Arms Legion Discussion

[Valkaneer]

It goes back to what was said earlier... CS is way too strong. Without it, we tickle our opponents. With it, we absolutely wreck them. I would really enjoy them lowering the gap (buffing base damage and nerfing CS). This also might lead to more fun gearing (actually going for haste softcaps and stuff)

CS is not the problem, FR is. You don't see any other variation of warrior spec in any tree doing that kind of damage unless picked Focus rage.

[tehdef]

Good thing Blizzard employees aren't inexperienced and foolish enough to implement tuning passes based solely off of simulations. Never, not one single time in the history of this game, has a ST simulation ranking even remotely resembled the damage output hierarchy in an actual raid. Sims are a tool to evaluate intraspec variability, not INTERSPEC rankings.

FR was nerfed because it was an outlier within the spec. That is very easy to determine, and very easy to address accurately. This is likely why only arms was tuned yesterday. Tuning for outlaw, havoc, WW, etc, is coming, but they don't have a single ability causing them to be out of control in all situations.

And this is why almost every class has a "get out of balance free" card. Simply put, they just tweak their % damage ability.

WW: Stance of Fierce Tiger
Arms: Seasoned Soldier
Mastery as a whole is typically a % damage of some sort, and can be tuned downward.

Outlaw will be tough, I assume they will have to go after the mastery, or just make roll the bones bonuses weaker.

[Valkaneer]

Cute story you've made up for yourself here, you've undervalued the actual dps provided by your spec (MM is not that low), you've exaggerated the sim numbers being posted, Feral/Arms/Outlaw have gone from within 1k difference posted on the SC front page to Arms now being 30k-50k ahead by your reconning? Though some math for you, 330k is 10% ahead of 300k! O top of that you're taking simcraft numbers based on a pure patchwerk with many flawed simcraft models as a way to guage actual performance.

Since when has simcraft been accurate at guaging realistic class performance pre raid in a new expansion? Oh that's right, never!




This you're miissing the point here Tilt. He was saying that people didn't play Arms in HFC without the full gear but rather Fury, which was completely wrong as I was pointing out, what relevance Arms being overpowered in T18 during HFC has towards that discussion I don't know, if anything it only supports the notion, because Arms dominance in HFC didn't end there with the nerf, it only extended further as the patch went on because Fury set bonuses were underwhelming (and got buffed multiple times) and Fury didn't have the Execute burst to synergise with the ring, so fell behind Arms. Arms while overpowered at the start of HFC but would have gotten outscaled at the end just as we saw anyway, since the nerf was nowhere near in the margins of difference we saw between classes.

You're one to talk after playing Arcane/Fire mage for HFC happily sitting 70% of many other specs with a much greater margin than what Arms has over the mid running specs right now, the hypocrisy is delicious with you. Mages even when not benefitting from hilariously fast kills were out of this world.

Where did you disappear to anyway, abandoned your mage to raid elsewhere with Hunter or?

Well that's just not true I know for a fact that you can take the exact same eye level let's say 700 both Warriors No set piece. And fury will outperform Arms by probably 15 to 20k. Arms was the worst melee and possibly the worst dps by the end of WoD.

I mean basically your argument this entire time is that you need a 20 to 25% handicap to compete.

[Bigbazz]

Well that's just not true I know for a fact that you can take the exact same eye level let's say 700 both Warriors No set piece. And fury will outperform Arms by probably 15 to 20k.

I mean basically your argument this entire time is that you need a 20 to 25% handicap to compete.

So your argument is not based on actual raiders but on people in PVP gear or Invasion gear at the end of the expansion? If you had ilvl700 going into HFC, guess what, you were full Mythic BRF geared.. I'm not talking about Mr Casual Timmy coming back halfway through a tier to spend a week in Ashran and then decide he wants to be a raider, either way you'd still not play Fury on the cleave fights, which still means you're playing Arms.

Both Arms and Fury were dogshite without set bonuses in HFC, useless both. Warriors were one of the most set bonus reliant classes in WOD.

[tonysniper]

WoD warriors were an atrocity. No spec should ever be locked behind set bonuses.


