Legion - Outlaw Discussion

[Grundhil]

Ornyx didn't say "Outlaw is fine" in that post though.

They said that RTB is the spec defining ability and like how the ability plays out.

Then follows up with the whole "no ETA" thing. They are stringing us along.

[TheRogue]

hes right about RtB tho
it's fine
is RnG part of it? yes sure, was RnG ever not a part of dps? no


the only reason it seems terrible is because outlaw dmg is so low that only with great rolls can we do good dmg, that wasnt the case before the nerfs.

I agree *in part* with the assertion that before the dmg and energy nerf we were OK(ish).

My main issue is that its RNG that costs us damage in the most pure sense of the word. RNG is a part of every class, yes, but RtB RNG has to be activated. We mortgage up to 900k finishers for a small chance at a decent 2+ buff.

Fire mages have bad luck protection, which I think we should have too. They still deal damage with fireball trying to get their hot streak and have myriad tools to generate a crit, which is something I think Outlaw needed.

But his statement that " We’re happy with how it’s played out, and there are very few class mechanics that can rival the excitement of getting that elusive 6-buff at just the right time."

Just displays an amazing amount of ignorance from whichever dev actually told him to say that. Roll the bones does not exist inside a vacuum where a 6 roll means you win...

When getting 6 buffs feels like a loss its a bad skill.

you get a 6 roll on the trash pack before a boss = lose
you get a 6 roll your first roll out of the heart phase on ilgynoth = lose
you get a 6 roll on elerethe before she phases to the next platform = lose
you get a 6 roll then you get a chain of 1s that undo it = lose

Even before the energy and damage nerf this was a problem, and his whole bullshit reasoning of the SnD opt out was pretty poor.

The whole response smacks of low priority despite the huge thread and *mostly* constructive criticism of RtB and its lack of fun.

Whereas the devs go on the mage discord and in 2 days have a nerf reverted/buff going out.

I have swapped to assassination but this still infuriates me no end, to have a month of feedback and good ideas be 95% ignored.

[shaunika123]

I agree *in part* with the assertion that before the dmg and energy nerf we were OK(ish).

My main issue is that its RNG that costs us damage in the most pure sense of the word. RNG is a part of every class, yes, but RtB RNG has to be activated. We mortgage up to 900k finishers for a small chance at a decent 2+ buff.

Fire mages have bad luck protection, which I think we should have too. They still deal damage with fireball trying to get their hot streak and have myriad tools to generate a crit, which is something I think Outlaw needed.

But his statement that " We’re happy with how it’s played out, and there are very few class mechanics that can rival the excitement of getting that elusive 6-buff at just the right time."

Just displays an amazing amount of ignorance from whichever dev actually told him to say that. Roll the bones does not exist inside a vacuum where a 6 roll means you win...

When getting 6 buffs feels like a loss its a bad skill.

you get a 6 roll on the trash pack before a boss = lose
you get a 6 roll your first roll out of the heart phase on ilgynoth = lose
you get a 6 roll on elerethe before she phases to the next platform = lose
you get a 6 roll then you get a chain of 1s that undo it = lose

Even before the energy and damage nerf this was a problem, and his whole bullshit reasoning of the SnD opt out was pretty poor.

The whole response smacks of low priority despite the huge thread and *mostly* constructive criticism of RtB and its lack of fun.

Whereas the devs go on the mage discord and in 2 days have a nerf reverted/buff going out.

I have swapped to assassination but this still infuriates me no end, to have a month of feedback and good ideas be 95% ignored.

well i mean, soul capa proccing at the wrong time was a loss too, again not anything new.

i agree we could have some badluck protection like firemages, but comparing yourself to the level of absurd brokenness that is fire right now is not healthy, you'll never be happy if you want to achieve that. if our damage OUTSIDE rolls was high then we could deal with bad rolls just like we did before, our RTs actually used to hit hard so we werent terribly upset if our rolls werent great, but now we're much more reliant on it and that's a problem.

[TheRogue]

well i mean, soul capa proccing at the wrong time was a loss too, again not anything new.

i agree we could have some badluck protection like firemages, but comparing yourself to the level of absurd brokenness that is fire right now is not healthy, you'll never be happy if you want to achieve that. if our damage OUTSIDE rolls was high then we could deal with bad rolls just like we did before, our RTs actually used to hit hard so we werent terribly upset if our rolls werent great, but now we're much more reliant on it and that's a problem.

