Arms Legion Discussion

[Kaljurei]

Not really true. I haven't run all the numbers yet, but it's more likely that you'll still prioritize Slam over Execute due to Trauma and its more predictable rage cost.

The problem with Execute outside CS is that you'll never end up with positive rage; rage conversion means you'll always spend your maximum amount, so you might use a 10 rage Execute and then a 20 rage Execute, but you'll never build up to 40 rage Executes - much less be able to pool 2-3 GCD's worth for CS.

MS will still only be prioritized if you have In for the Kill (which frankly you always should, as the other two talents are shit), and/or the Legendary Gloves.

Well I'll wait for the numbers then, but it just seems counter intuitive if we use anything on rage other than Execute during an Execute phase. Maybe it's just me.

I agree that spamming Execute outside of CS is sort of counter productive because when Tactician procs you'll have to wait until you have pooled rage for CS, but I suppose we could do something else if the math shows Slam usage on rage outside of a CS window is more beneficial.

I'd have thought Mortal Combo would have been substantially better compared to In for the Kill now though due to the Tactician change. Also how does MS factor in for Legendary gloves in Execute phase. It would still be detrimental if we take Trauma.

[Archimtiros]

Well I'll wait for the numbers then, but it just seems counter intuitive if we use anything on rage other than Execute during an Execute phase. Maybe it's just me.

I agree that spamming Execute outside of CS is sort of counter productive because when Tactician procs you'll have to wait until you have pooled rage for CS, but I suppose we could do something else if the math shows Slam usage on rage outside of a CS window is more beneficial.

I'd have thought Mortal Combo would have been substantially better compared to In for the Kill now though due to the Tactician change. Also how does MS factor in for Legendary gloves in Execute phase. It would still be detrimental if we take Trauma.

It's absolutely counter intuitive, and I think we should prioritize Execute more, but whats intuitive is rarely what is best (which is a primary complaint I have with WoW design for the last few years).

Mortal Combo allows you to use 2 MS, but what's the gain in that? Due to the change, every ability used has an equal chance of proccing Tactician - 0.65% of rage. While abilities have differing rage costs which means a slightly higher or lower chance to proc during that one GCD, it's important to look at the big picture. Arms isn't a completely GCD locked spec, and rage is often a bigger factor, especially where CS comes in.

With the Legendary Gloves, Mortal Combo increases greatly, as we then have a 13% chance for an effective 5 rage cost, but the main draw of Mortal Strike is in it's synergy with Precise Strikes/Shattered Defenses, and Mortal Combo doesn't do anything to address that. Meanwhile, In for the Kill noticeably improves the Execute rotation as a whole, doubly so with the Legendary Gloves.

Finally, while Trauma doesn't do anything specific for Tactician, that isn't the only aspect of the spec, and it really just doesn't have a lot of competition. Deadly Calm is definitely strong but it's pretty circumstantial, in that it's only really useful once during the Execute phase, whereas Trauma adds a noticeable amount of consistent damage.

[Blubzqt]

Hey guys,

was playing fury on beta so far and collected some raw artifact power. Could you give me a heads up on the currently best choice for talents(if it even exists) and the best way to skill the Arms Artifact?
Thanks in advance!

[Artunias]

Mortal Combo is better because of the Tactician change, but it's still not that amazing. With the Legendary Gloves it could probably be a lot better, but hard to say. In for the Kill is pretty big in Execute phase, and will also benefit from the Legendary Gloves (I'm assuming so anyway)

Also, from the Beta thread for Arch. This is probably a useless discussion as it could all easily change with tuning. But Titanic Might still seems like mostly a trap talent (though this might be more because Trauma is retarded OP) I can definitely see the argument on 2 targets for a Sweeping Strikes/Titanic Might/Opp Strikes build. But even at only 3 targets Trauma just seemed too good + full strength CS burst.

[Kaljurei]

It's absolutely counter intuitive, and I think we should prioritize Execute more, but whats intuitive is rarely what is best (which is a primary complaint I have with WoW design for the last few years).

