Fury Legion Discussion

[Hoeth]

LOL, what is there to discuss? It's utter crap. Warriors get the short end of the stick by Blizzard once again. But who cares, every other class can do almost anything a warrior can do but better.

This statement is made on every class forum. Everyone always thinks their class is THE WORST and is always getting shit on. The true is that the grass always looks greener on the other side, yet unless you live across from Mageville, it very rarely is.

[Deleted]

This statement is made on every class forum. Everyone always thinks their class is THE WORST

The thing is though, just because everyone says it doesn't mean everyone is wrong. I mean, of course there's always "the worst", but sometimes several classes or at least specs within those classes are just simply badly designed and not performing at all.

Fury is pretty much in that spot right now.

[Deleted]

Christ, having your BT blocked during Battle Cry is so fucking frustrating. They could disable blocks on bosses like Helya at the very least.

[Karadros]

LOL, what is there to discuss? It's utter crap. Warriors get the short end of the stick by Blizzard once again. But who cares, every other class can do almost anything a warrior can do but better. It was pretty shit in WoD as well (before I quit) where you had to dps as sword and board Gladiator spec. Holy crap that was utter shit.

Speak for yourself - I really liked Gladiator spec, and I think it's a damn shame it didn't get to stick around.

[Archimtiros]

Christ, having your BT blocked during Battle Cry is so fucking frustrating. They could disable blocks on bosses like Helya at the very least.

Awhile back they actually said that perm-front facing bosses shouldn't parry/dodge/block for this and similar reasons, but they never actually made the change.

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Speak for yourself - I really liked Gladiator spec, and I think it's a damn shame it didn't get to stick around.

Don't try to reason with morons.

[Haveth]

LOL, what is there to discuss? It's utter crap. Warriors get the short end of the stick by Blizzard once again. But who cares, every other class can do almost anything a warrior can do but better. It was pretty shit in WoD as well (before I quit) where you had to dps as sword and board Gladiator spec. Holy crap that was utter shit.

You must not have stayed very long, Gladiator got dumpstered well before Highmaul even came out.

[Archimtiros]

You must not have stayed very long, Gladiator got dumpstered well before Highmaul even came out.

It was week 1-2 of Highmaul actually, same time they typically do their raid tuning.

[Bigbazz]

Gladiator had about a week of glory where it was competitive with top on single target, and pretty strong on cleave but poor on AOE. Then it got nerfed and Fury/Arms got buffed, Arms was broken for a bit due to Blizzards stupidity with Mastery buffs and then it all settled down. Gladiator was still "ok" until BRF where it didn't suit the fights as well as it did in Highmaul (Twin Ogron/Brackenspore were great for Glad) and it got outscaled by other classes with their tier bonuses.

But really Highmaul was pretty decent for Warriors, we could dominate on almost all the fights and all 3 dps specs were viable. Right now we have a single build of one of our specs viable on single target, but then it could get fixed within next 2 weeks. It's the same old shite, they nerfed Fury on the beta just before launch (like WOD) and it's completely underwhelming and mediocre as a result. We just lucked out with FR being good.

[Archimtiros]

Right now we have a single build of one of our specs viable on single target, but then it could get fixed within next 2 weeks. It's the same old shite, they nerfed Fury on the beta just before launch (like WOD) and it's completely underwhelming and mediocre as a result. We just lucked out with FR being good.

That's a bit of an unfair characterization. Fury is roughly in the middle of the appropriately tuned DPS specs, which I would call "viable" in its own right, while Arms is hilariously overpowered.

Yeah, if you're only comparing yourself to Feral, WW, or Outlaw, Arms will seem like it's the only one that is "viable". However, if you're comparing to any of the other, not truly overtuned specs, Fury performs just fine.

This isn't to say Fury couldn't use a small buff, but it doesn't need to be extravagant to remain in line with most other specs in the game. The downside to Fury tuning is how much of its damage tied up into Odyn's Fury, which is fine if you're using it on CD, but if there's ever a time in which it can't be used, such as holding it for AoE, Fury's single target damage suffers as a result.

