Arms Legion Discussion

[Bullettime]

I don't agree with this.

Charge is meant to be an engagement ability, not one you use rotationally for rage; in fact that's anti-thesis to it's point as mobility (see: issue currently plaguing Demon Hunters in which their mobility is being used for DPS, which is a mechanic I heavily disagree with, as it removes their reactionary tools, mobility, in favor of extra damage).

Minimum ranges aren't archaic at all, and the issue isn't even with Charge, it's just symptomatic of a larger problem: Gaps in the rotation which allow/encourage skipping GCDs in favor of Charge. This is exactly why the multi-target restriction was added in WoD (terrible decision) rather than simply fixing the rotation. If the rotation were fixed to favor filling GCDs over generating the extra rage, it wouldn't be a problem and Charge would be returned to it's niche.

Titan's Grip is meant to give Fury unique flavor, and while removing it might make Arms seem more noteworthy by comparison, similar to the last case, it's an inelegant solution to the actual problem: Arms doesn't have it's own defining characteristic.

More than anything this is largely an aesthetic issue, which is honestly easy to fix; it just requires the ambition and creativity to do so. I was in favor of simply increasing the scale of the Arms artifact to better differentiate it from other 2h weapons, making it akin to a Mighty Weapon from D3 - also to echo the Barbarian theme, but that certainly isn't the only way to go about it. At any rate, I don't believe that hurting one spec is the solution to making another feel better; that just sticks you with the opposite problem of Fury lacking identity.

I think one of the main problems is that, at its core, Arms is pretty much bland in regards to what it can be. Fury at least lets you play up the raging barbarian/berserker vibe and Protection has the stalwart defender theme. The heavy armor of the Warrior class also makes it to where Arms has to be more William Wallace than blademaster/Master Yi.

Arms just ends up being this weird amalgamation of "brutal strikes" without a general direction. They're trying to make that direction about vulnerabilities and Colossus Smash but in the process are making the spec fully dependent on Colossus Smash, It's at the point where you're just fishing for procs at the cost of everything else and go from crap to god based on if that stupid debuff is up. But moving emphasis away from the debuff pretty much pulls from the only thing that makes Arms even remotely unique.

I agree that removing Titan's Grip won't fix this at all.

I know you're well aware of the problems, but more just stating for discussion sake.

[Archimtiros]

Arms just ends up being this weird amalgamation of "brutal strikes" without a general direction... I know you're well aware of the problems, but more just stating for discussion sake.

I agree, and I've brought this up myself numerous times in the past. They first tried it with the"slow heavy hits" concept, which simply doesn't work. It doesn't translate aesthetically, and due to balance, the damage isn't all that different from any other class with high burst damage abilities.

Aesthetics are the key to selling class fantasy. Warriors have already been at a disadvantage in this area due to the lack of special spell effects attached to their attacks, but it's even worse for Arms as they don't have any unique differential. Rogues and Hunters have had this problem as well, to a degree, which is something that Outlaw and Melee-Survival are specifically meant to address.

[ATZenith]

To anyone in the beta, is Arms still as clunky/bad as live?

[caervek]

To anyone in the beta, is Arms still as clunky/bad as live?

It's as clunky or as simple as you build it. If you take Titanic Might and Mortal Combo then the rotation is basically CS>MS>Slam and you use dmg boosters as appropriate or on CD (which is my fav build). Or if you pick Overpower, Stormbolt and Rend you will have a super clunky cluster**** (of course the are middle ground builds).

[Kirbydude65]

I agree, and I've brought this up myself numerous times in the past. They first tried it with the"slow heavy hits" concept, which simply doesn't work. It doesn't translate aesthetically, and due to balance, the damage isn't all that different from any other class with high burst damage abilities.

Aesthetics are the key to selling class fantasy. Warriors have already been at a disadvantage in this area due to the lack of special spell effects attached to their attacks, but it's even worse for Arms as they don't have any unique differential. Rogues and Hunters have had this problem as well, to a degree, which is something that Outlaw and Melee-Survival are specifically meant to address.

I think if they played on the "Weapon Master" Fantasy more than the "Decisive Strike" fantasy, they'd do a much better job with Arms' Aesthetics. Having random weapons in our arsenal pulled out on key attacks would be kind of cool. As much as it pains me to say it (Cause I really really hate this emo kid), something like Cloud's Omnislash from Advent Children



Would be a much better fantasy.

