Legion - Outlaw Discussion

[Deleted]

Solution: Badass Gun Swords

[Mafic]

I don't understand the hate for Pistol Shot personally; it's a ranged snare / CP generator that means we can still dump energy and build CP whilst out of range.

Adding it as a proc for free CP / damage makes the rotation more engaging.

Our base rotation in WoD is ; SS + RS & SnD to maintain buffs, using Cooldowns when appropriate.

Our base rotation for Legion is; SS + RtB (or SnD) to maintain buffs, using PS on proc and Cooldowns when appropriate.

I think this is an improvement on the WoD base rotation, but what's lacking is the engagement added by Restless Blades (and the interaction with fishing for MfD resets) along with the - albeit flawed - management of Bandit's Guile.

The base rotation has been improved, but the gameplay outside of that is much less engaging in my view.

I think they should turn Bribe into something more than a 30 minute cool down gimmick. A 30 minute gimmick cool down runs completely counter to the pruning they are doing in Legion to stream line things. I noticed that the Bribe artifact talent is gone too, so it looks like Bribe is nearing its death bed with each alpha build it becomes more and more irrelevant.

[mindghosts]

I don't understand the hate for Pistol Shot personally; it's a ranged snare / CP generator that means we can still dump energy and build CP whilst out of range.

Adding it as a proc for free CP / damage makes the rotation more engaging.

Our base rotation in WoD is ; SS + RS & SnD to maintain buffs, using Cooldowns when appropriate.

Our base rotation for Legion is; SS + RtB (or SnD) to maintain buffs, using PS on proc and Cooldowns when appropriate.

I think this is an improvement on the WoD base rotation, but what's lacking is the engagement added by Restless Blades (and the interaction with fishing for MfD resets) along with the - albeit flawed - management of Bandit's Guile.

The base rotation has been improved, but the gameplay outside of that is much less engaging in my view.

Because the proc doesn't actually DO anything, I don't find it engaging whatsoever. Does it even hit harder than SS? If no, why should I bother? Sure Blunderbuss enhances it a bit, but that's random RNG. Quick draw improves it a little, but why should I have to waste a talent on making it worthwhile?

Free energy for an ability that does absolutely fuck all? I get it, when energy capped it might be good to use, granted it's procced at the precise moment where I need it but... With the haste talents I don't even appear to be struggling with that problem.

It doesn't add an interesting buff or debuff, it doesn't enhance the snare in any way, it doesn't seem hit hard, it doesn't appear to be doing anything even remotely interesting. It's not even off the GCD. And of course, where'd the gun even come from? Why not let us wield a sword and a gun as some form of talent instead? Druids had that talent where they turned into the half cat thing, it's quite an aesthetic talent and adds a new type of game play - we could have been given the same treatment. But no, our talents all suck and are boring as balls. "Your chore builder has a 15% higher chance of hitting again" like really?


Of course that's just me, I don't mean any offense to you for liking it. I just don't.. get it.

They just could have done so much with this, redesigning rogues for the first time in forever and they did absolutely nothing. Everything seems so uninspiring and boring. Like they just have no clue what the hell they're doing.

[Mafic]

I love the Pistol Shot proc. It is a better version of the Riposte proc in that you can use it in your DPS rotation. It also allow you think more about how to use your CP and energy. To me I like Pistol Shot way better than Bandit's Guile to an extent.

Outlaw's base core kit is probably one of the best spec in Legion with so much diversity with melee and range attacks (Pistol Shot vs Saber Slash, Killing Spree vs Cannon Ball Barrage). Many specs have either a focus on range or mobility while Outlaw has a combination of both (Sprint + Grappling hook).

The problem is that the talents are very meh compared to other classes and specs in the game. You could play Outlaw Rogue without any of the talents (exception being Grappling Hook) and you wouldn't notice a significant difference. That is good that the core of Outlaw is strong, but it is bad at how little impact the talents have.

Sub on the other hand is heavily reliant on talents to make a smooth rotation given how RNG Shadow Dance charges are to generate or to avoid being energy starved.

[ro9ue]

I think Outlaw is actually my favorite spec now of the three. Roll the Bones is really cool. I like Grappling Hook. Swords > Daggers visually.

Having a pistol is fucking amazing.

Good spec from what I've played so far.

[Deleted]

It kind of looks to me like that had a lot of ideas and want to test them all out. That's fine - that's what alpha is for. But I'm starting to get the impression that we're just going to be left with this big mess of ideas. Essentially what they're trying to do is fit a pirate class in to the rogue class.

If they're that hung up on the pirate idea, it should be a seperate class, because they're trying to do to much at the moment. They should have something like Pirate class : Swashbuckler (sword spec), Musketeer (pistol/range spec), Admiral (I don't know wtf tank spec).

Because it honestly looks like they're trying to cram all these ideas in to a class that has great potential but lacks any general direction. The talent changes were the worst thing to ever happen to wow, they've ruined class diversity and encouraged homogeneralisation.

