Fury Legion Discussion

[valenwood]

I play a warrior because I want to play a tough durable juggernaut, not some psychopathic suicidal idiot. There are good warriors and there are dead warriors, there are no good dead warriors. I know death is marginalized in a world where a pocket knife can bring people back to life, but playing a suicidal maniac is NOT, in my opinion, the flavor I want. All great warriors have one thing in common: they walk away from the battlefield with the other guy lying dead. Each of the three specs do this in a different way: Protection is slow and determined, avoiding blows and reducing the effects of the ones he takes through skill and endurance, allowing those with greater offensive capabilities to act with greater effectiveness. Arms is a balanced role, judging the situation with experience and foresight, striking when the strikings good, hitting hard but cautiously. Fury's defense is a strong offense. Plowing forward with such savage intensity that the opponent is always on their back foot, struggling to survive. In each case, remaining alive and whole is the key objective, it is just a matter of what toolkit they each use. If i wanted to play a glass cannon, i wouldn't choose a class who wraps themselves in welded steel. I'm going a bit full-rp, but that's the core of this mechanic isn't it? Flavor?

I'd like to see damage reduction based off of damage done (note: not a heal but a mechanic similar to ignore pain, like take 40% less damage of the next X damage taken, where X is based off the amount of damage you did in the last 10 seconds, perhaps a smallish percentage). That would embody the "good defense is a good offense" idea but would fall prey to the transition phase/kiting issue.

Honestly the stagger damage approach makes the most sense (block 50% of the dmg, deal 135% of blocked amount back over 10 sec) . It allows damage taken to be "increased". It also lends value to the promised-but-not-implemented larger healthpools (via spike dmg survival) as well as BT's heal (to help fill in the larger missing chunk) to make more of a difference when we are not in threat of being burst down by a boss mechanic. The burst dmg resistance would probably would break PvP, tho.

Here I am doing what i hate the most: publishing my pet ideas instead of focusing on what is and what should be.

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Also, I was watching the Fury Warr legendary introduction video on the front page here, and I swear i saw that each guy that was charged by the player would hang their head as if stunned. I've not heard anything on this yet, but has charge stun been returned? I know that each charge now grants rage again, but I've not heard anything on this.

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hmm, the gif here http://i.imgur.com/xpFYbsY.gifv is not indicating a stun.

[Deleted]

I can see where they are going with the talent placement.

You want AoE madness, you build X for max AoE.

You want Rage generation for Rampage spam. Build Y.

It's better than "Some choices are better" because it seems they want Warcraft to take some of that design choice from Diablo 3.

[Maltore]

I'd like to see damage reduction based off of damage done (note: not a heal but a mechanic similar to ignore pain, like take 40% less damage of the next X damage taken, where X is based off the amount of damage you did in the last 10 seconds, perhaps a smallish percentage). That would embody the "good defense is a good offense" idea but would fall prey to the transition phase/kiting issue.

Sort of like a reversed Vengence mechanic for DPS? I guess it could work. Sounds interesting...

But really, it's just another example of coming up with a complicated 'solution' to a detriment that shouldn't be there to begin with.

[Ulfhednar]

Hey Guys, sorry if that topic already showed up here, but i really wanna know if there is any possible way for us(Furry warriors) to ask blizzard to throw away that artifact weapon and please make us run after Shalamayne? hoping that i´m not the only one wishing for that!

[Murlocbait]

Hey Guys, sorry if that topic already showed up here, but i really wanna know if there is any possible way for us(Furry warriors) to ask blizzard to throw away that artifact weapon and please make us run after Shalamayne? hoping that i´m not the only one wishing for that!

You are far from the only one to mention it. You can hit up their twitter if you want, but realistically it will absolutely not happen. They are much too far into development to make that kind of change. The artifact weapons we have are the ones we are getting.

[Ulfhednar]

You are far from the only one to mention it. You can hit up their twitter if you want, but realistically it will absolutely not happen. They are much too far into development to make that kind of change. The artifact weapons we have are the ones we are getting.