[Toppy]

I think if they played on the "Weapon Master" Fantasy more than the "Decisive Strike" fantasy, they'd do a much better job with Arms' Aesthetics. Having random weapons in our arsenal pulled out on key attacks would be kind of cool. As much as it pains me to say it (Cause I really really hate this emo kid), something like Cloud's Omnislash from Advent Children



Would be a much better fantasy.

Well "weapons master" was the class fantasy originally. And a lot of people always saw arms as the "blademaster" spec. Dont know why they didnt just focus on that since it would have left the most people happy and given arms a theme.

[Kirbydude65]

Well "weapons master" was the class fantasy originally. And a lot of people always saw arms as the "blademaster" spec. Dont know why they didnt just focus on that since it would have left the most people happy and given arms a theme.

I was unbelievably salty in WotLK when Mages got Mirror Image.

[Bullettime]

Well "weapons master" was the class fantasy originally. And a lot of people always saw arms as the "blademaster" spec. Dont know why they didnt just focus on that since it would have left the most people happy and given arms a theme.

And sadly they didn't do anything blade masterish with it aside from bladestorm. I was hoping Arms would have been the next one to see a pseudo overhaul, like Combat to Outlaw, and make it more of a samurai/blademaster mix but alas.

[Calith-]

I think if they played on the "Weapon Master" Fantasy more than the "Decisive Strike" fantasy, they'd do a much better job with Arms' Aesthetics. Having random weapons in our arsenal pulled out on key attacks would be kind of cool. As much as it pains me to say it (Cause I really really hate this emo kid), something like Cloud's Omnislash from Advent Children

Would be a much better fantasy.

They tried pulling some swords out of the air with the updated Bladestorm animation but that looked ridiculous. Also pulling out more weapons seems to have become a Deathknight thing. Not just Dancing Rune Weapon, but as a Frost Artifact Trait too, and I honestly don't think Arms needs more mystical flair.

I do think one of the small upsides with Arms fantasy in Legion is how it's the only spec with stances. Implementation aside, I think Blizzard should focus on things like that to make the Arms aesthetic unique and to cement Arms as the spec of combat expertise and adaptability. There's also other Warrior imagery that could be used like banners or warhorns.

[Bullettime]

They tried pulling some swords out of the air with the updated Bladestorm animation but that looked ridiculous. Also pulling out more weapons seems to have become a Deathknight thing. Not just Dancing Rune Weapon, but as a Frost Artifact Trait too, and I honestly don't think Arms needs more mystical flair.

I do think one of the small upsides with Arms fantasy in Legion is how it's the only spec with stances. Implementation aside, I think Blizzard should focus on things like that to make the Arms aesthetic unique and to cement Arms as the spec of combat expertise and adaptability. There's also other Warrior imagery that could be used like banners or warhorns.

There was also some potential with the artifact to add some flash and flair to things but they went with pretty boring and lowkey shadow theme/skills. A wind imbued sword that granted some blademaster style skills would have been fantastic.

[Archimtiros]

Having random weapons in our arsenal pulled out on key attacks would be kind of cool.

I actually said the same awhile back, although it would require significant overhaul of not only the class but mechanics as well.

[Teaon]

well blademaster back in warcraft 3 was an agility hero, with mirror image, windwalk, crit and bladestorm

its a complete overhaul to arms if they wanted to push blademaster, but having more agility? i dont think blizzard like this idea, and i doubt they would be wearing plate, plate with agility stats is interesting, but doesn't make sense.

though i like the concept, a swift warrior that strike fast and critical, i feel that this is a rogue concept

[Bullettime]

well blademaster back in warcraft 3 was an agility hero, with mirror image, windwalk, crit and bladestorm

its a complete overhaul to arms if they wanted to push blademaster, but having more agility? i dont think blizzard like this idea, and i doubt they would be wearing plate, plate with agility stats is interesting, but doesn't make sense.

though i like the concept, a swift warrior that strike fast and critical, i feel that this is a rogue concept

The point is more that there were at least some concepts they could have pulled from the blademaster, along with having inspiration to pull from in things like samurai from rl and the FF series. Instead, they keep trying to make the whole William Wallace swinging around a claymore work, but won't devote the necessary attention to it, along with the concept of slow massive strikes being something easier to work into an ARPG than an MMO.

[Dug]

Gotta say I'm not max level yet but at 103 already and I'm bored to death with Arms now. It's just not fun, feels clunky and you do pitiful damage if you don't have CS on the target. There doesn't seem to be any sort of rhyme or reason to the spec its use CS/MS and spam Slam. If you specced into Overpower you have a slight burst of interest and then back to the same 2 button rotation.

