Fury Legion Discussion

[Toppy]

So a whole bunch of specs had their executes removed because they primarily wanted it to be a warrior thing. Somehow they managed to turn our execute phase into horseshit, and they're entirely happy with it.

I'm impressed.

Well this is blizz, who took Valhalla and made it not Valhalla and gave it a nice shiny holy theme.

[Archimtiros]

So a whole bunch of specs had their executes removed because they primarily wanted it to be a warrior thing. Somehow they managed to turn our execute phase into horseshit, and they're entirely happy with it.

I'm impressed.

Fury Execute is actually really strong with the artifact. Actually playing the phase is a bit iffy due to Enrage and multiple priorities however.

[Ferozan]

That's pretty subjective, but the thing that annoys people is that the things that got changed since the start of the alpha were specifically the things we asked them not to remove and/or said we liked.

• At the start of WoD Alpha they said they were happy with the way Fury (MoP) played, and it would only recieve a few minor tweaks.
• They overhauled Arms and we were pretty happy with it, despite a few hiccups.
• They then removed everything we said we liked, and stuck us with the "slow" style, which was universally despised, and even broke some basic functionality to make the spec stick (ie: breaking charge).
• They then gutted Fury entirely, and it went through three large scale revisions before settling on what we finally got.
• Upon launch, Arms and Fury both were woefully underpowered, and didn't come up until a patch 3 weeks in.

In Legion Alpha the cycle is repeating.

• They gave us an entirely new version of Arms, which we were pretty happy with. This isn't just me talking, it recieved near universal praise.
• They then removed everything we said we liked about it.
• Fury got a lot of excitement over new Rampage mechanics, and it was a mixed bag, but mostly liked.
• Then they completely changed it's rage spending formula into a "build and burn" reminiscent of WoD Arms, which is much less liked.

My personal issues run a bit deeper though. What I dislike is that they ignore fairly significant flaws with the rotation simply because it's "done enough" to work overall. This is a matter of personal taste, obviously they have a timeline and no development is truly complete, but it really irks me that they let it go.

It is almost that their philosophies for warrior are that warrior is like a basic class, for the most random person to get and learn how to play in one session.
They simply won't admit it publicly.

For the first time in 8 years, i'm really starting to embrace the idea of rerolling to something engaging or more useful and keep my warrior as a main alt :/

[Khelon]

Just because they are happy with the way the specs are playing right now, does not mean that tuning will not involve small mechanical changes that will make the spec a lot better.

Its very obvious that many of you want to get the most value of each ability, you dont want to spending your time pressing furious slash, because its does like 1/3 dmg of bloodthirst or any other ability that we have currently. Not getting a full enrage window inside bladestorm is one way to make the enrage window balanced, however I do not like it.

Blizzard is trying to push the "press the highest priority ability" playstyle, which involves a shit ton of rng per pull. You can have pulls where you dont have to touch furious slash at all and pulls where you have to use it every 4th global. This takes a lot of control from the player and we are just rolling the dice constantly hoping for the best. But without some sort of rng you wont really get an engaging playstyle.

But that doesnt mean they cannot do things to make the difference per pull a lot closer to eachother. I'd rather have a window of 100-120k than 100-500k.

WW + BT should enrage you when your crit on any of the 5 targets to solve the issue where you have to use furious slash in aoe situations.
Massacre should swap places with Odyn's champion, mainly because we dont need cooldown reduction on certain abilitys every fight, but a proper way to keep enrage in execute phases will be there everytime. ¨

Im still gonna stick to my warrior and go into legion with it, if it ends up playing crap I'll just find some other class to play.

[Archimtiros]

Just because they are happy with the way the specs are playing right now, does not mean that tuning will not involve small mechanical changes that will make the spec a lot better.

Its very obvious that many of you want to get the most value of each ability, you dont want to spending your time pressing furious slash, because its does like 1/3 dmg of bloodthirst or any other ability that we have currently. Not getting a full enrage window inside bladestorm is one way to make the enrage window balanced, however I do not like it.

Blizzard is trying to push the "press the highest priority ability" playstyle, which involves a shit ton of rng per pull. You can have pulls where you dont have to touch furious slash at all and pulls where you have to use it every 4th global. This takes a lot of control from the player and we are just rolling the dice constantly hoping for the best. But without some sort of rng you wont really get an engaging playstyle.

