Fury Legion Discussion

[Leyl]

I've been playing Beta for quite a few days now, and tbh, I feel like something is wrong for Warriors. I dont get why Enrage makes you take 30% extra damage. Our mastery is already something we need to 'activate' where other classes more or less have it up passively, and yet, we need to get another thump on top of the head with the 30% increased damage taken.

Mayb if we got a HUGE damage increase during the Enrage-timer I could understand it, but we dont. I feel like a liability in dungeons, especially mythic bcos Im so fragile due to the extra 30% I take whereas others dont.

And I cant see anyone bringing tons of melee into Mythic+ Dungeons and especially Fury Warriors bcos of that extra damage taken for no benefit.

Yeah it makes it for a more exciting spec to play, but constantly being on that cusp of death gets old rly fast.

The theme of Fury is a classic, bloodied, berserker, that is reckless beyond his own care of self well-being. I think the current layout and iteration fits that theme. There is a talent you can take for Mythic dungeons that lowers your damage taken while enraged to 20% called War Paint. In PVP, or if you think you're gonna get trucked, you can take this talent and be ok. Demon Hunters are frail, as are the rest of melee too who play DPS. I don't think Rogues are shining examples of tanki-ness, and no melee should be able to take insane damage and win. Ranged do not get a free pass on this; even warlocks were brought down to human levels of survival in WoD. Nobody should ever feel 100% safe as a DPS. You're risking your ass to do damage; that's the thing there. As far as others not taking 30% extra damage and others not: does everyone have the same capacity for damage output as warriors? Look at the other masteries, and compare. Who else gets that much of a bonus to damage buff like Enrage? I don't think that many get ALL damage done masteries. We do with Enrage uptime. There has to be some sort of penalty for that.

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There is no good rationale for it, other than someone on the dev team just really likes the idea of it (they probably don't play Warrior much at end-game...). I find it impossible to believe that there's a serious Warrior out there who finds anything fun about this "flavor". Class flavor implementations should feel fun, IMO; but Fury's flavor is a debuff, lol.

Oh well, this dead horse has been beat enough. It's not likely to change based on our feedback, which is pretty much unanimously opposed to this "flavor".

I dunno, I kind of feel like if you have played D&D, or any other RPG having a Barbarian/Berserker/Battlerager is something fun and highly advantageous due to damage output. I think Fury fits that bill. Huge damage, huge consequences. Besides, having a warrior as a heal sponge might be a nice way for healers to pad meters and "parse better" etc. And again, there's a talent to take if you think you're gonna die: War Paint.

[Maltore]

The theme of Fury is a classic, bloodied, berserker, that is reckless beyond his own care of self well-being. I think the current layout and iteration fits that theme. There is a talent you can take for Mythic dungeons that lowers your damage taken while enraged to 20% called War Paint. In PVP, or if you think you're gonna get trucked, you can take this talent and be ok. Demon Hunters are frail, as are the rest of melee too who play DPS. I don't think Rogues are shining examples of tanki-ness, and no melee should be able to take insane damage and win. Ranged do not get a free pass on this; even warlocks were brought down to human levels of survival in WoD. Nobody should ever feel 100% safe as a DPS. You're risking your ass to do damage; that's the thing there. As far as others not taking 30% extra damage and others not: does everyone have the same capacity for damage output as warriors? Look at the other masteries, and compare. Who else gets that much of a bonus to damage buff like Enrage? I don't think that many get ALL damage done masteries. We do with Enrage uptime. There has to be some sort of penalty for that.

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I dunno, I kind of feel like if you have played D&D, or any other RPG having a Barbarian/Berserker/Battlerager is something fun and highly advantageous due to damage output. I think Fury fits that bill. Huge damage, huge consequences. Besides, having a warrior as a heal sponge might be a nice way for healers to pad meters and "parse better" etc. And again, there's a talent to take if you think you're gonna die: War Paint.

Ugh... to each his own, I guess.

However, this isn't D&D. WoW is a much more competitive environment were class balance matters a great deal. It would not likely been seen as acceptable to the masses to balance Fury intentionally higher than the rest. Fury balance will be targeted to be right in the middle along with everyone else.