Going to try and go for my fury swords and give that a try. I know its beta but man is this iteration boring. Makes more sense thematically compared to WoD though so at least there's that.

[Toppy]

Gotta say I'm not max level yet but at 103 already and I'm bored to death with Arms now. It's just not fun, feels clunky and you do pitiful damage if you don't have CS on the target. There doesn't seem to be any sort of rhyme or reason to the spec its use CS/MS and spam Slam. If you specced into Overpower you have a slight burst of interest and then back to the same 2 button rotation.

Going to try and go for my fury swords and give that a try. I know its beta but man is this iteration boring. Makes more sense thematically compared to WoD though so at least there's that.

Its here to stay according to celestalon.

- - - Updated - - -

Interesting to note that currently, MM hunter has what is essentially the arms spec rotation. Only its works a lot better.

How it works is, currently one of their best talents is "patient sniper" which causes their marked targets to take 150% extra damage from aimed shot and arcane shot. You get to mark a target by arcane shot procs, essentially its like proccing for C-smash. The ability that causes the mark does a fair amount of damage.

tl;dr auto shots cause arcane shot procs that let you use a c-smash like ability that increases damage done by your main rotation abilities.

The thing is, the marksman rotation flows rather easily. Theres little waiting around. Arcane shot procs often. All your abilities matter since your main resource generator is tied to your "c-smash" proc, which you then use to jam a lot of resource spenders into.

Its not the best rotation, and old MM was, arguably, better. But when I was trying the MM on beta all I could think was "Wait, this is like arms without the waiting around"

[Dug]

Its here to stay according to celestalon.

- - - Updated - - -

Interesting to note that currently, MM hunter has what is essentially the arms spec rotation. Only its works a lot better.

How it works is, currently one of their best talents is "patient sniper" which causes their marked targets to take 150% extra damage from aimed shot and arcane shot. You get to mark a target by arcane shot procs, essentially its like proccing for C-smash. The ability that causes the mark does a fair amount of damage.

tl;dr auto shots cause arcane shot procs that let you use a c-smash like ability that increases damage done by your main rotation abilities.

The thing is, the marksman rotation flows rather easily. Theres little waiting around. Arcane shot procs often. All your abilities matter since your main resource generator is tied to your "c-smash" proc, which you then use to jam a lot of resource spenders into.

Its not the best rotation, and old MM was, arguably, better. But when I was trying the MM on beta all I could think was "Wait, this is like arms without the waiting around"

If it flowed better I for sure wouldn't have as big of gripes with it but still at the end of the day its not interesting no matter how fluid and fast it flows.

Also I don't know if its some weird tuning thing that needs to be worked on but I feel like I'm always at 100 rage no matter what. Like rage management isn't even a thing I worry about anymore even with spamming slam.

[Toppy]

If it flowed better I for sure wouldn't have as big of gripes with it but still at the end of the day its not interesting no matter how fluid and fast it flows.

Also I don't know if its some weird tuning thing that needs to be worked on but I feel like I'm always at 100 rage no matter what. Like rage management isn't even a thing I worry about anymore even with spamming slam.

True, the MM still has a fair few issues. Point is that its very very similar to arms without the waiting around.

And how do you stay at max rage? Like, how is that even possible since that currently, the rotation is nothing but slam spam with a single mortal strike after each C-smash?

[Dug]

True, the MM still has a fair few issues. Point is that its very very similar to arms without the waiting around.

And how do you stay at max rage? Like, how is that even possible since that currently, the rotation is nothing but slam spam with a single mortal strike after each C-smash?

Well not "max". "High rage" would have been the better term. I'll need to test it out a bit more but I'm always around 80~ rage that dips a bit with Slam spam and then spikes back up right after MS. I may be missing some type of interaction MS has with rage generation or if Auto attacks just generate that much rage now. Though there are times I'm at 100 rage for a bit even if I'm using everything on CD.

Suppose being at high rage isn't an issue per say.. the rage feels normal once execute range comes around but I just feel like its abnormally high in comparison to WoD.

[Maltore]

I feel like MS just needs some sort of interaction with the rotation other than damage. Something to encourage you to weave in MS to break up the slam spam. Either add MS to the Tactician passive, or maybe using MS buffs your Tactician proc chance.

I think MS is the only rotational ability across Fury and Arms that doesn't have a rotational interaction with other abilities. That feels off to me.

[Justpassing]

I think Legion Arms is outstanding in one regard: How do we take the concept of "a big guy swinging a big weapon" and fuck it up as much as possible?