they say they do.
But otherwise i can't post on the US forums, due to not having a US account, unless there's a way of creating a free US account.

But either way, whoever can post on the US forums, please do so. Even just copy pasting what we're saying here, as long as it's relevant. And maybe a post-a-day about Heroic Strike/Second Wind so they get pissed off with us and either remove it or change it.

[Cylunaria]

Just tested the new heroic 5 mans they put up. Really spotty on their balancing I assume. I went from Black Rook hold (Where i would never drop ignore pain even when pulling 2-3 packs at a time, to Halls of Valor where a couple specific mobs would really smash me (Though the wolf boss I solo'd from about 10% to dead without even losing HP. He spawns adds I could kill for VR, on top of there just not being much tank damage). Overall I feel warriors are still in a good spot still, and think they will really shine in progression. Probably gonna test out other tanks tomorrow.

EDIT: If you really care I streamed the 2 dungeons and highlighted them. I'll warn in advance you can hear my keyboard pretty clearly and that my friends and I are pretty obnoxious in comms. I'd probably just mute the vod and skip around to whatever you want to see. Halls of Valor and Black Rook Hold in the vod.