Legion - Outlaw Discussion

[Vigilate]

It seems that Blizz is pretty happy with Outlaw's current state as they are just doing minor changes now or even some damage tuning (eg Ambush damage increased).

I believe there are some missed opportunities to improve Outlaw talents (eg Ghostly Strike) and Roll the Bones.

I wouldn't go that far. The mechanical workings of Roll the Bones have been changing almost every build lately. I'd expect even more changes next build for the ability.

[Mafic]

I wouldn't go that far. The mechanical workings of Roll the Bones have been changing almost every build lately. I'd expect even more changes next build for the ability.

That is true. But it seems like that Blizz is content with Outlaw talents, but frankly I don't see it compared to other specs on alpha that are seeing iterations on talents. In a way, I suppose it could be worse if they mess too much with the talents. However, there are several talents that are clearly sore spots where players would not really consider ever.

[Deleted]

I'm slightly worried about Outlaw in pvp. Not worried about damage because that tuning will come. Mostly worried about survivability and mobility.

About survivability:
Outlaw having Riposte which is a worse version of Evasion defensive wise. There are literally no defensive cooldowns against ranged attacks. Ok vanish in some situations but both vanish and riposte have a long cooldown and no more preparation. It was ok when between the eyes had no cooldown and blind was long with 20 sec cooldown. Now that blind seems to have 4 sec duration in pvp (according to some duel videos) and between the eyes is 20 sec cooldown Outlaws are starting to look kinda weak. And it should be the spec that can fight toe-to-toe.

About mobility:
I think grappling hook should maybe be baseline and the talent replaced with maybe something that makes it root targets or something. You could get some additional mobility or control from that talent tier. Grappling hook is already kinda hard to use to catch fast moving targets. I also think Pistol shot energy cost should be reduced to make it more reliable and less forgiving for slowing targets outside of procs. It does so little damage that there should be no worry about reducing the cost.

Also worried that you will be forced to have Roll the bones for pvp because of Slice and dice being in the same tier with Marked for death and Death from above. But will have to see how that turns out. Just sucks to be stuck with RNG finisher.

[Wow]

I'm slightly worried about Outlaw in pvp. Not worried about damage because that tuning will come. Mostly worried about survivability and mobility.

About survivability:
Outlaw having Riposte which is a worse version of Evasion defensive wise. There are literally no defensive cooldowns against ranged attacks. Ok vanish in some situations but both vanish and riposte have a long cooldown and no more preparation. It was ok when between the eyes had no cooldown and blind was long with 20 sec cooldown. Now that blind seems to have 4 sec duration in pvp (according to some duel videos) and between the eyes is 20 sec cooldown Outlaws are starting to look kinda weak. And it should be the spec that can fight toe-to-toe.

I think True Bearing is their answer to this. Note it says 20sec but its 2sec per cp. It's rng which buff you will get when but it does lower the cd on almost everything base and talent.

[Feril]

I also think Pistol shot energy cost should be reduced to make it more reliable and less forgiving for slowing targets outside of procs. It does so little damage that there should be no worry about reducing the cost.

I'd rather it had 30 yard range, to be honest. 20 yards? Really Blizzard?

[Mafic]

I'd rather it had 30 yard range, to be honest. 20 yards? Really Blizzard?

I like this suggestion.

Additional suggestions for Outlaw:

Run Through - Increase range from 8 yards to 10 yards.
Distract - Minor glyph that has you throwing bottles at target location
Riposte- Add a small damage reduction to it (eg 5%) along with the parry chance
Ghostly Strike - Reduce energy cost to 55 energy.
Grappling Hook - Speed up animation to be twice as fast
Acrobatic Strikes - In addition to current effects reduces the duration of roots and snares by 20%
Parley - Usable against targets in combat
Prey on the Weak (Outlaw) - Include Cheap Shot with Gouge and Blind.
Dirty Tricks - In addition to current effects makes Crimson Vial cost no energy
Alacrity - Build up stacks of Alacrity per finisher faster this way instead: 1/3/5/7/9/11/13/15/17/19/21/23/25. So 13 finishers to reach full stack of 25% haste instead of the 25 finishers to reach 25% haste currently.
Slice and Dice - In addition to current effects, reduces cool down of Adrenaline Rush by 1 sec per combo point used.
Death From Above - Reduce energy cost by 50%.

Just throwing stuff out there.

[Feril]

(Reposting this suggestion/idea here from that other thread I made...)