On topic: so I had to drop my low level ETW relics for 840+ ones. The DPS gain was nice, but I really miss getting CS procs non stop. Also I die a little inside when I run mythics and people drop the relics that boosts ETW.

On the other side, I have two 850 precise strikes trinkets, and while the rage discount is really good, I still prefer the ETW ones.

[Valkaneer]

So your argument is not based on actual raiders but on people in PVP gear or Invasion gear at the end of the expansion? If you had ilvl700 going into HFC, guess what, you were full Mythic BRF geared.. I'm not talking about Mr Casual Timmy coming back halfway through a tier to spend a week in Ashran and then decide he wants to be a raider, either way you'd still not play Fury on the cleave fights, which still means you're playing Arms.

Both Arms and Fury were dogshite without set bonuses in HFC, useless both. Warriors were one of the most set bonus reliant classes in WOD.

No not the end of the invasion I'm talking about HFC release. Anyone who's played a warrior in Warlords kn4ose arms was by far the most gear dependant spec in the game. It was by far in a much worse situation that fury. Like arms might pull 30k in 700 ilvl while fury doing 45k.

[Kahnarble]

WoD warriors were an atrocity. No spec should ever be locked behind set bonuses.

I have "fond" memories of being a feral druid and keeping my 2T4 set bonus long after I got into T6 because it was THAT essential. And by fond, I mean PTSD.

[globezorz]

Can you link your armory? I want to see how you got 97% inc damage on CS because that's absolutely insane. I don't doubt you have it, but I have one 840 and one 850 trinket, both with pure str and mastery, and I'm still nowhere near you.

In terms of tanking I'm perfectly happy to do so for a faster in on mythics. I like to set the pace of the dungeon personally. And tanking is really easy anyway so yeah, sign me up.

You can't believe he has 82% mastery? We've had people claim into the 90s. Type "savant" in the AH. Some people prioritize mastery over ilvl to an absurd extent. It's not impossible.

[Bigbazz]

No not the end of the invasion I'm talking about HFC release. Anyone who's played a warrior in Warlords kn4ose arms was by far the most gear dependant spec in the game. It was by far in a much worse situation that fury. Like arms might pull 30k in 700 ilvl while fury doing 45k.

On HFC release you entered the raid with T17, Fury was superior on AOE and Single Target (because of Arms T17 4 set nerf), Arms was still superior on cleave. The "difficult" fights were Tyrant, Xhul'horac and Archimonde pre Mythic and all of those favoured Arms from the beginning, Fury was fine on Xhul but most likely you would play Arms for add cleaving (execute + SS), Fury gained real strength on that fight only with the 4x T18 (but then so did Arms). Most decent raiding guilds were handing Warriors tier because Arms was overpowered with their T18 in the early weeks meaning most raiders already had 4x T18 by Archimonde Heroic (by Archi normal if you were lucky).

Arms was not more gear dependant than Fury, if anything at the start of WOD it was the opposite with Fury being super reliant on having high crit to even function, whilst Arms was performing extremely well in Highmaul and only became set bonus reliant later with tuning changes + scaling of other classes, it was one of the most dominant specs in Highmaul and super strong well into Blackrock Foundry. Lets not forget that in BRF Arms still had the use of Bladestorm because mastery scaling had not yet settled in, so Arms had strong single target along with superior cleave and AOE that could compete with Fury on most fights.

You're talking about Arms pulling 30k at ilvl700 but I was pulling more than that in the ilvl 670s! Hell on my first kill of Gruul HC in the first week of BRF I pulled 31k dps as Gladiator, the first week it released. Here is proof.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d49sgLJbNhA - 31k as Glad first week of BRF.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TRpAKZ1Uzs - 34k as Arms at ilvl679 just after Arms got nerfed, less than 2 weeks later.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdIF4Z5PEd0 - 43k on Twin Ogron during Highmaul.