[Bigbazz]

That's a bit of an unfair characterization. Fury is roughly in the middle of the appropriately tuned DPS specs, which I would call "viable" in it's own right, while Arms is hilariously overpowered.

Yeah, if you're only comparing yourself to Feral, WW, or Outlaw, Arms will seem like it's the only one that is "viable". However, if you're comparing to any of the other, not truly overtuned specs, Fury performs just fine.

This isn't to say Fury couldn't use a small buff, but it doesn't need to be anything significant to remain in line with most other specs in the game. The downside to Fury tuning is how much of its damage tied up into Odyn's Fury, which is fine if you're using it on CD, but if there's ever a time in which it can't be used, such as holding it for AoE, Fury's single target damage suffers as a result.

Well no Arms isn't hilariously overpowered at this very moment because there are a whole bunch of specs that can compete with it on single target (and surpass it depending on RNG) whilst ALSO having much better multi target. So no Arms is not "hilariously overpowered" any more than the other strong specs are. And Fury is shite even without considering that, no progression raid leader would take a Fury Warrior by choice right now regardless of whether Arms is strong or not.

If Arms is decimating everyone during raids with more gear then it's overpowered, but right now it's competitive with a number of specs on single target whilst being poor on AOE and only having good cleave as burst during cooldowns, relatively meh on sustained cleave due to rage constraints. Meaning Arms right now is merely a top 5 single target that lags way behind in a number of scenarios compared to a fair few specs (Havoc, WW, Outlaw, MM key among them).

[Archimtiros]

Well no Arms isn't hilariously overpowered at this very moment because there are a whole bunch of specs that can compete with it on single target (and surpass it depending on RNG) whilst ALSO having much better multi target. So no Arms is not "hilariously overpowered" any more than the other strong specs are. And Fury is shite even without considering that, no progression raid leader would take a Fury Warrior by choice right now regardless of whether Arms is strong or not.

There are 3 specs, 4-5 if you include Fire/Havoc with cooldowns on a short fight. The rest are all pretty close together in a happy medium. Fury also has much better MT/AoE than Arms as well, quite possibly the highest burst AoE in the game next to Fire Mages with CDs. Even being upward 5 specs, that's still the minority next to the other 15 DPS specs in the game, so yes, Arms and its compatriots are hilariously overpowered when compared to the majority, and so are definitely the outliers.

Those are the specs that are causing the balancing problems, not the midline. Whether the answer is to nerf 3-5 or buff 15 doesn't really matter, don't confuse "best performing" with "viable", unless you're going to start recommending your entire raid re-roll to one of those specs and say goodbye to Shaman, Paladins, Warlocks, Death Knights, etc, for good.

Anyone who doesn't think Arms is going to get the nerfbat hard is deluding themselves at this point. It may look like "just a strong ST spec" at the moment, but wait until you see what it does with higher gear and the legendary gloves. Balance isn't even a concept at that point.

[Bigbazz]

There are 3 specs, 4-5 if you include Fire/Havoc with cooldowns on a short fight. The rest are all pretty close together in a happy medium. Fury also has much better MT/AoE than Arms as well, quite possibly the highest burst AoE in the game next to Fire Mages with CDs. Even being upward 5 specs, that's still the minority next to the other 15 DPS specs in the game, so yes, Arms and its compatriots are hilariously overpowered when compared to the majority, and so are definitely the outliers.

Those are the specs that are causing the balancing problems, not the midline. Whether the answer is to nerf 3-5 or buff 15 doesn't really matter, don't confuse "best performing" with "viable", unless you're going to start recommending your entire raid re-roll to one of those specs and say goodbye to Shaman, Paladins, Warlocks, Death Knights, etc, for good.

Anyone who doesn't think Arms is going to get the nerfbat hard is deluding themselves at this point. It may look like "just a strong ST spec" at the moment, but wait until you see what it does with higher gear and the legendary gloves. Balance isn't even a concept at that point.