[Artunias]

Fury is strong, but not any stronger than other top specs.

[Leyl]

Ugh... to each his own, I guess.

However, this isn't D&D. WoW is a much more competitive environment were class balance matters a great deal. It would not likely been seen as acceptable to the masses to balance Fury intentionally higher than the rest. Fury balance will be targeted to be right in the middle along with everyone else.

Agreed this isn't D&D, and granted, there are competitive raiding options. If Fury ends up being less competitive, then it is ok to switch up classes. In competitive environments everyone wants a winner, and sometimes sacrifices gotta be made. I don't feel like Fury is immensely more squishy right now, but if it is, then I'm certain Blizzard may re-balance that Enrage percentage out a bit. I believe the Fury damage-taken increase is probably there for PVP as well; as a secondary thing.

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Fury is strong, but not any stronger than other top specs.

If we end up in a place where we are paper bags on survival I think some adjustments will get made. If not, maybe we'll get buffed even more. Just looking at it with a glass half-full.

[Archimtiros]

Occasionally, yes, but that wasn't the point. The point is with sufficient enough crit, and enough haste to have no loopholes in your rotation, those aren't going to be every 10 seconds, which was the point you tried to make.

Are you sure, because I'm pretty certain I pointed out the opposite...

Keep in mind that Haste has little bearing, it affects the GCD and cooldowns all at the same rate, so while it compresses the rotation, it means you have more chances to fit in FS in a 10s period, not less.

FS is always, regardless, going to be your least favorite button to press, at this point Whirlwind, without WB procced, deals more damage than FS on singletarget. The only benefit that pushes it ahead of actually just using a normal Whirlwind, is the fact that it highers my chance, very slightly to crit the next BT, which increases my white hit damage because they're unable to miss and gives me 100% attack speed, which gives me more rage to press Rampage to help enrage uptime.

It's not all about damage, and +15% chance is not very slight by any means, even one application is double effective chance you'll have early on, seeing as we won't be stacking crit. That's exactly why you use it even in favor of stronger abilities, and as I pointed out above, you're going to have free GCDs in which to do so.

Except that Inner Rage Raging Blow outweights anything I could press until 3 targets.
Edit: My bad, Odyn's Fury outweights it aswell, exponentially the more targets there are obviously.

That's not true at all, and not the point I was making. We were talking about procs and considering them you find that Execute outweighs it, Sudden Death outweighs it, Sense Death outweighs it, Massacre outweighs it, and Wrecking Ball outweighs it.

Once you get to talking about multi-target, Whirlwind against two targets (note that 2 targets isn't really considered multi-target, as much as cleave, but that's semantics) deals less absolute damage than Inner Rage, but Meat Cleaver makes up for it and as I pointed out, you're more likely to use Bloodbath in those situations regardless. IR can still be used if you have only two targets, since it eats less GCDs, but that's hardly a case of IR v Frenzy as much as IR v Bloodbath.

But yes, in raiding environment with MT bloodbath will pull out ahead unless there will be priority targets, but that doesn't change the fact that running the standard setup for most of your dungeon grind etc will still have you press IR in its current iteration, on CD until there's so much aoe that WW/Meatcleaving begins to outweight it.

Most dungeon packs have at least 3 mobs, and that's if you're not pulling multiple groups at once for faster clears, in which case AoE is going to quickly take over.

I'm just not sure the point of your post, you talk about how IR is so much more realistically useful (despite the point being made that Frenzy was really only useful on single target), but fail to recognize that most situations are going to come down to AoE, leaving IR in the dust anyway.

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As far as others not taking 30% extra damage and others not: does everyone have the same capacity for damage output as warriors? Look at the other masteries, and compare. Who else gets that much of a bonus to damage buff like Enrage? I don't think that many get ALL damage done masteries. We do with Enrage uptime. There has to be some sort of penalty for that.