These numbers you speak of don't add up, and I was not in a top guild at the time, this was a semi-casual guild of friends. Had I been raiding in a higher guild like the last year or so those numbers would have been higher due to faster kills, and I'm sure many top raiding warriors around here can post logs/videos pointing out just that.. Arms being behind Fury is some sort of figment of your imagination, both specs needed set bonuses painfully but prior to HFC it was Fury that suffered that more so, and with HFC having so many important cleave fights (Archimonde key among them) Arms was the go-to choice from the beginning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orBHTTeispE - Arms in T17 set on HC Xhul, prior to me getting my T18 set bonuses (or Archi trinket, obviously). I was not even at ilvl 700 in this, probably around 695 with T17 bonuses. Notice how the non T18 Warriors dominate because it's a cleave fight with adds to execute? Arms was strong for HFC progress before you even got T18. See the guy who finished 3rd out of of the 3 Warriors? He was Fury, an exceptional player but Fury.

[Xelly]

Is Hidden Satyr the best neck enchant all aorund ? Anyone tested Distand Army in dungeons ? (I'll be doing mythics+)

[mysticx]

It goes back to what was said earlier... CS is way too strong. Without it, we tickle our opponents. With it, we absolutely wreck them. I would really enjoy them lowering the gap (buffing base damage and nerfing CS). This also might lead to more fun gearing (actually going for haste softcaps and stuff)

True, all the CS-cooldown-change did was improve "Bad RNG"-protection, but the real problem is the contrast between CS being up and not... (And the resulting other issues concerning stat priorities and balancing)

[Deleted]

Cute story you've made up for yourself here, you've undervalued the actual dps provided by your spec (MM is not that low), you've exaggerated the sim numbers being posted, Feral/Arms/Outlaw have gone from within 1k difference posted on the SC front page to Arms now being 30k-50k ahead by your reconning? Though some math for you, 330k is 10% ahead of 300k! O top of that you're taking simcraft numbers based on a pure patchwerk with many flawed simcraft models as a way to guage actual performance.

Since when has simcraft been accurate at guaging realistic class performance pre raid in a new expansion? Oh that's right, never!




This you're miissing the point here Tilt. He was saying that people didn't play Arms in HFC without the full gear but rather Fury, which was completely wrong as I was pointing out, what relevance Arms being overpowered in T18 during HFC has towards that discussion I don't know, if anything it only supports the notion, because Arms dominance in HFC didn't end there with the nerf, it only extended further as the patch went on because Fury set bonuses were underwhelming (and got buffed multiple times) and Fury didn't have the Execute burst to synergise with the ring, so fell behind Arms. Arms while overpowered at the start of HFC but would have gotten outscaled at the end just as we saw anyway, since the nerf was nowhere near in the margins of difference we saw between classes.

You're one to talk after playing Arcane/Fire mage for HFC happily sitting 70% of many other specs with a much greater margin than what Arms has over the mid running specs right now, the hypocrisy is delicious with you. Mages even when not benefitting from hilariously fast kills were out of this world.

Where did you disappear to anyway, abandoned your mage to raid elsewhere with Hunter or?

I'd take being OP on progression for those 2 or 3 weeks over being OP for 12 months of on farm everytime. And it's about the same level of relevance as to me being a "hypocrite" cause i played mage in WoD. Anyways, who cares about competition over other classes? You compete with your own class/specc anyways, unless it affects your raidspot, and mages didn't cuck warriors over at all ever so. I'm not being a hypocrite at all. And no, the sims i brought up are not the memesims that are public on simcraft, it's our own guilds personal character sims, with their personal gear, and personal relic traits. 100k iterations, and i can tell you that we're all really close to preraid bis, and our warrior simmed 349k, and our rogues was around 300k and we don't have a feral so don't know the feral sim, but yes, On average our guilds preraid bis sims was averaging around 270k... Meanwhile warrior 350k.. but ye, nice 10%, and btw they didn't nerf warriors with 30% so you threw out a bullshit number just straight outa your ass... And for your last question, yes i'm a hunter in Innominatum now.

