Arms Legion Discussion

[catablitz]

This isn't targeted at you specifically, but I hate comments like these.

Why does it have to be the "go-to" spec for you to play it? If you like it better, play it, end of story. Realize that everyone has their own opinion of what they do/not enjoy the most, and they can't all be the "go-to" spec so that their idea of enjoyment can overlap with optimization.

The difference between most talents is not that wide, and few people play at the level where it even matters to begin with. Play what you enjoy and don't worry so much.

You do realize he was expressing his opinion in a public forum right?

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Hum after ninja hotfix this build => http://beta.wowdb.com/talent-calculator#EmdF still very good on ST & MT, after test on dungeon and Lfr, Slam@filler ST and WW+buff Cleave@filler Cleave/Aoe with bonus on main target, don' t worry about Arms, for the moment...

That's the build I've run with in dungeons and the last couple stealth changes has dropped my damage by roughly 100k dps (from 230k-250k to 130k-150k) The only changes that we know of (so far) is Fervor being nerfed and WW crits giving 1 rage instead of 2. Those alone should NOT result in that big a dps drop...

Just for orders sake I'm at 843 ilvl and 26 points into arms artifact. All 3 gold dragons, missing a few points into cleave amp and the crit chance bonus to Execute.

Something is going on that isn't found yet- Arms damage was butchered, hard.

[Archimtiros]

You do realize he was expressing his opinion in a public forum right?

And so was I. Did you have a point, or do you just want to feel like part of the team?

[catablitz]

And so was I. Did you have a point, or do you just want to feel like part of the team?

I want to be able to read stuff regarding the topic without some authoritarian guy criticizing everything. 95% of your posts is your perception and view on mechanics and the rest 5% is other people's calculations. Let others share their opinion and stop trying to impose yours by disrespecting others. That is not what a forum is for. It is not the first time you do it. Anyway I don't share your free time so ye come with something smart to answer. More to the topic I agree that it would love overpower being used too!

[Artunias]

I want to be able to read stuff regarding the topic without some authoritarian guy criticizing everything. 95% of your posts is your perception and view on mechanics and the rest 5% is other people's calculations. Let others share their opinion and stop trying to impose yours by disrespecting others. That is not what a forum is for. It is not the first time you do it. Anyway I don't share your free time so ye come with something smart to answer. More to the topic I agree that it would love overpower being used too!

He had a good point though. With the exception of a few outliers the various talents are being balanced pretty darn well. And as he said most people don't play at a level where a 3% difference will matter anyway. You should play what you want and not be lazer focused on the "ZOMG BBQ THEORY BEST SPEC" or whatever. Lol.

[catablitz]

He had a good point though. With the exception of a few outliers the various talents are being balanced pretty darn well. And as he said most people don't play at a level where a 3% difference will matter anyway. You should play what you want and not be lazer focused on the "ZOMG BBQ THEORY BEST SPEC" or whatever. Lol.

I would like to share your opinion but experience taught it is always the opposite. When it is universally accepted that "the go to spec" is X if you don't follow the norm you voluntarily gimp your potential. So it does make sense to wish that X is desirable and fun to play.

[Archimtiros]

I want to be able to read stuff regarding the topic without some authoritarian guy criticizing everything. 95% of your posts is your perception and view on mechanics and the rest 5% is other people's calculations. Let others share their opinion and stop trying to impose yours by disrespecting others. That is not what a forum is for. It is not the first time you do it. Anyway I don't share your free time so ye come with something smart to answer. More to the topic I agree that it would love overpower being used too!

Nobody said they couldn't add their opinion, but wishing something is best for one individuals sole benefit isn't productive to conversation, nor would it even necessarily be productive to the spec as a whole. Tell me, how exactly is your opinion conductive to conversation? Let me give you an example of how it usually goes down:

You: "I wish this was best cause I like it"
Them: "I don't like it, so you're wrong"
You: "You're an idiot, it's clearly more fun!"

And so on. What benefit to discussion did that provide? Absolutely none.