Mortal Combo allows you to use 2 MS, but what's the gain in that? Due to the change, every ability used has an equal chance of proccing Tactician - 0.65% of rage. While abilities have differing rage costs which means a slightly higher or lower chance to proc during that one GCD, it's important to look at the big picture. Arms isn't a completely GCD locked spec, and rage is often a bigger factor, especially where CS comes in.

With the Legendary Gloves, Mortal Combo increases greatly, as we then have a 13% chance for an effective 5 rage cost, but the main draw of Mortal Strike is in it's synergy with Precise Strikes/Shattered Defenses, and Mortal Combo doesn't do anything to address that. Meanwhile, In for the Kill noticeably improves the Execute rotation as a whole, doubly so with the Legendary Gloves.

Finally, while Trauma doesn't do anything specific for Tactician, that isn't the only aspect of the spec, and it really just doesn't have a lot of competition. Deadly Calm is definitely strong but it's pretty circumstantial, in that it's only really useful once during the Execute phase, whereas Trauma adds a noticeable amount of consistent damage.

Well yes, I was focusing more on the per gcd chance to proc Tactician rather than looking at the gameplay as a whole. Makes sense.

My Trauma point was merely a hypothetical scenario where if we took Mortal Combo with legendary gloves and how it would compete with Slam when we take Trauma.

How does this work exactly - MS with legendary gloves and In for the Kill at sub 20% - 20 rage spent, 15 rage refunded, 40 rage generated = 45 rage generated? Is that how it works? Also how exactly is the rage spent and refunded i.e is it like, we spend 20 rage, and then we generate 15 rage plus 40 rage?

[Archimtiros]

Well yes, I was focusing more on the per gcd chance to proc Tactician rather than looking at the gameplay as a whole. Makes sense.

My Trauma point was merely a hypothetical scenario where if we took Mortal Combo with legendary gloves and how it would compete with Slam when we take Trauma.

How does this work exactly - MS with legendary gloves and In for the Kill at sub 20% - 20 rage spent, 15 rage refunded, 40 rage generated = 45 rage generated? Is that how it works? Also how exactly is the rage spent and refunded i.e is it like, we spend 20 rage, and then we generate 15 rage plus 40 rage?

You spend 20, then gain 55 for a net change of +35 rage. Even though it comes out rage positive, you're still unable to use Mortal Strike if you have less than 20 rage, which is a major detriment against simply spamming Execute.

[Deleted]

So I tested new change to Tactician on max lvl realm with rank 3 Exploit the Weakness (Tactician's chance to trigger is increased as if you spent 30% more Rage), and I still got periods of 20-30 seconds without CS reset. So I think this percentage of 0.65 is kinda low, cuz we will start expansion without this perk, and for God knows how long before we get to rank 6 which is 60%. I don't have an exact number for Dauntless, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't effect Tactician, cuz it seemed the same with or without it.

[Kaljurei]

You spend 20, then gain 55 for a net change of +35 rage. Even though it comes out rage positive, you're still unable to use Mortal Strike if you have less than 20 rage, which is a major detriment against simply spamming Execute.

Thanks but the reason I was asking to see how the mechanic works with respect to Tactician i.e if it simply reduced the rage cost instead of refunding it, Tactician would simply not work properly.

So I tested new change to Tactician on max lvl realm with rank 3 Exploit the Weakness (Tactician's chance to trigger is increased as if you spent 30% more Rage), and I still got periods of 20-30 seconds without CS reset. So I think this percentage of 0.65 is kinda low, cuz we will start expansion without this perk, and for God knows how long before we get to rank 6 which is 60%. I don't have an exact number for Dauntless, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't effect Tactician, cuz it seemed the same with or without it.

*shrugs* RNG is RNG, and tuning is not done yet.

As for Dauntless not affecting Tactician, that is good news, hope to see additional confirmation from others.