Actually a lot of classes have comparable masteries if you look past mechanics, and the fact that they're balanced around damage potential makes that a weak point. It isn't as though Warriors are tuned to do potentially more damage than other classes because they take more damage, it's just tuned so that they get more damage out of Mastery than other classes, which is then further balanced by reducing the reliable uptime on said mastery.

[Coffeh]

I remember Blizzard making a big point that the 30% increased damage taken was off-set largely by bigger health pool...which was dumb to begin with, since...what's the point of a penalty if it's immediately canceled out? Except they just massively nerfed the extra health fury warriors received. So now a penalty with no reimbursement. I don't particularly care, since I've pretty much moved on past this class. I think Blizzard has no idea what to do with the spec. It's a shame, because the first iteration in the Legion alpha for fury was AMAZING, and they've just driven it into the ground since then. Numbers don't really mean anything to me. I don't need to play a top dps spec. I just want to play a fun spec. And this spec is just a mess. Nothing lines up. Nothing makes sense. It's just a clusterfuck. Anyway, enough rambling.

[Archimtiros]

I remember Blizzard making a big point that the 30% increased damage taken was off-set largely by bigger health pool...which was dumb to begin with, since...what's the point of a penalty if it's immediately canceled out? Except they just massively nerfed the extra health fury warriors received. So now a penalty with no reimbursement. I don't particularly care, since I've pretty much moved on past this class. I think Blizzard has no idea what to do with the spec. It's a shame, because the first iteration in the Legion alpha for fury was AMAZING, and they've just driven it into the ground since then. Numbers don't really mean anything to me. I don't need to play a top dps spec. I just want to play a fun spec. And this spec is just a mess. Nothing lines up. Nothing makes sense. It's just a clusterfuck. Anyway, enough rambling.

Well, Enrage isn't up all the time, but bonus health is active all the time, so it's not exactly an equal 30 for 30. Still, the main reason it was nerfed so heavily (along with % based healing) is because of PvP balancing.

[Coffeh]

Well, Enrage isn't up all the time, but bonus health is active all the time, so it's not exactly an equal 30 for 30. Still, the main reason it was nerfed so heavily (along with % based healing) is because of PvP balancing.

I see their design philosophy of separating the balance between pvp and pve is working out tremendously.

[Deleted]

I haven't really seen this brought up a lot, but how does everyone feel about our third relic slot being gated behind Court of Stars? Most classes can complete their campaign mostly incidentally; World quest completion, gathering, garrison missions, etc.

We are forced to forgo gearing up via world quests and mythics in order to grind rep if we want to unlock our third Relic when everyone else gets theirs. We have it pretty easy before then, but as far as I can tell only classes that require Court of Stars are forced to choose between endgame content and rep grind.

Oh, i assumed every class had to go to Court of Stars at some point to get their 3rd relic slot. This is really irritating, knowing a single relic starts of at 110 as 35-40 itemlevels for your weapon it's quite silly to block warriors into getting one until they not only do all of Suramar, but also have to wait for several Nightfallen Emissaries, (one every 5 days or so). They should either make all specs go there to finish their questchain, or none of them.

[Naeno]

Yeah, unless you've been getting extremely lucky with Wrecking Ball procs, there's no way you're not using one FS while waiting for your abilities to come up.

I decided to mess around with using Carnage and Frenzy instead of the usual Massacre and Frenzy. I ended up having better performance with that throughout the entire encounters over the regular IR and Frenzy builds. This doesn't mean jack shit but I'm just throwing that out there for others who are messing around with their talents.

[Gromnak]

I've been away from these forums for months, but as Legion approaches, it's time to focus more on WoW.

I'm level 100 on beta in full greens with no enchants playing fury....and it's awful. Did they honestly make victory rush arms only? Bloodthirst is not enough to sustain my health against multiple targets and enraged regen is a 2 minute cooldown.

The "furious charge" talent which increases the next BT heal by 300% after charging also seems useless at first glance, because generally you charge into combat with high (or full) HP and open with bloodthirst. This talent does nothing to sustain your HP mid-combat unless you leap out and charge in or charge a far away mob mid-combat just for a heal, neither of which are efficient choices while leveling. It also forces you to trade out damage reduction from warpaint or increased mobility from bounding stride. Bringing back +% dmg taken to warriors is probably the dumbest shit ever from a PvE point of view by the way.