Yeah, pretty sure that u are right, and i'm no even complaining about artifact we have now, its a nice one, have vrykul lore and all that, but now that we "know" that Varian will die, i just really want his sword(s), you know we are the Heroes of Azeroth, some classes are receiving big loro weapons like the ashbringer and Doom Hammer, it seems fair for me that the warriors receive one too, but anyways, thats just a dream, we all can have a few right? kk

[infinitemeridian]

So rotation is basically:

BT on cd
Raging Blow When Enraged
Rampage when not enraged
Heroic Strike (if Taken) to dump rage
Overpower when it procs

[Archimtiros]

So rotation is basically:

BT on cd
Raging Blow When Enraged
Rampage when not enraged
Heroic Strike (if Taken) to dump rage
Overpower when it procs

...Sorta. Although the talent tree gives you that possible combination, you wouldn't want to use it. Right now there are two distinct rotations: One focusing on Rampage via Carnage; and one which revolves around Heroic Strike.

Both share the same basic mechanics that you correctly identified:
1) BT on cooldown
2) Raging Blow while Enraged

The third is where they deviate:
3a) Rampage when near rage cap (regardless of Enrage, generation is fast enough you won't bother to wait for it to fall off)
3b) Heroic Strike spam during Enrage (with Dragon Roar whenever possible).
*Outside Enrage is a little quirky; Rampage is the better dump but it eats rage faster than you generate it, so you don't want to starve yourself. The decision not/to use Rampage will ultimately depend on rage generation: if it's fast enough using Rampage wont hurt you. If it's slow you'll go into Enrage without much rage and be unable to use both RB and Heroic Strike each GCD (~25 rage/s with Haste). My personal advice for the moment is to simply forgo using Rampage altogether with a Heroic Strike build, and conserve your rage outside of Enrage.

There's also a fourth step which is absolutely necessary when running Heroic Strike, but more or less optional for using Carnage:
4) Frenzy every 8-10s to maintain Haste buff. Priority wise this is more like the first-second step, but I'm not going to get into split hairs here.

Overpower is currently not worth using, it's damage is underwhelming and Endless Rage is too good to pass up. If you do use it though, you will want to use it when it procs. Likewise, while you could use both Heroic Strike and Carnage, you're just limiting yourself. You'll only get half benefit out of each, when you could be seeing better gains by using Dragon Roar with Heroic Strike and Unquenchable Thirst with Carnage. Also, don't bother with Storm Bolt unless you're stuck outside of Enrage, Raging Blow is just plain better, even with the rage cost.

[regularspecial]

Is reckless abandon just no good when compared to DR and carnage?

The CDs on it and DR are similar, and the duration of the buffs similar also, so what's making DR the better choice?

[Archimtiros]

Is reckless abandon just no good when compared to DR and carnage?

The CDs on it and DR are similar, and the duration of the buffs similar also, so what's making DR the better choice?

It's not terrible, but it's not terribly exciting either, because many of it's benefits are supplanted by other effects.

The high rage generation we get out of talents means the 100 rage boost isn't quite as useful, especially since you won't be able to use it for an instant high powered Carnage. With a Heroic Strike-Frenzy build using rage talents, you're already hard pressed to spend all your rage, so having more isn't really beneficial. If you could use it with Carnage, or there was a non-HS/Carnage Rampage build, maybe it would see some use, but the primary Fury builds just don't have any way to spend all that rage, and doesn't explicitly need the Crit right now.

The 30s cooldown doesn't make it line up any better with any other abilities such as Bladestorm, and in fact Dragon Roar being buff rather than a debuff makes it amazing for AoE.

As for Dragon Roar, it lasts longer with a shorter cooldown, and although 20% increased damage isn't as good as a guaranteed crit by itself, you have to consider the fact that you can still crit during DR without Recklessness, which isn't all that rare with a ~40% uptime on Berserking.

Of course, a lot of this could change depending on how Artifact traits turn out. I suspect Unrivaled Strength is meant to affect Recklessness, and that could easily put Reckless Assault over the top for single target damage. Odyn's Champion will be another interesting mechanic to keep an eye on.