[Khelon]

@Archimtiros

Did you test if the new tactician takes the original rage cost (before precise strike, dauntless & deadly calm) of abilities?

[Archimtiros]

Mortal Combo is better because of the Tactician change, but it's still not that amazing. With the Legendary Gloves it could probably be a lot better, but hard to say. In for the Kill is pretty big in Execute phase, and will also benefit from the Legendary Gloves (I'm assuming so anyway)

It does, see my previous comment.

Also, from the Beta thread for Arch. This is probably a useless discussion as it could all easily change with tuning. But Titanic Might still seems like mostly a trap talent (though this might be more because Trauma is retarded OP) I can definitely see the argument on 2 targets for a Sweeping Strikes/Titanic Might/Opp Strikes build. But even at only 3 targets Trauma just seemed too good + full strength CS burst.

Well the point wasn't whether it was stronger or not, that's largely a matter of circumstance. The point was that the previous higher chance to proc Tactician on multiple targets with Whirlwind was the only thing propping Titanic Might up, and without it's that much harder to find any use for it period.


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@Archimtiros

Did you test if the new tactician takes the original rage cost (before precise strike, dauntless & deadly calm) of abilities?

Na, that's going to take some in depth testing, or digging through spell data. I'm willing to bet that it uses the base cost though.

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Thanks but the reason I was asking to see how the mechanic works with respect to Tactician i.e if it simply reduced the rage cost instead of refunding it, Tactician would simply not work properly.

Well I was correcting you, because you said "20 rage spent, 15 rage refunded, 40 rage generated = 45 rage generated", which is mistaken, it's 35 rage generated (-20+15+40 = 35 as opposed to 20-15+40 = 45). As I detailed by explaining the step by step process, it refunds rage and the mechanic has no bearing on Tactician.

[MrMonstrosity]

Does the Tactician change make Archavon's Heavy Hand more attractive than Ayala's Stone Heart now?

[Kaljurei]

Well I was correcting you, because you said "20 rage spent, 15 rage refunded, 40 rage generated = 45 rage generated", which is mistaken, it's 35 rage generated. As I detailed by explaining the step by step process, it refunds and the mechanic has no bearing on Tactician.

Yeah math fail there lol, and yes it's a rage generation mechanic that both refunds and generates rage without decreasing rage cost of MS, thereby leaving Tactician's functionality intact.

As for Tactician testing, I don't think testing for Deadly Calm should be hard. Just spam whatever abilities during Battle Cry, rinse and repeat to calculate averages of proc rates per usage. As for Precise Strikes and Dauntless though, meh.

[Archimtiros]

Does the Tactician change make Archavon's Heavy Hand more attractive than Ayala's Stone Heart now?

Difficult to say, probably, though less due to this change and more due to Ayala's change last build.

Previously Ayala's allowed Execute at 35% rather than 20%, but the last build changed it to a Sudden Death mechanic - which would be good but Arms has long suffered due to it using the base (10 rage) cost of Execute rather than the maximum.

Due to that interaction, the Gloves are probably the best, though the Heroic Leap pants are very good as well.

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Yeah math fail there lol, and yes it's a rage generation mechanic that both refunds and generates rage without decreasing rage cost of MS, thereby leaving Tactician's functionality intact.

As for Tactician testing, I don't think testing for Deadly Calm should be hard. Just spam whatever abilities during Battle Cry, rinse and repeat to calculate averages of proc rates per usage. As for Precise Strikes and Dauntless though, meh.

Well if you get a proc at all during Deadly Calm, you know that Tactician works, but it's more complicated with Precise Strikes and Dauntless. It's also key to note that just because it works with Deadly Calm doesn't mean it works with Precise Strikes/Dauntless - it doesn't flag interaction in the spell data, it flags abilities. I'll know when I or Collision gets a chance to look at the data in detail, but I highly suspect it works with the base, excepting Execute which will work with positive conversion.

[Murlocbait]

I appreciate all the breakdown and discussion of the details and specifics of this change, thanks everyone!