Yeah I made myself mad with that comparison, but its all I could think of at work lol.

Reverting the damage and energy nerfs would be a good start, and making SnD stronger as an opt out would be a good start too.

[RobertoCarlos]

Slice and dice is a lvl100 talent that causes you to do less dps than if you had chosen nothing. If that isn't bad/lazy game design I dunno what is. They should not be this obsessed with sticking roll the bones down people's thoart and let players have at least one option to work around rtb rng for the player who wants to be more consistent in raids

[shaunika123]

Slice and dice is a lvl100 talent that causes you to do less dps than if you had chosen nothing. If that isn't bad/lazy game design I dunno what is. They should not be this obsessed with sticking roll the bones down people's thoart and let players have at least one option to work around rtb rng for the player who wants to be more consistent in raids

SND is a dps loss by design tho
if it wasnt RtB wouldnt be relevant, and then what's the point?

it's there so people who prefer to not play the admittedly controversial playstyle of RtB have the option, it should NEVER be better or even equal to RtB because let's face it, RtB however random it might be, takes infinitely more skill to play with than pressing a button every 45 seconds.

i fucking loathed combat, it was one of the dullest ,most agonizing specs to play especially compared to sub, im so glad blizzard found a creative way to make the spec dynamic, i love how every roll alters my rotation, i love how i have to play around what i roll and know the fights and when i can and can not reroll. if i had to play slice and dice i'd rather vendor my dreadblades.

[Maelstrom51]

RtB takes zero skill, just knowledge of when to keep or reroll. Its the same shit as ever, just with more RNG involved.

They should swap RtB and Slice and Dice.

[Earll]

RtB takes zero skill, just knowledge of when to keep or reroll. Its the same shit as ever, just with more RNG involved.

They should swap RtB and Slice and Dice.

Thats just not true though. Knowledge is definitely a part of skill, but RtB also requires more skill than slice and dice since you want to manage it properly together with cooldowns. Granted this will have a minimal impact on DPS and will generally not be that hard to do 99.9% effectively, but its still a very different ballgame than slice and dice.

I am guessing this most recent respond from blues means I should not expect any buffs around 7.1 and its time to go sin though? Imo the RNG from roll the bones is fine, sometimes its sucks, sometimes its great, but it also evens out. The issue outlaw has is its underperforming, and the reason why its extra shitty is that blizzard nerfed it from the top rogue spec to the worst rogue spec right as mythic raiding started (And then sort of strung us a long making us thing we might get a buff but that also seems to not be happening now?)

Reliability is obviously a good thing, but having specs that are less reliable is fine. The problem is that a less reliable spec (like outlaw) should compensate by having higher average dps, or you would just prefer higher reliability, but right now outlaw is both unreliable and at the bottom of the pack in terms of DPS. Even with 6 rolls you are going to be barely competing with the top contenders of much more reliable classes.

Are there even any other classes who close to as much RNG as outlaw rogues do in terms of getting a 6 roll every 50 fights that will increase your DPS by like 30% or something stupid? It feels like given how outlaw rogues work, most of the fights on warcraftlogs should have outlaws in the top, just because 1 in every 50-100 fights we should be gods. But there is literally 0 outlaw rogues in top 10 on any fight right now. (I guess only fight that has melee is nythendra though.)

[Notter]

Well, we finally got an answer.
too bad it took a whole month to get a "we agree the dps is kinda low, dunno what to do about it yet".

i never had issues with RtB, but i have lost faith that they know how to handle outlaw.
and since i had the same issues with Windwalker in the previous expansion, where they never figures out a solution...
I'll be getting off this rollercoaster, and just using Assassination.

that sucks though, cause outlaw was a lot of fun.
RIP outlaw.

[Xanatu]

Well, we finally got an answer.
too bad it took a whole month to get a "we agree the dps is kinda low, dunno what to do about it yet".

i never had issues with RtB, but i have lost faith that they know how to handle outlaw.
and since i had the same issues with Windwalker in the previous expansion, where they never figures out a solution...
I'll be getting off this rollercoaster, and just using Assassination.

that sucks though, cause outlaw was a lot of fun.
RIP outlaw.