The problem with Fury though is not that it's mediocre on single target, it's that it's mediocre on single target whilst having strengths that other classes already bring and weaknesses that other classes aren't burdened with. The fact that it needs extra healing is significant on early progression, I'm all up for Blizzard to balance all the classes but they tend to end up with a number of problems

1. They never do balance the classes, the class balance is always fucked some way or another. Blizzard were fine with Arcane mages being in tier with the gods with their Sub rogue and Warlock sidekicks while we all ran around like peasants "look guys Bladestorm".. Having a few hilariously overpowered specs is standard for Blizzard.

2. Blizzard do short sighted balancing, balancing around the moment rather than thinking more long term.. Of course the specs that get left behind in that early round of balancing usually don't get fixed, causing some issues.

3. Legendaries, having one or not having one is a massive deal. Arms especially has the MS gloves which might turn a balanced FR Arms Warrior into a hilariously OP (on both ST and Cleave) one, while it could be balanced without. How exactly do they handle this? In the past they have been fine with specs being overpowered, how will they deal with Legendary balance?


The problem with me is I simply do not trust Blizzard to do a good job, I'm well aware that these 5 or so specs are OP (especially those who just decimate on AOE + ST like WW) but even with balance brought back in line it still doesn't put Fury into a good place overall, it needs some sort of buffs or preferably I'd completely scrap the damage taken mechanic, it adds nothing and hurts progression raiding most, because of course as soon as you're mildly overgeared it won't matter either way.

[Archimtiros]

The problem with Fury though is not that it's mediocre on single target, it's that it's mediocre on single target whilst having strengths that other classes already bring and weaknesses that other classes aren't burdened with. The fact that it needs extra healing is significant on early progression, I'm all up for Blizzard to balance all the classes but they tend to end up with a number of problems

1. They never do balance the classes, the class balance is always fucked some way or another. Blizzard were fine with Arcane mages being in tier with the gods with their Sub rogue and Warlock sidekicks while we all ran around like peasants "look guys Bladestorm".. Having a few hilariously overpowered specs is standard for Blizzard.

2. Blizzard do short sighted balancing, balancing around the moment rather than thinking more long term.. Of course the specs that get left behind in that early round of balancing usually don't get fixed, causing some issues.

3. Legendaries, having one or not having one is a massive deal. Arms especially has the MS gloves which might turn a balanced FR Arms Warrior into a hilariously OP (on both ST and Cleave) one, while it could be balanced without. How exactly do they handle this? In the past they have been fine with specs being overpowered, how will they deal with Legendary balance?


The problem with me is I simply do not trust Blizzard to do a good job, I'm well aware that these 5 or so specs are OP (especially those who just decimate on AOE + ST like WW) but even with balance brought back in line it still doesn't put Fury into a good place overall, it needs some sort of buffs or preferably I'd completely scrap the damage taken mechanic, it adds nothing and hurts progression raiding most, because of course as soon as you're mildly overgeared it won't matter either way.

That's a nice segue, but again, I'm not going to call Arms "balanced", given that it competes with 3 specs, while the other ~15 specs are left on relatively equal far behind. That, by definition, is clearly imbalanced.

None of this has anything to do with the point: Calling Fury not viable is categorically incorrect, unless the only specs you consider "viable" are those at the very peak of performance, in which case I refer you back to the first paragraph above.

[Artunias]

Fury has a lot of good points, as has been discussed many times there are definitely a few small things that would help the playstyle a lot.

Within the next 7 days or so that balance push will go out, we can then assess what needs to happen from there. And arms will 100% be nerfed in some capacity. It's already too good, and is absolutely insane looking down the road with legendaries/tier bonuses. It's gonna get hit, potentially hard.

[Bigbazz]

That's a nice segue, but again, I'm not going to call Arms "balanced", given that it competes with 3 specs, while the other ~15 specs are left on relatively equal far behind. That, by definition, is clearly imbalanced.

None of this has anything to do with the point: Calling Fury not viable is categorically incorrect, unless the only specs you consider "viable" are those at the very peak of performance, in which case I refer you back to the first paragraph above.

Fury isn't viable for progression raiding though, if they balance the specs (which they typically do not do a good job of) it can be viable, but it's not worth taking right now because of it's weaknesses. It might have some niche place on some fights, but in most cases it's not a good choice. Thats not to say there is no spot in a raid for a Fury Warrior, just that a Fury Warrior is not a first choice for any spot in a raid, it doesn't really have an ace up it's sleave to be desired.