[regularspecial]

How much do we use rampage when talenting heroic strike? If they compete enough, do you think we'll abandon HS if Odyn's procs often enough?

[Archimtiros]

How much do we use rampage when talenting heroic strike? If they compete enough, do you think we'll abandon HS if Odyn's procs often enough?

Covered that here:

3b) Heroic Strike spam during Enrage (with Dragon Roar whenever possible).
*Outside Enrage is a little quirky; Rampage is the better dump but it eats rage faster than you generate it, so you don't want to starve yourself. The decision not/to use Rampage will ultimately depend on rage generation: if it's fast enough using Rampage wont hurt you. If it's slow you'll go into Enrage without much rage and be unable to use both RB and Heroic Strike each GCD (~25 rage/s with Haste). My personal advice for the moment is to simply forgo using Rampage altogether with a Heroic Strike build, and conserve your rage outside of Enrage.

Regarding Odyn's Champion, it's hard to say and really depends on how the proc works. It'll probably be a set RPPM which means you could game the timer and only use Rampage when it's "available", but if it goes live the way it is, or has anything like the proc rate Berserking does, it could very well kill the spec from a competitive standpoint.

However, it's all supposition at this point, and it's highly probable that the effect could change or be removed before we have access to it, so I'm not spending too much time on it until then. As I noted in my official feedback post, a number of our abilities don't play nicely together, especially during the Execute phase, so hopefully they will take that into regard and change things up a bit to improve our rotational quality of life.

[scsc0rp]

Carnage becomes much less attractive if Odyn's Champion is not on a PPM. I'd be trying to pump out as many rampage's as possible.

How does the additional rage generation from frenzy compare with enraging blows?

[Archimtiros]

Carnage becomes much less attractive if Odyn's Champion is not on a PPM. I'd be trying to pump out as many rampage's as possible.

How does the additional rage generation from frenzy compare with enraging blows?

I'm absolutely positive it will be, nearly every proc in the game is RPPM now. I could probably dig through the spell data and find out, I just don't care at the moment as it's unavailable.

Concerning Carnage... it really isn't as limiting as you'd think. Spending your full rage bar may sound like it should be slow, as Arms Execute phase is, however in practice it's anything but.
First, there's just no good build* which uses Rampage without Carnage; you could use Dragon Roar or Recklessness but the limited time windows really do not favor the way Rampage deals damage over a 2s timeframe.
Second, the greatly increased Rage generation actually causes you to use Rampage quite often; in practice I use it about every 4th GCD (5-6s) during Enrage. It already requires me to push back Bloodthirst, and honestly I can't see Rampage being used much more often, as it's actually quite fast already.

*The only build that would is the full AoE build utilizing Dragon Roar, Bladestorm and Avatar. It leaves you with the choice of standard Rampage and Heroic Strike, but unfortunately precludes the use of Endless Rage, Enraging Blow or Frenzy, meaning you don't have enough rage generation to make very effective use of either of them. This is a prime example of why I've railed against our talent tree design: I don't want to be forced into playing a broken, half-assed rotation because the fight needs burst AoE. It's not about being good at everything, but rather having a fun, stable rotation that works regardless of which talents we choose; aka nearly every other talent tree in the game.

[Deleted]

I play a warrior because I want to play a tough durable juggernaut, not some psychopathic suicidal idiot. There are good warriors and there are dead warriors, there are no good dead warriors. I know death is marginalized in a world where a pocket knife can bring people back to life, but playing a suicidal maniac is NOT, in my opinion, the flavor I want. All great warriors have one thing in common: they walk away from the battlefield with the other guy lying dead. Each of the three specs do this in a different way: Protection is slow and determined, avoiding blows and reducing the effects of the ones he takes through skill and endurance, allowing those with greater offensive capabilities to act with greater effectiveness. Arms is a balanced role, judging the situation with experience and foresight, striking when the strikings good, hitting hard but cautiously. Fury's defense is a strong offense. Plowing forward with such savage intensity that the opponent is always on their back foot, struggling to survive. In each case, remaining alive and whole is the key objective, it is just a matter of what toolkit they each use. If i wanted to play a glass cannon, i wouldn't choose a class who wraps themselves in welded steel. I'm going a bit full-rp, but that's the core of this mechanic isn't it? Flavor?