How can they justify removing victory rush, arguably the most iconic warrior leveling ability, from fury?

No victory rush combined with lack of baseline bloodthirst crit just feels terrible while leveling. Tying furious slash to bloodthirst crit is a very bad idea and makes gameplay feel clunky and horrible. I took the fresh meat talent to get 30% crit on bloodthirst on targets above 80% hp, but I would rather take war machine for faster movement and attack speed while leveling. Furious slash is a button that I don't enjoy hitting.

TLDR:

- Victory Rush removed from Fury
- 30% (or 20% with talent) more damage taken while enraged
- Bloodthirst baseline crit removed and instead tied to a clunky wet noodle ability that makes you hate life whenever you are forced to press it
- Enraged regen 2 min cd instead of 1 min
- No defensive stance or die by the sword

So pretty much they gutted fury self healing while leveling and shit on our damage and defensive capability at the same time. Seems legit.

Obviously with a 740-750 ilvl character on live, most of these issues will matter much less. It's also possible that I'm being too quick to criticize since I'm only level 100 in full greens with no artifact weapon at the time of this post.


@Archimtiros @CollisionTD @Warriorsarri: please use your powers to make Fury (and warriors in general) better before Legion launches =)

edit: just got artifact

If one of you could post the most optimal trait setup for Fury (based on your theorycrafting) that would be awesome, thanks!

[Archimtiros]

@Archimtiros @CollisionTD @Warriorsarri: please use your powers to make Fury (and warriors in general) better before Legion launches =)

We've done what we can, but it only goes so far. You should relay your thoughts directly, and preferably more well thought out than "X sucks, I don't like it" which only causes your feedback to go into the circular file.

Recommended talents for leveling: http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-calc/warrior/fury/Mn_0

[Artunias]

The damage taken on Enrage is pretty asinine. Combined with A LOT of nerfs to max/hp and healing for Fury I'm still hoping for a reduction to 15-20% with Warpaint there to reduce it further (still bullshit, but whatever)

I miss Victory Rush quite a bit as Fury, but I have to disagree with Furious Charge being useless. I actually found it to be very good while leveling, and for the occasional o shit moment combined with double time with creative play you could survive things that would otherwise kill you.

Also, the starter gear is probably the worst for Fury compared to any class because it's 100% mastery which without any of your other stats is quite limited in usefulness. It gets LOADS better with just a couple of quest rewards from Legion content, but is definitely very painful to start out with. Luckily most players won't be having to use boosted gear.

[Gromnak]

We've done what we can, but it only goes so far. You should relay your thoughts directly, and preferably more well thought out than "X sucks, I don't like it" which only causes your feedback to go into the circular file.

Recommended talents for leveling: http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-calc/warrior/fury/Mn_0

Thanks for the input. Also, my thoughts on self healing definitely were not just "X sucks, I don't like it." I guess you could put my rant about furious slash and lack of bloodthirst baseline crit into that category though.

In depth, well thought out feedback concerning increased damage taken while enraged and fury's defensive abilities being removed certainly is not required. It's easy for anyone to see that those changes are ridiculous, at least from a PvE point of view.

I miss Victory Rush quite a bit as Fury, but I have to disagree with Furious Charge being useless. I actually found it to be very good while leveling, and for the occasional o shit moment combined with double time with creative play you could survive things that would otherwise kill you.

I suppose it just requires a playstyle change to take advantage of. I guess I'll try it out. Definitely gonna miss the shorter cd & 70% movement speed heroic leap though..

[Deleted]

Guys, remember to post on the official beta forum good discussion in here, we just need it moved

[Archimtiros]

Thanks for the input. Also, my thoughts on self healing definitely were not just "X sucks, I don't like it." I guess you could put my rant about furious slash and lack of bloodthirst baseline crit into that category though.

I didn't say they were, but most is, and therefore should be avoided.

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I miss Victory Rush quite a bit as Fury, but I have to disagree with Furious Charge being useless. I actually found it to be very good while leveling, and for the occasional o shit moment combined with double time with creative play you could survive things that would otherwise kill you.