So in Legion, outlaw rogues retain the same mastery as combat today: Main Gauche, a chance to do an automatic attack and regenerate some energy.

In the current implementation, Main Gauche seems to have one of those new and cool attack animations with a yellow trail, but that bothers me. Those animations should be reserved for ACTIVE abilities. Having them pop up with an auto-attack diminishes their strength as feedback of a button press.

I'm thinking of some changes to the mastery, from easier (cosmetic) changes to do to deeper mechanic changes:

• At the very least, they should change the color of the trail to something different from Saber Slash. That way the yellow trail can act properly as feedback of using Saber Slash, and you'd clearly associate the new trail with procs form Main Gauche.

• Next, they could change the animation to a dagger stab (using the new animations they use for subtlety). A main gauche is supposed to be a hidden dagger, after all (not that I'd like to be absolutely literal, but it could be cool). The bad part of this would be that i'd be weird to see the off hand changing to a dagger constantly. Maybe using the stab animation with whatever weapon you have could do the trick. Of course, this change would come with its differently colored trail.

• A deeper change would be scrapping the autoattack proc and making Pistol Shots procs from Saber Slash the mastery (it would need a new name I guess). Each proc would give you a free Pistol Shot charge (free ammo!) up to some maximum, off the global cooldown. This way outlaw mastery would be a bit more interactive and active, and could lead to strategic Pistol Shot energy pooling (I guess free shots could retain the energy regeneration part of Main Gauche) instead of just using Pistol Shot procs whenever they're up.

So, what do you think? Remember, these are several not necessarily connected ideas. The main thing I'd like is a greater differentiation of Main Gauche procs from Saber Slashes, but it's cool to think of deeper changes.

[Squirl]

I think we either need a new mastery that's not based on auto attack procs but still generates energy, or SnD and RtB should not be mutually exclusive. It's pretty clear that they want us to use RtB, but energy regen from MG and Combat Potency is severely hindered without SnD. This makes the spec incredibly slow without cooldowns up, moreso than ever in the spec's history.

Additionally, the frequency of those cooldowns is heavily RNG-based because of the Restless Blades buff on RtB, but that's a different issue.

I'm not going to comment on animations because I'm indifferent. It's a valid concern I guess, but I get all the feedback I need to play from my UI rather than my animations. I'm just glad we're finally getting some spells that look cool.

[Feril]

I'm not going to comment on animations because I'm indifferent. It's a valid concern I guess, but I get all the feedback I need to play from my UI rather than my animations. I'm just glad we're finally getting some spells that look cool.

Sometimes I just hide all my interface for a minute or so, and it's like deep breathing fresh air... but then I don't know what I'm really doing and what's happening. It's really a lose-lose situation (at least for me): either you don't see your character "doing things" or you don't see important information regarding those "things done"

[sayewonn]

Just some rough thoughts about the talent tree

-speed up the grappling hook animation
-speed up the animation of death from above, reduce the energy cost to 35

-riposte, reduce the cooldown to 90 seconds. If this is supposed to be the spec that goes toe to toe it makes no sense that our main defensive cooldown is the same length as evasion for the other specs

-Blade Flurry should be reverted back to its 4.0 state where it had a short cooldown. It should still hit all targets within range with a small damage boost. As it is now the other specs will never be able to compete on AOE damage.

-Ghostly Strike should have a glyph that brings back the dodge percentage increase with a 15 second cooldown. It would really be a helpful tool for soloing and increase base survivability.

-Slice and Dice should be baked into Roll the Bones baseline. SnD was always a boring ability and its obvious they want to make it more exciting. Roll the bones should have a baseline 25% attack speed increase plus the added effects. Slice and Dice gone they can add another interesting talent to the tree. It should also be a default 3 buffs at once rather than the random 1,3,5.

-They really need to replace the level 75 row, those are PVP abilities or glyphs at best.

-Alacrity should stack in 3% increments up to 8 times to build up the full amount.

-There should be a pistol based finishing move we can add to our rotation to better make the damn gun a part of the class. Maybe a pistol based dot for those that want it.

[Deleted]

Animations

the shot still needs some work but is a lot better I think.
crimson vial- let us get health, quick swallow the sword bob!

[Skayaq]

Pistol Shot and Between the Eyes looks like you shoot with the sword and it then magically turns into a pistol. SnD animation is quite fitting to the ability, underwhelming and boring. Rest looks cool.