I'm sure plenty of people will raid as Fury, doesn't mean it's in a good place, even if they nerf the king specs right now Fury doesn't magically become worthwhile.

[Deleted]

Yeah, I don't see Fury as worthless or anything, but it's just annoying when other specs do what we do just as well but without the damage taken penalty, making them plain better. I seem to recall that we were supposed to have strong selfhealing to compensate which I think is fair, but it doesn't seem to have happened. BT healing is pretty unexciting and ER isn't that special compared to other defensives.

I think attaching a leech effect to Enrage would make a lot of sense. It fits the whole raging berserker theme really well and the damage taken penalty would feel a lot less frustrating if Enrage also gave you the means to make up for it. It could basically make us a spec that is easier to keep up against sustained damage but harder to top quickly, giving us a unique strength as to make up for our unique weakness.

[Archimtiros]

Fury isn't viable for progression raiding though, if they balance the specs (which they typically do not do a good job of) it can be viable, but it's not worth taking right now because of it's weaknesses. It might have some niche place on some fights, but in most cases it's not a good choice. Thats not to say there is no spot in a raid for a Fury Warrior, just that a Fury Warrior is not a first choice for any spot in a raid, it doesn't really have an ace up it's sleave to be desired.

I'm sure plenty of people will raid as Fury, doesn't mean it's in a good place, even if they nerf the king specs right now Fury doesn't magically become worthwhile.

Not true. Damage comparison to Arms aside, it has one weakness, and that's the extra damage taken. That seems like it should be an important consideration, but in practice hasn't shown to be a notable detriment in any of the raid testing that went on in beta, regardless of difficulty, or live content. It's stupid, it's worrying, but it simply hasn't been a limiting factor.

As for bringing things to the table, Fury still brings extremely high burst AoE on a short and predictable cooldown, and single target damage which is competitive with the majority of specs in the game. Other specs may do this as well, but that's hardly been a limiting factor for bringing classes in the past. If that is really the case, we would be seeing raids without any Shamans, Paladins, Death Knights, or Druids that aren't Feral, and that clearly is not, nor has it ever been, the case.

None of this is to say that Fury couldn't use a small buff, but unless every spec is going to be buffed to the level of Arms/Outlaw/Feral/WW, it's far more likely that those specs will simply be nerfed.

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Fury has a lot of good points, as has been discussed many times there are definitely a few small things that would help the playstyle a lot.

Within the next 7 days or so that balance push will go out, we can then assess what needs to happen from there. And arms will 100% be nerfed in some capacity. It's already too good, and is absolutely insane looking down the road with legendaries/tier bonuses. It's gonna get hit, potentially hard.

This.

We've similar types of of naysaying every single expansion, and during most patches. I'm not concerned.

[Bigbazz]

Not naysaying, just saying it as it is. As I already said in previous post today

ht now we have a single build of one of our specs viable on single target, but then it could get fixed within next 2 weeks

Have to be realistic though,when Blizzard lets some specs be dead while others run away with it miles ahead of anyone else and they don't do anything about it then you should not have too much faith in them to make sure everything is rosey, they don't have a good track record on class balance.

[Brakthir]

Not naysaying, just saying it as it is. As I already said in previous post today



Have to be realistic though,when Blizzard lets some specs be dead while others run away with it miles ahead of anyone else and they don't do anything about it then you should not have too much faith in them to make sure everything is rosey, they don't have a good track record on class balance.

You seem to be full of hyperbole and woe is me. It's been just a few weeks. This happens every expansion. Calm down.

[Bigbazz]

You seem to be full of hyperbole and woe is me. It's been just a few weeks. This happens every expansion. Calm down.

How is this related to what I said? How am I not calm, it's a perfectly calmly written post. Literally in the post you're quite literally quoting I am speaking about it being fixed within 2 weeks, where is the hyperbole? Maybe you need to calm down, read the posts more carefully to not misjudge the tone.