[Bigbazz]

I'd take being OP on progression for those 2 or 3 weeks over being OP for 12 months of on farm everytime. And it's about the same level of relevance as to me being a "hypocrite" cause i played mage in WoD. Anyways, who cares about competition over other classes? You compete with your own class/specc anyways, unless it affects your raidspot, and mages didn't cuck warriors over at all ever so. I'm not being a hypocrite at all. And no, the sims i brought up are not the memesims that are public on simcraft, it's our own guilds personal character sims, with their personal gear, and personal relic traits. 100k iterations, and i can tell you that we're all really close to preraid bis, and our warrior simmed 349k, and our rogues was around 300k and we don't have a feral so don't know the feral sim, but yes, On average our guilds preraid bis sims was averaging around 270k... Meanwhile warrior 350k.. but ye, nice 10%, and btw they didn't nerf warriors with 30% so you threw out a bullshit number just straight outa your ass... And for your last question, yes i'm a hunter in Innominatum now.

Which numbers are you gonna use then mate, because you've conveniently used SC front page 840 numbers as the basis of your Hunter numbers, whilst you're using pre-raid BIS personal numbers for the Warrior? You can't cherry pick your numbers like this to make your story sound better, also as I pointed out the sims are not 100% accurate and the APL's are not loyal for all specs (The fury one is bumfucked, fuckknows why or who did that shit), and what fight durations are you doing? Different durations will favour different specs due to cooldown timings.

We all knew Arms Warrior was very high on ST, but it just got nerfed (12% to a 3stack MS equates to about 9-10% drop in burst and 6-8% ish on sustained). Outlaw can probably only beat Warrior with a 6 buff bonanza, but it fucking slaughters Warrior on AOE (burst and sustained) so ya know it's not a comparable situation is it. A lot of specs are expected to be buffed/nerfed, but I dont want to invest all this time into Arms only for it to be left fucking mediocre due to a series mega nerfs. If we get to raids and Warriors are ass raping people in week 1 of the actual raid then fine nerf it, but I get pretty tilted when people use simcraft and take it too seriously like some holy bible of dps, because it's never been accurate at guaging early raid performance, let alone progression viability.

If in 2 weeks Warriors are bumfucking everyone then fine, but right now it's a spec that slams people in Dungeon bosses due to freak RNG and gets fucking raped everywhere else. 400k dps on one boss, 250k on the next, enjoy your RNG because that's what it's like.

[Deleted]

Just got tiny oozeling 845 from Violet Hold, this thing packs a punch when you line it up with CS and BC.

[Aggrophobic]

Good thing Blizzard employees aren't inexperienced and foolish enough to implement tuning passes based solely off of simulations. Never, not one single time in the history of this game, has a ST simulation ranking even remotely resembled the damage output hierarchy in an actual raid. Sims are a tool to evaluate intraspec variability, not INTERSPEC rankings.

FR was nerfed because it was an outlier within the spec. That is very easy to determine, and very easy to address accurately. This is likely why only arms was tuned yesterday. Tuning for outlaw, havoc, WW, etc, is coming, but they don't have a single ability causing them to be out of control in all situations.

Thing is though, the spec is horrible without FR.

[sjsctt]

Which numbers are you gonna use then mate, because you've conveniently used SC front page 840 numbers as the basis of your Hunter numbers, whilst you're using pre-raid BIS personal numbers for the Warrior? You can't cherry pick your numbers like this to make your story sound better, also as I pointed out the sims are not 100% accurate and the APL's are not loyal for all specs (The fury one is bumfucked, fuckknows why or who did that shit), and what fight durations are you doing? Different durations will favour different specs due to cooldown timings.

We all knew Arms Warrior was very high on ST, but it just got nerfed (12% to a 3stack MS equates to about 9-10% drop in burst and 6-8% ish on sustained). Outlaw can probably only beat Warrior with a 6 buff bonanza, but it fucking slaughters Warrior on AOE (burst and sustained) so ya know it's not a comparable situation is it. A lot of specs are expected to be buffed/nerfed, but I dont want to invest all this time into Arms only for it to be left fucking mediocre due to a series mega nerfs. If we get to raids and Warriors are ass raping people in week 1 of the actual raid then fine nerf it, but I get pretty tilted when people use simcraft and take it too seriously like some holy bible of dps, because it's never been accurate at guaging early raid performance, let alone progression viability.

