Protection legion Discussion

[Bigbazz]

I don't know if this opinion is shared but the Legion iteration of Protection is in my eyes the worst since Burning Crusade.

Focused Rage - Don't get it, it's like they were forced by knife point to replace Heroic Strike and so they came up with this dumping the damage into Shield Slam. I just don't understand the point of this, Heroic Strike/Cleave was functional and more flexible, and as a spell felt meaty where as focused rage is like a non spell, a non ability.. You press it and there is no visual or audible interaction, your Shield Slam is just doing slightly more damage. They have just offloaded Heroic Strike damage into a super expensive Shield Slam.. Really dislike it.

Thunder Clap - No longer applies deep wounds, no longer do I have the pleasure of smashing Thunder Clap as a non targeted ability to apply to all targets around me. I felt Thunder Clap had served this purpose well and I have no idea why it needed to be changed for the sake of change.

Revenge - Replaces Thunder Clap for applying deep wounds and becomes a full AOE attack.. Why? This was the meaty 1-2 target cleave, when you'd press it and you'd get a boner at the fat crits, now it's just another bland full AOE like they did to Whirlwind. I don't really understand why Prot needed another full AOE ability.

Rage Generation - Now that they have reverted to primarily damage taken rage generation it makes no sense to me that there is still rage consuming active mitigation, would be much better to make Shield Block free and have Ignore Pain (aka Shield Barrier 2.0) be the rage spender. One of the great things they did to Prot previously was make the rage generation primarily active in order to interact with rage consuming active mitigation, which meant the player was solely responsible for his own rage generation and thus the gameplay fed into itself on both damage and mitigation levels.


I dunno maybe people will not agree with me. I've loved Prot in every expansion since WOTLK but Legion to me it feels like a pile of shite.. And I'm sure it will be capable, with some gear and a levelled artifact, but god is it bland and lacking for me now. Hamstring, Intimidating Shout, Mocking Banner, the ability to talent Enraged Regen and Bladestorm.. I really miss this stuff, I'm really disapointed with Prot and maybe I'm alone but I feel they have gone quite a bit backwards from WOD in many ways.

[Breccia]

I don't know if this opinion is shared but the Legion iteration of Protection is in my eyes the worst since Burning Crusade.

Focused Rage

Thunder Clap

Revenge

Rage Generation

Thematically, I have seen a lot of players agree with parts one and four. There is zero way you can justify Rage from damage taken as something a good player can benefit from more than a bad player, either by ilvl or skill. And yes, we're losing a fair number of utility abilities too, including all useful self-heals.

I haven't seen a lot of people upset about the Deep Wounds move from TC to Revenge, and yes I can see it as change for the sake of change, but I don't see it having a major effect on gameplay. At least this way there'll be a touch more skill involved, since Revenge is frontal.

[shyguybman]

RevengeThis was the meaty 1-2 target cleave, when you'd press it and you'd get a boner at the fat crits,

confirmed....

[Bigbazz]

I haven't seen a lot of people upset about the Deep Wounds move from TC to Revenge, and yes I can see it as change for the sake of change, but I don't see it having a major effect on gameplay. At least this way there'll be a touch more skill involved, since Revenge is frontal.

Slight increases in skill are nice if there's a practical gameplay reason for it, but this doesn't really have that. The convenience of Thunder Clap spreading is what made it attractive, the increase in skill required for Revenge application is not large enough to make any real difference other than to be an occasional mild annoyance for something that ultimately didn't need to be changed, it makes no real difference. A lot of the changes seem like change for the sake of change without any real thought put into how they are meant to be positive for the game. But this change is not worth spending time thinking about when there are other more annoying things like rage from damage taken.

The lack of a heal is something that really really annoyed me doing the Artifact quest too, especially given that the quest seems to have bugged out and I had an Army of mobs literally smashing my balls off and having to kite them to India and back just to try to stay alive via Second Wind... Which still lead to my untimely death.. And then they sat there hitting shit into my Vrykil mate and the questline bugged out and I didn't get my Artifact. So most of my testing was on a PVP premade soloing Mogu'shan Vaults.

Of course it's capable, but there are all this little things annoying me at every step where it feels like it's simply gone backwards as a gameplay thing. Reverting to a damage taken model just to cater to bad players who cant generate rage seems horrible to me, when I look at it from the outside that's the only logical reason I can imagine they would take this step back.

[Moggers1990]

I dunno maybe people will not agree with me. I've loved Prot in every expansion since WOTLK but Legion to me it feels like a pile of shite.. And I'm sure it will be capable, with some gear and a levelled artifact, but god is it bland and lacking for me now. Hamstring, Intimidating Shout, Mocking Banner, the ability to talent Enraged Regen and Bladestorm.. I really miss this stuff, I'm really disapointed with Prot and maybe I'm alone but I feel they have gone quite a bit backwards from WOD in many ways.