But that doesnt mean they cannot do things to make the difference per pull a lot closer to eachother. I'd rather have a window of 100-120k than 100-500k.

WW + BT should enrage you when your crit on any of the 5 targets to solve the issue where you have to use furious slash in aoe situations.
Massacre should swap places with Odyn's champion, mainly because we dont need cooldown reduction on certain abilitys every fight, but a proper way to keep enrage in execute phases will be there everytime. ¨

Im still gonna stick to my warrior and go into legion with it, if it ends up playing crap I'll just find some other class to play.

Unfortunately the major problems from the spec aren't tuning problems. That isn't to say that tuning couldn't improve things, but the fact that Furious Slash does dick damage isn't the reason why it's problematic; it's the fact that it's already a higher priority than the high damage abilities, and improving it's damage would only exacerbate that issue.

[Tyze]

Honestly the only problems I see in Fury is Furious Slash, which is indeed a spell that shouldn't be a need to have.
And also the low enrage uptime, should be a bit higher.

[Archimtiros]

Honestly the only problems I see in Fury is Furious Slash, which is indeed a spell that shouldn't be a need to have.
And also the low enrage uptime, should be a bit higher.

Enrage uptime isn't really a problem, unless you simply mean the length of the buff itself. In that case, I'd still say it isn't necessarily a problem on it's own, but rather creates another problem of too many buttons to press in too short a window. In both cases, reducing the priority of FS (or merging it outright with RB, as I've suggested before) would fix the situation without needing to adjust Enrage.

Of course, I'd still like it if Enrage were longer, but it doesn't really "need" to be.

[Khelon]

Unfortunately the major problems from the spec aren't tuning problems. That isn't to say that tuning couldn't improve things, but the fact that Furious Slash does dick damage isn't the reason why it's problematic; it's the fact that it's already a higher priority than the high damage abilities, and improving it's damage would only exacerbate that issue.

Highest priority? I dont think we are playing the same spec.

With endless rage, frenzy & carnage you will have no issues keeping yourself enrage and only use furious slash whenever you need to refresh frenzy stacks. Granted I do have 35% crit and 11% haste, but thats about the stats that blue dungeon gear is intended to give you at the beginning of the expansion.

It only becomes a problem keeping enrage up whenever I use wrecking ball or inner rage. AoE is a problem because you will only gain enrage from critting on your primary target. But if they change that, aoeing wont be a problem anymore, in fact you probably wont even touch furious slash at all if you have inner rage/meat grinder talented in that situation.

As for the problems where bladestorm doesnt line up with enrage or dragons roar, thats only really an issue because we are used to having it cover the entire bladestorm duration. Pre tier 19 set you will be able to get a full enrage window with bladestorm if you spec outburst, frenzy & have around 20% haste.

But if you want to go with the massive burst that avatar bladestorm dragons roar and enrage would give you if they all lined up perfectly, why not just play arms for that fight? It already does that job better anyway.

[Archimtiros]

Highest priority? I dont think we are playing the same spec.

With endless rage, frenzy & carnage you will have no issues keeping yourself enrage and only use furious slash whenever you need to refresh frenzy stacks. Granted I do have 35% crit and 11% haste, but thats about the stats that blue dungeon gear is intended to give you at the beginning of the expansion.

Higher =! highest.

It only becomes a problem keeping enrage up whenever I use wrecking ball or inner rage. AoE is a problem because you will only gain enrage from critting on your primary target. But if they change that, aoeing wont be a problem anymore, in fact you probably wont even touch furious slash at all if you have inner rage/meat grinder talented in that situation.

You just kind of made my point. Yes, it is possible to take talents that emphasize Rampage and reduce the need for Furious Slash to boost Bloodthirsts crit rate, but it is only one specific setup of talents, and not even the best as of right now. Regardless, it goes right back to my other point that improving Furious Slash's damage doesn't really do anything to benefit Enrage, which was the concern I was responding to.

[Khelon]

Higher =! highest.



You just kind of made my point. Yes, it is possible to take talents that emphasize Rampage and reduce the need for Furious Slash to boost Bloodthirsts crit rate, but it is only one specific setup of talents, and not even the best as of right now. Regardless, it goes right back to my other point that improving Furious Slash's damage doesn't really do anything to benefit Enrage, which was the concern I was responding to.