If in 2 weeks Warriors are bumfucking everyone then fine, but right now it's a spec that slams people in Dungeon bosses due to freak RNG and gets fucking raped everywhere else. 400k dps on one boss, 250k on the next, enjoy your RNG because that's what it's like.

With this logic, why not wait to bring all the negativity, then?

[DMAULS]

Pretty much hate that so much of the 840+ gear that drops and from WQs is crit/haste. I rarely see good mastery/vers gear outside of the AH. Like they want us to go Fury but make it too difficult.

[Bigbazz]

With this logic, why not wait to bring all the negativity, then?

Have some perspective, this discussion was born of a post asking for FR to be nerfed by a further 40-50% based on no raid data, based on no knowledge of Blizzards plans for other specs. FR Arms being the top single target spec of Arms should not be surprising given its design and synergy, and it's exactly that problem that the other builds (which win out on full AOE BTW) struggle with.

Blizzard isn't balancing classes to have 3 talents that do well in all situations, they have given people a lot of "this is cleave, this is st, this is AOE" options and the FR setup clearly follows a path that makes it exceptional on ST, while the others simply lack in that area. The only way to make the other builds particularly good on ST is to overtune their base numbers, then nerfing FR into obscurity to counter that.

The non FR builds suffer massively from low tactition procs, from actually requiring good RNG to do respectible dps and they suffer heavily on target switching if CS is not available, since their ability to focus dps a switch target relies purely on them having CS... This is why FR spec works better, it processes much higher quantities of rage and filters that into strong focussed bursts.. With that design the other builds will never compete on single target, not without extreme number tweaking to counteract the design synergy.

But why would they do that when they are actively designing to allow niche strengths via talents? The other builds are quite a bit superior on AOE, with FR only really getting into blatently overpowered territory on cleave with the use of the MS gloves.

[Valkaneer]

snip.

Cherry picking boss fights with two Targets up the entire time is BS and you know full well I said without tier gear. There's really nothing to talk about here you write big post trying to sidestep facts. You're not going to pull out 50k when simcraft says 30k is your top end. You run the same with arms gear then you run it with Fury. Fury easily boot stomped arms and it is was played out in game. But I'm done going over Warlords because everybody who knew anything about the game knows arms Warrior was by far the lowest DPS without tier 18.


The real issue here is people who want a handicap, because they don't want a single Talent that is an outlier nerfed. Everyone is trying to come up with a bunch of ridiculous ways to balance the issue when the real problem is a single talent Focus Rage.

[Bigbazz]

Cherry picking boss fights with two Targets up the entire time is BS and you know full well I said without tier gear. There's really nothing to talk about here you write big post trying to sidestep facts. You're not going to pull out 50k when simcraft says 30k is your top end. You run the same with arms gear then you run it with Fury. Fury easily boot stomped arms and it is was played out in game. But I'm done going over Warlords because everybody who knew anything about the game knows arms Warrior was by far the lowest DPS without tier 18.

Cherrypicking boss fights? I picked the 3 most important fights that you would possibly ever do before getting full T18. If you don't have an argument then why even reply? I provided actual solid proof and evidence of every point I was making, do you want me to post more bloody videos? Because if you want to see the other videos I have every single HFC kill right there on my youtube channel, from Normal mode up till when I killed Mythic Archi last year.

Fact is you haven't got a clue about what actually happened in HFC and you've got a skewed view of the strength of the Warrior specs during that time. By all means provide proof, I showed you a single target fight where i did 34k dps at ilvl 679, that's 4k dps higher than you thought they could do at ilvl 700.

EDIT : - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done - Here you go, 41k on Gruul (Pure single target) at ilvl 681. That's 11k dps higher than you think is possible at ilvl700.

The real issue here is people who want a handicap, because they don't want a single Talent that is an outlier nerfed. Everyone is trying to come up with a bunch of ridiculous ways to balance the issue when the real problem is a single talent Focus Rage.

Again you're showing how clueless you are here, FR is good because it synergises perfectly with Anger Management and Deadly Calm, it's pretty much a requirement to run those talents with the build in order to make it function. It's a complete build, not a single talent.