Even more, thinking that Overpower won't be used because it isn't mathematically best in specific simulated circumstances alone is the kind of thinking that causes such "concerns" to be raised to begin with. Do you even know what the DPS difference between Overpower and Dauntless is? I'll delete my account right now if you could accurately tell me, and I feel safe in making that bet, because I know there are only two people on this forum who could.

Back to the point - you have the freedom to play whatever you want to play. Spouting the idea that what you want should somehow be more important than what anyone else wants is not only unproductive, but selfish, and useless as the opinion has no basis in reasonable fact, nor does it do anything to inform or promote discussion over anything other than an undefinable expression.

And so, I go back to expressing my opinion (which you don't seem to have a problem with trying to stifle), that I dislike those style of comments because they are unproductive and personally motivated, meanwhile there is nothing forcing you to play in a manner in which you don't want to to begin with. If you would like to come up tangible and well reasoned argument as to why using or not using a particular setup is good or bad, then I'll set said reservations aside.

[Beardyface]

This isn't targeted at you specifically, but I hate comments like these.

Why does it have to be the "go-to" spec for you to play it? If you like it better, play it, end of story. Realize that everyone has their own opinion of what they do/not enjoy the most, and they can't all be the "go-to" spec so that their idea of enjoyment can overlap with optimization.

The difference between most talents is not that wide, and few people play at the level where it even matters to begin with. Play what you enjoy and don't worry so much.

It's difficult to put faith in blizzard when it comes to balance after 10+ years of specs with huge imbalance. And in Legion we're going to be more stuck with our spec choice since we have been since Burning Crusade. If they truly are balanced within, say, 3% of each other, then most of us will happily pick the playstyle and spec we enjoy, but historically, that's not how it has been.

A 3% variance would be fine for most. I'd even be okay with a 5-7% variance, as different specs will shine on different fights, but when you get to a 10%+ variance, your raid leader starts to go "hey, I know you love Survival and hate Marksman, but we really need you to play Marksman."

That's where those kinds of comments come from. Experience. Having been benched for playing what you enjoy. If they truly pull off decent balance in Legion, then I'm sure these kinds of comments will go away, but until people are actually in the middle of playing that game, posts like these will continue.

[catablitz]

Nobody said they couldn't add their opinion, but wishing something is best for one individuals sole benefit isn't productive to conversation, nor would it even necessarily be productive to the spec as a whole. Tell me, how exactly is your opinion conductive to conversation? Let me give you an example of how it usually goes down:

You: "I wish this was best cause I like it"
Them: "I don't like it, so you're wrong"
You: "You're an idiot, it's clearly more fun!"

And so on. What benefit to discussion did that provide? Absolutely none.

Even more, thinking that Overpower won't be used because it isn't mathematically best in specific simulated circumstances alone is the kind of thinking that causes such "concerns" to be raised to begin with. Do you even know what the DPS difference between Overpower and Dauntless is? I'll delete my account right now if you could accurately tell me, and I feel safe in making that bet, because I know there are only two people on this forum who could.

Back to the point - you have the freedom to play whatever you want to play. Spouting the idea that what you want should somehow be more important than what anyone else wants is not only unproductive, but selfish, and useless as the opinion has no basis in reasonable fact, nor does it do anything to inform or promote discussion over anything other than an undefinable expression.

You do realize that the "You're an idiot, it's clearly more fun!" guy is you right? Not every post is supposed to bring hard data on the table. There is this thing called preference!

No, I cant answer with numbers and I wouldn't care. I will just use what is best like every serious raider should. You just reminded us that you are buddies with two sim guys -who have earned greater respect than you- while you are supposed to be that team's voice. Quite convenient and the reason for your arrogance. I don't think they would approve of your manners.

Every single time you don't like someone's opinion you bash them. I don't want to continue this discussion. Feel free to turn that forum to EJ. I know you envy some of that team. I just don't care that much anymore.