I'm confused as to how they don't know what to do about it. Make our abilities do more damage?

[shaunika123]

I'm confused as to how they don't know what to do about it. Make our abilities do more damage?

yeah but which abilities, by how much it's not that easy
they nerfed 2 artifact traits by a small amount and we went from great to mediocre at best.

balance is not as easy as it looks :P

[Xanatu]

yeah but which abilities, by how much it's not that easy
they nerfed 2 artifact traits by a small amount and we went from great to mediocre at best.

balance is not as easy as it looks :P

Balance is difficult, but up-tuning individual spec damage is not rocket science. They have a staff of hundreds of people, one of them can sit down for a few hours and think of non-game breaking ways to make outlaw a bit stronger. Flat damage buff to SS, energy cost reduction to SS, reduce % chance to miss autos, lower energy cost on finishers. They're paid to be able to make changes like this without ruining the class.

[ymirsson]

They don't even need to sit down, i am quite sure they have applications and test server set up for such tasks.

[Wow]

Im sure the truth of it is they weren't planning on doing anything but we complained so hard they are going to do some minor buff to shut people up.

[Maelstrom51]

yeah but which abilities, by how much it's not that easy
they nerfed 2 artifact traits by a small amount and we went from great to mediocre at best.

balance is not as easy as it looks :P

By a small amount? One of the nerfs reduced 45% of our damage by 12%. Even just that nerf is not small.

[Deleted]

RtB takes zero skill, just knowledge of when to keep or reroll. Its the same shit as ever, just with more RNG involved.

They should swap RtB and Slice and Dice.

RTB is a core mechanic of the spec and anyone who wants SnD to be a dps gain over RTB is just being silly. If you hate RTB that much then you should just play another spec as RTB is here to stay for Legion.

[Xanatu]

RTB is a core mechanic of the spec and anyone who wants SnD to be a dps gain over RTB is just being silly. If you hate RTB that much then you should just play another spec as RTB is here to stay for Legion.

Seriously. This is the heart and soul of Outlaw. I'm not sure why anyone who hates RTB would still want to play Outlaw. Just switch.

[shaunika123]

By a small amount? One of the nerfs reduced 45% of our damage by 12%. Even just that nerf is not small.

well no it didnt even with 6 points in FT it was only about an 8% nerf to RT dmg

[Eazy]

Seriously. This is the heart and soul of Outlaw. I'm not sure why anyone who hates RTB would still want to play Outlaw. Just switch.

I think it's because of two things:
1. Outlaw was promised to be the best spec according to sims, and it was actaully pretty strong, so people used tons of AP on it and got BiS relics... and then they nerfed it to the ground.
2. It has really high RNG involved. I don't think that any spec should have as much RNG. This makes logs totally incomparable, on one fight you can get 2x 6 buffs and plenty of +2 buffs, on another fight you can get 4-5 times one buff in a row during bloodlust/potion phase. The differences in DPS shouldn't be that huge only because of luck.

But that's just my opinion, you can agree or not.

yeah but which abilities, by how much it's not that easy
they nerfed 2 artifact traits by a small amount and we went from great to mediocre at best.

balance is not as easy as it looks :P

You can call me an idiot, but they could just buff the abilities they nerfed and we would have the same thing. I mean - not to buff them as much as they were before(so they wouldn't need to nerf them in the next patch, duuh?).

[Xanatu]

I think it's because of two things:
1. Outlaw was promised to be the best spec according to sims, and it was actaully pretty strong, so people used tons of AP on it and got BiS relics... and then they nerfed it to the ground.
2. It has really high RNG involved. I don't think that any spec should have as much RNG. This makes logs totally incomparable, on one fight you can get 2x 6 buffs and plenty of +2 buffs, on another fight you can get 4-5 times one buff in a row during bloodlust/potion phase. The differences in DPS shouldn't be that huge only because of luck.

But that's just my opinion, you can agree or not.

I think it's probably the first one, good call. I guess people don't want to change. I feel half-invested but I also just really like the spec, that's why I'm always pushing for it. If I didn't like it I'd just bite the bullet I think.