Also, HOLY FUCKING SHIT THEY ACTUALLY DID IT!!! I don't know what I'm gonna complain about now, because they actually addressed my biggest gripe with Arms. I mean, it would be nice if they actually posted in the official Arms thread to discuss this change with players, considering how huge it is. But this is definitely better than nothing.

[Kaljurei]

Well if you get a proc at all during Deadly Calm, you know that Tactician works, but it's more complicated with Precise Strikes and Dauntless. It's also key to note that just because it works with Deadly Calm doesn't mean it works with Precise Strikes/Dauntless - it doesn't flag interaction in the spell data, it flags abilities. I'll know when I or Collision gets a chance to look at the data in detail, but I highly suspect it works with the base, excepting Execute which will work with positive conversion.

Well, if they used the same formulae as they did for Deadly Calm, then yeah it should work for Precise Strikes/Dauntless, but we'd have to look at spell data like you said to figure it out.

Does Collision still theorycraft? I haven't seen his posts in ages.

Also, HOLY FUCKING SHIT THEY ACTUALLY DID IT!!! I don't know what I'm gonna complain about now, because they actually addressed my biggest gripe with Arms. I mean, it would be nice if they actually posted in the official Arms thread to discuss this change with players, considering how huge it is. But this is definitely better than nothing.

There's still a lot more they could do, like for example make Sweeping Strikes range a little better, and providing better defensive alternatives. But yeah, the tactician change is huge.

[Deleted]

Anyone else noticing a bug with MS? I can't put my finger on it yet, but sometimes it just doesn't want to be used, it's off cd, enough rage, not below 20% on target for in for the kill shenanigans but it refuses to be used for a couple seconds.

[Murlocbait]

There's still a lot more they could do, like for example make Sweeping Strikes range a little better, and providing better defensive alternatives. But yeah, the tactician change is huge.

Yeah I know, but it feels like more fine-tuning at this point. The Tactician thing was the big change I was really hoping to see. The shift to 8 yard on Ravager so it is no longer smaller than Bladestorm is also a nice touch from this patch. I throw a lot of negative shit at Blizz for what they've done to warriors since MoP, but it's only fair that I also show appreciation for when they do things that are smart and helpful for the class. Hoping to see a few more, but gotta pat them on the back when they come to their senses now and again.

[Barnantinos]

So what does the basic rotation look like?

[Kaljurei]

Anyone else noticing a bug with MS? I can't put my finger on it yet, but sometimes it just doesn't want to be used, it's off cd, enough rage, not below 20% on target for in for the kill shenanigans but it refuses to be used for a couple seconds.

This can be attributed to latency. Considering I come from a country where I get to play at 130 ping or so, I have seen this happen quite a lot.

Yeah I know, but it feels like more fine-tuning at this point. The Tactician thing was the big change I was really hoping to see. The shift to 8 yard on Ravager so it is no longer smaller than Bladestorm is also a nice touch from this patch. I throw a lot of negative shit at Blizz for what they've done to warriors since MoP, but it's only fair that I also show appreciation for when they do things that are smart and helpful for the class. Hoping to see a few more, but gotta pat them on the back when they come to their senses now and again.

In a purely professional perspective of game design, no I cannot agree with you. I'm not saying that they should be perfect, but design decisions such as "Enrage increasing damage taken" and then upon outcry leading to design decisions such as "Let's give TG a health bonus, a talent that reduces damage taken(Warpaint), and artifact bonuses for extra health during Enrage" is bullshit. The question always comes up "Why do you have to do all this".

I'll point you out to an amazing youtube video which makes a great deal of sense here, although the point has already been made over the course of Legion Alpha - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1Fg76c4Zfg

[Artunias]

Anyone else noticing a bug with MS? I can't put my finger on it yet, but sometimes it just doesn't want to be used, it's off cd, enough rage, not below 20% on target for in for the kill shenanigans but it refuses to be used for a couple seconds.

Yes, it's like 2-3 seconds it just won't fire off. No idea why, and seems totally random.