[Rekuja]

Not in beta but I've been watching some videos/streams - am I the only one that feels this spec is very messy? Rogue has always been a class with a very control-style gameplay, very smooth transitions and you always feel "in control" of what you're doing, even if your target breaks from your cc or makes unpredictable choices.

Outlaw seems like it's all over the place? or am i trippin balls right now?

I'll probably stick with Assassination as that's my go-to spec for every expansion, but I do love the style of Outlaw.

[Mafic]

(Reposting this suggestion/idea here from that other thread I made...)

So in Legion, outlaw rogues retain the same mastery as combat today: Main Gauche, a chance to do an automatic attack and regenerate some energy.

In the current implementation, Main Gauche seems to have one of those new and cool attack animations with a yellow trail, but that bothers me. Those animations should be reserved for ACTIVE abilities. Having them pop up with an auto-attack diminishes their strength as feedback of a button press.

I'm thinking of some changes to the mastery, from easier (cosmetic) changes to do to deeper mechanic changes:

• At the very least, they should change the color of the trail to something different from Saber Slash. That way the yellow trail can act properly as feedback of using Saber Slash, and you'd clearly associate the new trail with procs form Main Gauche.

• Next, they could change the animation to a dagger stab (using the new animations they use for subtlety). A main gauche is supposed to be a hidden dagger, after all (not that I'd like to be absolutely literal, but it could be cool). The bad part of this would be that i'd be weird to see the off hand changing to a dagger constantly. Maybe using the stab animation with whatever weapon you have could do the trick. Of course, this change would come with its differently colored trail.

• A deeper change would be scrapping the autoattack proc and making Pistol Shots procs from Saber Slash the mastery (it would need a new name I guess). Each proc would give you a free Pistol Shot charge (free ammo!) up to some maximum, off the global cooldown. This way outlaw mastery would be a bit more interactive and active, and could lead to strategic Pistol Shot energy pooling (I guess free shots could retain the energy regeneration part of Main Gauche) instead of just using Pistol Shot procs whenever they're up.

So, what do you think? Remember, these are several not necessarily connected ideas. The main thing I'd like is a greater differentiation of Main Gauche procs from Saber Slashes, but it's cool to think of deeper changes.

1. I agree they should make MG procs slashes an orange trail as an example However, since Warriors are using orange slashing animations I think Blizz wants Outlaw to stands out flavor wise so they are not compared to Fury Warriors visual style.

2. The dagger stab they probably don't want to do as that is the old MG animation (under or over hand stab) anyways.

3. Masteries tend to be something that scale, but it would be more interesting if they increased the interaction of Pistol shot with Saber Slash and Run Through.

I like some of these ideas but at this point I think Blizz has moved beyond major changes to the flavor of the spec. They are now looking more at talents and base line abilities.

- - - Updated - - -

Animations

the shot still needs some work but is a lot better I think.
crimson vial- let us get health, quick swallow the sword bob!

Most of the animations look good. Pistol Shot is obviously still being worked on and Grappling Hook is not yet in.

[Deleted]

Would really love to see outlaw animations on belf male. If anyone in the alpha has spare time in their hands, I would be very grateful.

[Deleted]

Would really love to see outlaw animations on belf male. If anyone in the alpha has spare time in their hands, I would be very grateful.

Here you go bro.


concerns: subtlety relies very much on stealth
outlaw feels weak in PvP. Needs some kind of buff as outlaw is more toe to toe instead of 'stealth to toe'. what can happen is that this buff may also affect subtlety, making sub way more stronger.

[Feril]

Hmmm, I'm not really digging the new attack animations on the move. They look weird with the character's legs just running as usual.

I think they should invest a bit on kind of "jump-step" animations for each new attack for when they're triggered while running. It's really bad to see a torso doing big side to side movements while the legs are going forward, completely unfazed.

Also, pistol shot while running doesn't look very bad, but the character arcs back his back a bit too much, I think.

Damn, I wish I could try those animations by myself!

[Mafic]

Here you go bro.


concerns: subtlety relies very much on stealth
outlaw feels weak in PvP. Needs some kind of buff as outlaw is more toe to toe instead of 'stealth to toe'. what can happen is that this buff may also affect subtlety, making sub way more stronger.

This is why Outlaw received Cheap Shot back and Sub with Blind back. Still, Rogues are still going to rely on openers for PVE soloing and PVP it seems.

[Deleted]

Thanks mate.

[Mafic]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...4760?page=2#29

Interesting change to Roll the Bones that will come with the build after this upcoming build. Basically six dice instead of the five. That makes things very interesting to say the least.