I completely agree, and with what you say about them changes things just for the sake of change. Prot in WoD is amazing, one of the few well designed classes that actually works and you can very clearly notice a good Warrior from a bad one. They're literally just changing things because it's a new expansion, which pisses me off to no end because well over half the changes have been on things that already work, so they've fucked them up.

Focused Rage - Displayed my hate for this ability too many times now. It's just shit and isn't even on my bars after i waited about 10 seconds to get 3 stacks.

Thunderclap - I agree here as well. It's going to be hard to stop positioning myself so Thunderclap will hit multiple packs/mobs to spread Deep Wounds.

Revenge - Just from doing a few dungeons the range on this to apply Deep Wounds is crap, surprised they haven't just removed Deep Wounds.

Rage Generation - Made a post about this on the forums at the start of Alpha. It was changed to what it is now for a reason, it didn't really work and was awful to play with. Why the fuck would they change it back?
But this causes so many problems. I sometimes go 4-5 seconds without even gaining any rage from damage taken in dungeons at the moment and end up having to use Last Stand or Shield Wall because i can't use my mitigation. I'm dreading doing a fight like Mannoroth where a lot of the time he's not actually hitting you and just casting spells, because you'll get fuck all rage. Not to mention having to save up to taunt, it makes Focused Rage completely obsolete as you can't afford to use it.

I'm with you though, Prot on the Alpha is so disappointing and makes me want to re roll.

[Breccia]

Newest Alpha build is out.
Changes for Prot: Nothing.
Responses to Prot on official Forums: To date, a sum total of nothing.

[Cylunaria]

I completely agree, and with what you say about them changes things just for the sake of change. Prot in WoD is amazing, one of the few well designed classes that actually works and you can very clearly notice a good Warrior from a bad one. They're literally just changing things because it's a new expansion, which pisses me off to no end because well over half the changes have been on things that already work, so they've fucked them up.

Focused Rage - Displayed my hate for this ability too many times now. It's just shit and isn't even on my bars after i waited about 10 seconds to get 3 stacks.

Thunderclap - I agree here as well. It's going to be hard to stop positioning myself so Thunderclap will hit multiple packs/mobs to spread Deep Wounds.

Revenge - Just from doing a few dungeons the range on this to apply Deep Wounds is crap, surprised they haven't just removed Deep Wounds.

Rage Generation - Made a post about this on the forums at the start of Alpha. It was changed to what it is now for a reason, it didn't really work and was awful to play with. Why the fuck would they change it back?
But this causes so many problems. I sometimes go 4-5 seconds without even gaining any rage from damage taken in dungeons at the moment and end up having to use Last Stand or Shield Wall because i can't use my mitigation. I'm dreading doing a fight like Mannoroth where a lot of the time he's not actually hitting you and just casting spells, because you'll get fuck all rage. Not to mention having to save up to taunt, it makes Focused Rage completely obsolete as you can't afford to use it.

I'm with you though, Prot on the Alpha is so disappointing and makes me want to re roll.

I'm gonna kinda go point by point here because I think if you actually come into the alpha without all ready having a negative attitude about it, it feels a lot better (THIS IS MY OPINION, OBVIOUSLY AND SHOULD BE TAKEN AS SUCH).

Focused Rage: Yeah it definitely feels lackluster. Does it feel any worse than heroic strike actually felt? No. It's the same shit you just don't see it as a separate strike. It's a 30 rage offensive dump that does fuck-all damage, just like heroic strike. Why this negatively impacts you is beyond me in fact since we talk about liking to see big meaty numbers, do you not enjoy seeing bigger shield slams instead? I assume the 10 seconds to get to 3 stacks is hyperbole and just you venting, rage generation is not nearly that bad (I'll get to that point below).

Thunderclap: So instead of positioning yourself for TC doing damage you just won't even care if it misses, simply because it doesn't apply deep wounds? It's still worth using AoE for damage, snap threat, and picking stuff up. Why you nit pick deep wounds moving is beyond me. You position for TC to hit, not for deep wounds.

Revenge: Um it still hits pretty hard even single target. Not as hard as shield slam, but harder than anything else. I disagree on the range, you can revenge mobs pretty far out to get the deep wounds on them (Almost like the same range as TC!). Sure it's a cone now, but unless you were just letting mobs sit on your ass instead of your face it'll make no difference for deep wounds application. Revenge is more important for damage now on AoE than it used to be, and roughly the same single target.