warriors is a broad term. it covers many different styles and ways of fighting relay. a samurai is as much of a warrior as a ancient Norse berserker. they just approach things differently. a samurai picks his shots uses experience and kills efficiently. a Norse berserker takes drugs starts salivating and charges into a fight first swinging like a mad man until nothing is left standing or he dies and goes to Valhalla.

that how I think fury should feel. you go mental and start swinging until everything is dead or you die. you sacrifice safety to decimate the enemy. just make us very very active with many apm

arms should feel like the hound or the mountain from game of thrones big powerful war veterans who know how to fight efficiently. dont agree with rage for an arms warrior if we are talking about class flavour some other resource bar sure thats basically just fury renamed would make more sense for arms. Or just have a rotation sort of with no resource bar at all so they can strike as and when they feel fit but dictated to by cooldowns. with a chance on crit to not trigger cool downs or something like that. i mean a veteran knight isnt going to wait untill you make him angry enough to smack you in the face with a giant mace. he would see an opening and crush your face. but then they might feel abit retribution esque. but would fit the class discription for me.

[Deleted]

Wouldn't Endless Rage + Enraging Blows + Heroic Strike be insanely strong? Raging Blow = 400% + Heroic Strike = 260% * 1.1 (cuz enrage) = 726% that costs 0 rage every 1.5 seconds cuz Raging Blow regenerates 15 Rage and Heroic Strike costing 15 rage. Since Heroic Strike is getting CD is reduced by Haste aswell it would line up perfectly for them to macro those 2 together. Spend Rage on Rampage (which you get from AA and Bloodthirst).

[Archimtiros]

Wouldn't Endless Rage + Enraging Blows + Heroic Strike be insanely strong? Raging Blow = 400% + Heroic Strike = 260% * 1.1 (cuz enrage) = 726% that costs 0 rage every 1.5 seconds cuz Raging Blow regenerates 15 Rage and Heroic Strike costing 15 rage. Since Heroic Strike is getting CD is reduced by Haste aswell it would line up perfectly for them to macro those 2 together. Spend Rage on Rampage (which you get from AA and Bloodthirst).

Raging Blow generates 10 not 15, so it would actually cost you 5 rage per GCD, but it doesn't matter because you'd end up rage capping. While you could help this by using Rampage, it's not really in your best interest, as Heroic Strike is twice as much DPR inside Enrage, and due to how fast rage is generated, you're not going to be able to wait till Enrage falls off to use Rampage (if it falls off at all).

The rage cost of Raging Blow is trivial, so it's much better to go Frenzy so that you can spam Heroic Strike (and Raging Blow along with it) even more. Heroic Strike is also heavily reliant on Enrage, so the reduced cooldown on Bloodthirst helps a good deal.

[Deleted]

Raging Blow generates 10 not 15, so it would actually cost you 5 rage per GCD, but it doesn't matter because you'd end up rage capping. While you could help this by using Rampage, it's not really in your best interest, as Heroic Strike is twice as much DPR inside Enrage, and due to how fast rage is generated, you're not going to be able to wait till Enrage falls off to use Rampage (if it falls off at all).

The rage cost of Raging Blow is trivial, so it's much better to go Frenzy so that you can spam Heroic Strike (and Raging Blow along with it) even more. Heroic Strike is also heavily reliant on Enrage, so the reduced cooldown on Bloodthirst helps a good deal.

With Endless Rage you generate 50% more so that 10 from Enraging Blows would become 15, right?

[Archimtiros]

With Endless Rage you generate 50% more so that 10 from Enraging Blows would become 15, right?

No, Endless Rage only applies to auto-attack swings.

[Deleted]

No, Endless Rage only applies to auto-attack swings.

Oh thats unfortunate. Thanks for the clarification!