So if that setup is not the best for patchwork right now, what is? Being enraged all the time sounds like a lot better than gambling in order to just fill in abilities that does a little more damage than raging blow does. Not counting execute phase because I do agree its messy without massacre and I dislike that I wont have it on every single fight.

[Haveth]

Welp, I guess if they don't want to fix half the talents and have people go cookie cutter swapping out 2 talents for AoE/ST, they succeeded with flying colors. Congratulations Celestalon! I'm getting secondhand embarrassment from envisioning Celestalon looking at War Machine, Fresh Meat, Outburst, Frothing Berserker and Reckless Abandon and thinking "This is fine".

Demon Hunter and Enhance Shaman are looking fairly appealing at the moment. I'm not even sure what to write at this point, except show futile disappointment and moderate anger that someone so incompetent could be in charge of class design.

What's funny(Or more accurately, sad) is that quickly glancing through the other feedback threads, I'm seeing people getting exhausted pointing out obvious gameplay flaws that have been reported for weeks and never addressed for almost every spec.

[Archimtiros]

So if that setup is not the best for patchwork right now, what is? Being enraged all the time sounds like a lot better than gambling in order to just fill in abilities that does a little more damage than raging blow does. Not counting execute phase because I do agree its messy without massacre and I dislike that I wont have it on every single fight.

You should really count the Execute phase, as it's a significant portion of Fury's damage due to the artifact.

- - - Updated - - -

Welp, I guess if they don't want to fix half the talents and have people go cookie cutter swapping out 2 talents for AoE/ST, they succeeded with flying colors. Congratulations Celestalon! I'm getting secondhand embarrassment from envisioning Celestalon looking at War Machine, Fresh Meat, Outburst, Frothing Berserker and Reckless Abandon and thinking "This is fine".

Demon Hunter and Enhance Shaman are looking fairly appealing at the moment. I'm not even sure what to write at this point, except show futile disappointment and moderate anger that someone so incompetent could be in charge of class design.

What's funny(Or more accurately, sad) is that quickly glancing through the other feedback threads, I'm seeing people getting exhausted pointing out obvious gameplay flaws that have been reported for weeks and never addressed for almost every spec.

I actually like War Machine, though I have no desire to use it in raids as I dislike gimmicky "if I get the kill" procs.
Fresh Meat is trash all around.
Frosting Berserker could be tuned to usefulness.
Reck Abandon actually isn't bad, just annoyingly over-complicated to use efficiently.
Outburst is an insult, as bad as MoP's Improved Recklessness.

Demon Hunters aren't bad, but I have two main issues with their DPS spec. One is the insane over emphasis on Eye Beam (seriously, it's not even a major point of DH fantasy, nor agility/melee based but it's their dominating ability...), the other is over their use of mobility as DPS enhancements, which is something I fundamentally disagree with. It'll make a fun alt, but I doubt I'll do anything serious with it.

[Khelon]

You should really count the Execute phase, as it's a significant portion of Fury's damage due to the artifact.

Ok lets say I do that then (I mainly want massacre to swap spots with that 5% crit stacking major trait or odyn's champion), what is the best talent option on sustained aoe like xhul and patchwork?

I think our problems with execute will boil down to how often we will have to pick bladestorm, with more crit and using frenzy + tier 19 I dont think its going to be that bad without massacre but it will feel worse than if you had it baseline for sure.

[Deleted]

Saw the comments from Celes. I'm baffled, wauw, really? No, they didn't? They did....wow...

I guess than at this point we can just stop mentioning Furious Slash and the 4 second Enrage window. It's staying right there, cause "they like it".

Could be worse, could end up spamming Slam all peeping expansion.

[Haveth]

You should really count the Execute phase, as it's a significant portion of Fury's damage due to the artifact.

- - - Updated - - -



I actually like War Machine, though I have no desire to use it in raids as I dislike gimmicky "if I get the kill" procs.
Fresh Meat is trash all around.
Frosting Berserker could be tuned to usefulness.
Reck Abandon actually isn't bad, just annoyingly over-complicated to use efficiently.
Outburst is an insult, as bad as MoP's Improved Recklessness.