Rage generation: I'm actually really enjoying it currently. If you are good at predicting the incoming damage it pays off. Shield slam and revenge still generate rage (I feel like SS generates too much when I get good resets). Hit your resets, get shield slam up more. your rage generation is still active. The amount you get from taking damage over the course of a fight if you are playing properly will be lower than what you generate with SS/RV. I have also never felt like my rage generated via damage I take has been disproportional, when I get hit hard I get fuck tons of rage. The only thing I do not like currently is how sporadic our artifact trait (Dragon Scales) is that gives us 30 rage. It can potentially proc 0 times in a 5 minute fight and I wonder why I even have it. Other times I'll get it 7-8 times in a 3 minute fight and have a surplus of rage to dump off. I think they need to adjust that. Looking through logs I found that to be a huge problem to try and compare my consistency and skill between pulls, Or identifying problems where I might need to pool rage.

I think prot is better now than in WoD. I am making more decisions on Alpha that have an effect on my survival than on live. It feels faster too, because we get to stack haste and I love haste. The way haste benefits our abilties and GCD make the build feel very fluid and action packed. Though I do not like how slow I feel without haste (I'm at 34% just sitting around on alpha, I assume I'll probably be at around 25% or so come raid time in launch which I am comfortable with). With more haste comes more rage too, which means I can use all these abilities more, even though I may be taking less damage and generating less rage in that way.

EDIT: One last thing that I have seen NO ONE doing. INTERCEPT AROUND. If you are not worried about very specific boss positioning USE INTECEPT. There is no cooldown on the rage generation it provides. 20 rage per charge. I always lead into a pull by intercepting 2 of my allies and leaping in (3 allies if I have double time). Then if the boss does not require positioning for specific abilities, use intercept on allies if you aren't using it to grab adds. On a lot of bosses you can even intercept melee if the hit box is big enough to work with.

[Tirilka]

Newest Alpha build is out.
Changes for Prot: Nothing.
Responses to Prot on official Forums: To date, a sum total of nothing.

Of course not, there's no time. Gotta revisit half of Death Knight talents... again. Because the last 2-3 times weren't enough, they obviously need more attention.

[Ashenia]

I will wait for full information to post.. the same post again. Plus additional query from people about Rage from Damage taken, which for me right now after testing all bosses I can say it is quite fine. It's not ideal, but not like traits which are completely screwed up or useless.

[Beardyface]

Newest Alpha build is out.
Changes for Prot: Nothing.
Responses to Prot on official Forums: To date, a sum total of nothing.

Where are you seeing patch notes? I don't see anything yet.

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I will wait for full information to post.. the same post again. Plus additional query from people about Rage from Damage taken, which for me right now after testing all bosses I can say it is quite fine. It's not ideal, but not like traits which are completely screwed up or useless.

If you just copy/pasted the ENTIRE previous feedback thread into the new one I would love you forever.

[Ashenia]

Where are you seeing patch notes? I don't see anything yet.

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If you just copy/pasted the ENTIRE previous feedback thread into the new one I would love you forever.

I do not know if I would enjoy the beardy man love

As for answers from Dev's we did have one today about our Rage Generation to Grafarion on twitter. Guess once a year we can get some info! As for rage generation itself guys, it doesn't look that bad anymore. If you are spec into Dragon Scales which gives you 30 rage per proc, charge (leap/charge if needed) and don't waste your rage (if more Haste oriented build is taken without Vengeance (-5 rage for IP)) on FR then you should be fairly fine. It doesn't jump to 80% or full asap, of course it is slowly building up but when you do the start properly you can manage SB up when required and IP most of the time. I don't think I ever was waiting for rage to make sure I can pop desperately needed IP.

You got many options to go for:
- Ultimatum+Vengeance which is 5 less rage to cast IP and sometimes even way more taking into account proc of FR
- Into the Fray to speed up the SS/Rev cd's
- Dragon Scales proc's gives you 30 rage
- There are also Double Time and Best Served Cold but they are imo talents for desperate people

[Breccia]

Where are you seeing patch notes? I don't see anything yet.

Going solely on blue posts that mention other classes specifically, and not ours. If there are changes, fine, but apparently it's not worth warning us about them.

[Beardyface]

Going solely on blue posts that mention other classes specifically, and not ours. If there are changes, fine, but apparently it's not worth warning us about them.

Oh, gotcha. I usually wait for the datamining. There could be something small in there. I'll take anything at this point.

[Breccia]

Oh, gotcha. I usually wait for the datamining.

Fair enough, but if they do something significant for us (removing Rage from damage taken) while not announcing it, while making a scene about reorganizing Death Knight talents again, that'll even further demonstrate their attention paid to our spec.

[Lundarch]

Rage generation on current build is absolutely insane, obviously it's bugged somehow. Sitting at 130 rage full time spamming ignore pain and focused rage trying to spend it and staying capped.

[Beardyface]

Rage generation on current build is absolutely insane, obviously it's bugged somehow. Sitting at 130 rage full time spamming ignore pain and focused rage trying to spend it and staying capped.