[Katie45]

Lol Opinions are right and wrong, wat

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Speaking to Sarri and apparently WW got a baseline nerf on top of Fervor. Slam damage got nerfed on top of the +5 rage cost (from 15 to 20). Explains a number of the issues I've experienced but not all, we'll see what comes from Sarri later.

[Archimtiros]

It's difficult to put faith in blizzard when it comes to balance after 10+ years of specs with huge imbalance. And in Legion we're going to be more stuck with our spec choice since we have been since Burning Crusade. If they truly are balanced within, say, 3% of each other, then most of us will happily pick the playstyle and spec we enjoy, but historically, that's not how it has been.

A 3% variance would be fine for most. I'd even be okay with a 5-7% variance, as different specs will shine on different fights, but when you get to a 10%+ variance, your raid leader starts to go "hey, I know you love Survival and hate Marksman, but we really need you to play Marksman."

That's where those kinds of comments come from. Experience. Having been benched for playing what you enjoy. If they truly pull off decent balance in Legion, then I'm sure these kinds of comments will go away, but until people are actually in the middle of playing that game, posts like these will continue.

Player perception comes into it too. 10% actually isn't that large of a variance, hell even 20% isn't in some cases. Nowadays though, players see 3% differences and think it's something they have to do to be competitive, when realistically you'll see a larger variance in whether or not you get lucky crits. It's kind of the drawback to the increasing level of player knowledge though to be honest, and isn't really something that's easy (or feasible) to solve, lest everyone come to their collective senses about things, which is even more unlikely!

[Valy]

That's the build I've run with in dungeons and the last couple stealth changes has dropped my damage by roughly 100k dps (from 230k-250k to 130k-150k) The only changes that we know of (so far) is Fervor being nerfed and WW crits giving 1 rage instead of 2. Those alone should NOT result in that big a dps drop...

Just for orders sake I'm at 843 ilvl and 26 points into arms artifact. All 3 gold dragons, missing a few points into cleave amp and the crit chance bonus to Execute.

Something is going on that isn't found yet- Arms damage was butchered, hard.

I has test after hotfix on dungeon and raid 25 lfr and i havn't drop dps as you (i have 829 ilv and 26 points on Artifact) and if rage cost Slam is +5, WD is 170% to 201% srsly i hav'nt problem with the last hotfix, just change ST rotation and my dps still very correct.

[Archimtiros]

Speaking to Sarri and apparently WW got a baseline nerf on top of Fervor. Slam damage got nerfed on top of the +5 rage cost (from 15 to 20). Explains a number of the issues I've experienced but not all, we'll see what comes from Sarri later.

Slam damage was buffed, not nerfed, from 170%-201%, to (partially) compensate for the rage cost increase.

- - - Updated - - -

You do realize that the "You're an idiot, it's clearly more fun!" guy is you right?

Except that's not what I said at all, and went out of my way in my post to point out that I wasn't attacking him, and a reasonable expression of why I felt the way I did, which he even agreed with.

You just reminded us that you are buddies with two sim guys -who have earned greater respect than you- while you are supposed to be that team's voice. Quite convenient and the reason for your arrogance. I don't think they would approve of your manners.

Actually I am one of those "two sim guys" being referred to, but thanks for showing your ignorance.

Every single time you don't like someone's opinion you bash them. I don't want to continue this discussion. Feel free to turn that forum to EJ. I know you envy some of that team. I just don't care that much anymore.

The only person bashing here is you, and for someone who doesn't care you seem awfully invested in this line of conversation. He expressed an opinion, I expressed an opinion as to why I don't like the line of reasoning. He and I are amicable, while the only one causing issues here is you.

- - - Updated - - -

I has test after hotfix on dungeon and raid 25 lfr and i havn't drop dps as you (i have 829 ilv and 26 points on Artifact) and if rage cost Slam is +5, WD is 170% to 201% srsly i hav'nt problem with the last hotfix, just change ST rotation and my dps still very correct.