Demon Hunters aren't bad, but I have two main issues with their DPS spec. One is the insane over emphasis on Eye Beam (seriously, it's not even a major point of DH fantasy, nor agility/melee based but it's their dominating ability...), the other is over their use of mobility as DPS enhancements, which is something I fundamentally disagree with. It'll make a fun alt, but I doubt I'll do anything serious with it.

I don't like War Machine because I know it's never going to be chosen in any sort of serious encounter, PvE or PvP. Having something so unreliable competing with more passive rage gen is just a joke. It's basically only useful when soloing old content for the movespeed buff.

Yeah frothing berserker could be tuned, but most people would be hard pressed to choose it over massacre for single target, especially since you get Odyn's Champion procs in execute, along with a stronger execute phase and thus a more enraged execute phase. I'm not sure what the possible uptime on it is right now, if I had to guess, it's probably close to 70% or something.

I don't think Reckless Abandon will ever be chosen for serious content either, perhaps during the prepatch when T18 is still relevant and you can get stupid value out of it, but beyond that? You not only waste rage 100% of the time, but most people are accustomed to pooling rage before cooldowns, so it's essentially an extra rampage every 1 minute (Less with artifact traits). That being said I think Carnage and DR will end up scaling much better as the expansion progresses as well.

[Archimtiros]

Ok lets say I do that then (I mainly want massacre to swap spots with that 5% crit stacking major trait or odyn's champion), what is the best talent option on sustained aoe like xhul and patchwork?

I think our problems with execute will boil down to how often we will have to pick bladestorm, with more crit and using frenzy + tier 19 I dont think its going to be that bad without massacre but it will feel worse than if you had it baseline for sure.

It's not bad without Massacre in the sense that Massacre is required for the Execute phase to work (to clarify, I'm saying that you don't need Massacre for the Execute phase to function), it just makes it that much more effective.

You're definitely right there'll be contention between using it and Bladestorm, but I think that's probably the best situation we could be in. In this case we're lucky that Frothing Berzerker is so worthless, whereas Mortal Combo is actually worthwhile for Arms.

[Coffeh]

It's just bizarre to me how Blizzard has done an exceptional job at responding and reacting to feedback....for pretty much all classes except warriors. Sad to say, but warriors got the WoD treatment here: every bit of feedback ignored and dismissed. But I'm glad a blue posted saying pretty much not to expect any significant changes. Now I can eliminate warrior from my list of possible mains in Legion.

[Deleted]

What the fuck

[Deleted]

my hope is that, with a solid haste% and the right talents, we can maintain a very high enrage uptime without having to rely on FS at all. getting to the point where I can take it off my bars is my ultimate goal in life.

we need crit for enrage, but it would be interesting to see if there's a point where haste takes over due to it guaranteeing enough rage to chain rampages like a god. probably missing some factor or another, but we'll see. some very fun talent combos, even if they're a bit hiccupy in places

[Deleted]

Haste effecting Enrage by us drowning in rage so using Rampage every 5 seconds? In all honesty Rampage looked promising but now it's just a dumb and lazy fix to an outdated Mastery.

I just wish they would scrap the idea of our Mastery being tied to BT critting, just make the damn stat passive if you can't stop everyone hating it until we have decent gear. So many other masteries have changed yet the one I'd say having the BIGGEST rng factor and most hatred is the one that sticks around? How can you be happy with that?

Like honesty, how the fuck can that sparkly dragon prick look at this feedback and say his team are happy with how the specs work? Let him create a Warrior and spend an hour on each spec on a dummy, streaming with a webcam and we'll see his reaction. Give him the typcail gear you'd expect at HC entry with the typical amount of artifact traits and let him sit there, doing the shitty rotation with a smile on his face and genuinely still believe there's nothing wrong with either of these specs.


Arms is a step up from WoD, but this version of it is a huge step down from the original alpha version. With a few bits of tweaking, talent placements readjusted and obvious tuning issues the spec would be great.

Fury though, Fury is shit. Rampage is shit. A 4 second Enrage is shit, but workable. Furious Slash isn't just shit, it's like someone came into my house, slept with my girlfriend, kicked my dog, took a shit over my computer, ate all my food, set fire to my sofa and then asked me to thank them for it. Furious slash should be how we active Enrage because I want to fist fuck my monitor every time I have to press the piece of shit ability.