Seems like Ignore Pain is bugged. It costs zero rage at the moment.

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As for rage from damage taken, I've asked them on twitter if their formula is calculated before or after dodge/parry/absorbs/shields, etc. For those that didn't see the tweet, the formula is:

RageGained = 50 * DamageTaken / MaxHealth

Assuming this is calculated before dodge/parry/absorbs/shields, this should be acceptable.

But it makes me wonder if it wouldn't be easier to just do this:

Remove the Rage Cost from Shield Block.
Shield Block still has 2 charges and same duration/cooldown.
When Shield Block is active, blocking an attack causes you to generate RageGained = x * DamageTaken / MaxHealth.

This would give us some control over rage gain, and would guarantee even rage gain while shield block was up. As far as I know, if you have Ignore Pain, Shield Wall and a Priest Bubble up while Shield Block is active, you still block the attack, you just don't take any damage from it instead of taking 70% damage (or 40% if it's a crit block)- in other words, as long as Shield Block is active and you are getting hit, you're gaining rage. Tweak the numbers so that crit blocks give you slightly more rage and you could use Netharion's Fury defensively or offensively, and have to choose which to do.

If they're insistent on bringing back this outdated mechanic, at least give us some control over it.

[Breccia]

Remove the Rage Cost from Shield Block.
Shield Block still has 2 charges and same duration/cooldown.
When Shield Block is active, blocking an attack causes you to generate RageGained = x * DamageTaken / MaxHealth.

I'm not sure I like this. In fact, I think it's worse. We'll gain less Rage with higher Crit/ilvl, and none from magic or other unblockable attacks. Plus we'd be swimming in Rage for trash packs, but lacking for boss fights.

If you really want control over Rage, add Rage to active abilities. Such as Revenge and Shield Slam. Like we have now.

[Deleted]

EDIT: One last thing that I have seen NO ONE doing. INTERCEPT AROUND. If you are not worried about very specific boss positioning USE INTECEPT. There is no cooldown on the rage generation it provides. 20 rage per charge. I always lead into a pull by intercepting 2 of my allies and leaping in (3 allies if I have double time). Then if the boss does not require positioning for specific abilities, use intercept on allies if you aren't using it to grab adds. On a lot of bosses you can even intercept melee if the hit box is big enough to work with.

i imagine macros to intercept targetoftarget/nearestally/theothertank will become popular :P

Though i'm in two minds about intervening the other tank. we get that artifact trait that lets us take 3 hits at 20% off for them, which could help with rage when offtanking and could fill gaps in their mitigation uptime, but on the other hand those hits will probably apply any debuffs the boss has to us.

[Deleted]

As for rage from damage taken, I've asked them on twitter if their formula is calculated before or after dodge/parry/absorbs/shields, etc. For those that didn't see the tweet, the formula is:

RageGained = 50 * DamageTaken / MaxHealth

Assuming this is calculated before dodge/parry/absorbs/shields, this should be acceptable.

How can rage generation that scales down as gear increases (because the divisor, MaxHealth, increases with gear) ever be considered "acceptable"? It's terrible and stupid.

[Beardyface]

How can rage generation that scales down as gear increases (because the divisor, MaxHealth, increases with gear) ever be considered "acceptable"? It's terrible and stupid.

The key sentence there is the last one.

If it's calculated before mitigation/avoidance/shields, it will be fine, as both damage taken and max health go up over the expansion. If it's calculated after, there will be a huge problem.

I'm not saying this is the best solution. The whole rage gained from damage taken idea was scrapped 5+ years ago for a reason - it's horrible. I'm just saying that if they do this right, we won't be horribly broken.

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I'm not sure I like this. In fact, I think it's worse. We'll gain less Rage with higher Crit/ilvl, and none from magic or other unblockable attacks. Plus we'd be swimming in Rage for trash packs, but lacking for boss fights.

If you really want control over Rage, add Rage to active abilities. Such as Revenge and Shield Slam. Like we have now.

It's possible I'm reading it wrong, but it looks like Neltharion's Fury turns all incoming damage into crit blocks. I also mentioned in the original post that crit blocks should generate slightly more rage than regular blocks, which would solve the scaling issue (assuming they get the tuning right). They would also probably need to re-tune the rage gained from Spell Reflect in our artifact tree.

Clearly, the whole rage gained from damage taken idea is stupid, and what's on live is far better, but they seem stuck on this idea and they refuse to talk to us about it.

Also, slightly off-topic, doesn't rage gained from damage taken fit the Guardian Druid better than the Warrior? We gain rage from blocking, dodging and parrying (hopefully), which are things that would make me happy in a battle, not angry. Bears get hit in the face all day in this game. Ever hit a bear in the face? They get ANGRY.