While Fury saw changes to a number of talent, ability and artifact coefficients, Arms only had a few adjustments. As above, the cost increase and corresponding buff equate to a small nerf to Slam directly, so you should be seeing similar results as with before. The only thing I worry about is that it leads to increasing gaps in the rotation, though it does have a slight positive effect on Tactician procs.

[Qoma]

This has been a confusing exchange. Archi says to be openminded about talent choice, gets replied to that we should be openminded about being closeminded about talent choice? That he shouldn't tell people what to play if people want to play what they want to be told what to play? /boggle

[Rorke]

Damm servers down. Focused Rage Arms is so much fun that without it feels as boring as playing DK.

[Flaks]

Player perception comes into it too. 10% actually isn't that large of a variance, hell even 20% isn't in some cases. Nowadays though, players see 3% differences and think it's something they have to do to be competitive, when realistically you'll see a larger variance in whether or not you get lucky crits. It's kind of the drawback to the increasing level of player knowledge though to be honest, and isn't really something that's easy (or feasible) to solve, lest everyone come to their collective senses about things, which is even more unlikely!

I'm not sure but from what I've been reading tactician droughts can swing your dps so widely as to change your from upper middle of the back to near the very bottom. Warriors seriously need to make a hige ruckus about this. Not the "this is bad, this is why, here's some ideas to fix it" kind of ruckus. But the "HOLY SHIT YOURE SO DUMB BLIZZARD, here's 6 capped threads of us screaming" ruckus. Cause the latter is the only thing that works from what I've seen.

[Rorke]

I'm not sure but from what I've been reading tactician droughts can swing your dps so widely as to change your from upper middle of the back to near the very bottom. Warriors seriously need to make a hige ruckus about this. Not the "this is bad, this is why, here's some ideas to fix it" kind of ruckus. But the "HOLY SHIT YOURE SO DUMB BLIZZARD, here's 6 capped threads of us screaming" ruckus. Cause the latter is the only thing that works from what I've seen.

Who cares dude. Game launches in a little over a month anyway.

They're going to do what they want to do anyway. Did you see all of the screaming from Sub Rogues throughout the alpha/beta process? And nothing changed.

[Warriorsarri]

Speaking to Sarri and apparently WW got a baseline nerf on top of Fervor. Slam damage got nerfed on top of the +5 rage cost (from 15 to 20). Explains a number of the issues I've experienced but not all, we'll see what comes from Sarri later.

The DPR of Slam has been nerfed. The rage cost was increase, and so was the damage, but the damage wasn't increased at the same rate as the rage cost, aka I call it a nerf.

The rage swings that you've seen could come from a bug I've encountered a few times, that I've yet to figure out where it comes from. Some times your swing timer simply stops. Longest stretch I've gone without melee swinging is about 7 seconds, and this is with me standing in melee range facing the boss. I've yet to figure out what causes it, or how to fix it. Usually it works if you yell at the screen long enough.

Also. It's worth noting, Archi is usually right with what he says. As he mentioned, there's two people on these forums who finds the numerical answers for us, most of the time, and that's the two of us. Just wanted to point that out.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

The rage swings that you've seen could come from a bug I've encountered a few times, that I've yet to figure out where it comes from. Some times your swing timer simply stops. Longest stretch I've gone without melee swinging is about 7 seconds, and this is with me standing in melee range facing the boss. I've yet to figure out what causes it, or how to fix it. Usually it works if you yell at the screen long enough.

Yeah it's super frustrating, I'm standing around just having done CS and one Mortal Strike and 1-2 slams and then I'm not getting any rage. I'm looking at my combat log (live in the chat window) and I don't see ANYTHING happen for what seems like an eternity, completely wasting my CS window... It's so bad at times I'm thinking it could be server lag but everything else works fine... It's so strange though, I've danced around targets tried to move inn and out of melee range and even swapping targets but to no effect. Even tried start attack macro and it did nothing... For me I think that's the biggest problem, Nerfs to Whirlwind that really shouldn't be part of our ST dps rotation shouldn't butcher the DPS of the spec...