The issue is that it's only good for leveling or PvP. While theoretically you could come up with situations in which to use it during group content, it has very little practical value because you simply aren't going to do it.

• First consider that you'd need both the reactionary and GCD time in which to pull off the maneuver. While this couple of seconds isn't a large amount of time by any means, it's time in which you should be getting healed anyway, which calls into question the usefulness of your own heal. Unless your healers are dead, in which case you've got bigger problems.
• Second, it's time spent off target, even if it's a small amount of time, which many players are simply not going to be inclined to make.
• Third, it comes at a cost between more mobility and straight mitigation. As many would agree, and along with the first point above, mitigating damage is almost always better than healing it.
• Finally, if not using it for mobility, you're far more likely to be using Charge for Rage thanks to Uncontrolled Rage; this means you're less likely to have the charge available to use defensively, unless you know beforehand that the damage is coming, in which case there are better ways to mitigate and plan reactive healing.

[Deleted]

Holy shit warrior campaign is pain in the ass. The start is easy but then you gotta grind the access to Court of Stars and after that you gotta wait like 2 weeks on some fucking missions? Jesus fucking christ.

[Artunias]

Holy shit warrior campaign is pain in the ass. The start is easy but then you gotta grind the access to Court of Stars and after that you gotta wait like 2 weeks on some fucking missions? Jesus fucking christ.

It seems quite a bit more extended than other class campaigns. It's also been posted about on the forums. No response, of course.

[Leyl]

I've been away from these forums for months, but as Legion approaches, it's time to focus more on WoW.

I'm level 100 on beta in full greens with no enchants playing fury....and it's awful. Did they honestly make victory rush arms only? Bloodthirst is not enough to sustain my health against multiple targets and enraged regen is a 2 minute cooldown.

The "furious charge" talent which increases the next BT heal by 300% after charging also seems useless at first glance, because generally you charge into combat with high (or full) HP and open with bloodthirst. This talent does nothing to sustain your HP mid-combat unless you leap out and charge in or charge a far away mob mid-combat just for a heal, neither of which are efficient choices while leveling. It also forces you to trade out damage reduction from warpaint or increased mobility from bounding stride. Bringing back +% dmg taken to warriors is probably the dumbest shit ever from a PvE point of view by the way.

How can they justify removing victory rush, arguably the most iconic warrior leveling ability, from fury?

No victory rush combined with lack of baseline bloodthirst crit just feels terrible while leveling. Tying furious slash to bloodthirst crit is a very bad idea and makes gameplay feel clunky and horrible. I took the fresh meat talent to get 30% crit on bloodthirst on targets above 80% hp, but I would rather take war machine for faster movement and attack speed while leveling. Furious slash is a button that I don't enjoy hitting.

TLDR:

- Victory Rush removed from Fury
- 30% (or 20% with talent) more damage taken while enraged
- Bloodthirst baseline crit removed and instead tied to a clunky wet noodle ability that makes you hate life whenever you are forced to press it
- Enraged regen 2 min cd instead of 1 min
- No defensive stance or die by the sword

So pretty much they gutted fury self healing while leveling and shit on our damage and defensive capability at the same time. Seems legit.

Obviously with a 740-750 ilvl character on live, most of these issues will matter much less. It's also possible that I'm being too quick to criticize since I'm only level 100 in full greens with no artifact weapon at the time of this post.


@Archimtiros @CollisionTD @Warriorsarri: please use your powers to make Fury (and warriors in general) better before Legion launches =)

edit: just got artifact

If one of you could post the most optimal trait setup for Fury (based on your theorycrafting) that would be awesome, thanks!

Wasn't Limit, as a guild, entirely banned from playing in the Alpha and Beta altogether? I think I recall this being a huge thing Illidan.

[Gromnak]

Wasn't Limit, as a guild, entirely banned from playing in the Alpha and Beta altogether? I think I recall this being a huge thing Illidan.

You have us confused with Encore.

And it wasn't all of them, just a few, as far as I know.