What they're essentially trying to do here is allow you to customise your class, but the limitations of the talent design do not allow this.

I really can't see the point in talents any more. You just get a "pick a way to improve stealth" not "do I want stealth?". It's forced upon you. I know stealth is probably a bad example here, but that's essentially what's happened: You're not being asked "do you want to eat your vegetables?" You're being asked "which vegetables do you want to eat?" and it's forced upon you whether you want it or not.

[Mafic]

WoW definitely is not a sand box MMORPG or superhero MMORPG where you can have a great variety in what powers/skills/abilities you pick. I am okay with not picking a wide variety of skills or talents to choose from if they have a specific medieval fantasy in mind for each class and spec. This is because in other MMOs the roles are less defined and hybrids are encouraged more. In WoW Rogues are a pure DPS spec, and any of the talents that are used to be useful for example tanking as a Rogue were removed long ago as well as the ability for hybrid specs.

The way the PVE talents are arranged for Outlaw it looks like it was done to pick certain choices so there are maybe 2-3 builds based on a theme. For example Acrobatic Strikes, Ghostly Strike and DFA all focus on special attacks. The problem is a lot of these talents are weak and need major buffs in short.

The PVP talents for Outlaw? They look amazing in that it fits the theme of a buffer/debuffer Bard/Sword Singer that is common in other MMO's.

Take your Cut - Buffs haste of your allies within 8 yards when you use SnD or RtB.
Plunder Armor - Debuffs damage and health of enemy and you gain the same amount for 10s.
Dismantle - It is back, and replaces Blind when selected
Drink up me hearties - You can make crimson vial to give to your teammates
Tricks of the Trade - Buffing your teammates damage when you use a finisher by 15% for 8s

And then there is Boarding Party, Control is King, and Cheap Tricks.

All of these PVP talents for Outlaw fit the theme of a bandit, bard, swashbuckler or swordsmen. Outlaw in PVP is not only a Pure DPS but also a buffer/debuffer which makes it far more interesting.

But for PVE they have rigid ideas about Outlaw (cleave), Sub (single target) Assassination (multi dotting) that is carrying over from WoD into Legion. The starting point is that the PVE talents need to be improved and offer more variety. I think Tricks of the Trade should be base line so even PVE Outlaw Rogues can use it and even bring it back as a threat dump mechanic. Just my two cents.

[Chemii]

This spec would be so win if it just used a single 1H sword and no off-hand.

Or 3 swords, one in the mouth...

[shade3891]

This spec would be so win if it just used a single 1H sword and no off-hand.

Or 3 swords, one in the mouth...

i was hoping for a sword + gun! And for AoE damage you stab your sword in the ground and pull out another pistol and do a 360 degree bullet spree and grap your sword.

[Mafic]

i was hoping for a sword + gun and for aoe damage you stab your sword in the ground and pull out another pistol and do a 360 bullet rain and grap tour sword.

As awesome as that would be haha I don't think they want to do that. Pirates and gunfu sounds like an interesting combo though.

[Kyranna]

I always played healers or tanks as mains, due to guild needs. I've never raided mythics and I never will, but I enjoy casual raiding with friends. With this being said, I always had a soft spot for my rogue, a character I play since vanilla (it was actually the first character I created). I have 12 level 100 characters (rogue is the only double at one per faction), the rogue is the only one I ever used in PvP (I did 30 arenas as hunter in WotLK too, to be honest), but I don't care about pvp, if it were removed from the game, I wouldn't even notice it for months. This tells you briefly the kind of player I am. Casual, but good (in PvE at least).

To make a 11 years long story short: I love my rogue, I used to play combat which is becoming outlaw, but in reality it's a damn pirate and pirates were never really cool people in my eyes, just dirty scumbags. I regularly play subtlety and assassination as well of course, but combat with swords is my favourite.
Now I'm trying to figure out all the future changes and I'm seriously disappointed: burst of speed gone (I care only about PvE mind you!), Shuriken Toss autoattacks from ranged gone, Bandit's Guile gone, Combat Readiness gone and hell knows what I missed.

The rng finisher must be an internal joke we don't comprehend fully, which couples with the fact an assassin master of shadows becomes a drunken sailor with delusion of commandeering ships and marooning opposing monsters or crap like that. I'm sorry, I don't think pirates are interesting at all, I prefer trained killers and martial artists, poisoning assassins and eventually thieves.

It will serve for nothing, but I wanted to express my feelings on the subject. If I pair this with my opinions on artifact weapons, which are nothing but the measure of a grinding which becomes mandatory before even attempting at playing a spec, since it's like the talents of old: all passive crap that gives +x% to something or procs with no control over what happens, but boost damage and parsing so much that they can't be ignored, if I pair this, I was saying, then Legion becomes less and less interesting.

It seems to me that removing complexity for Blizzard is becoming equal to removing fun skills, active skill where I can decide to push a button and see something special happening or skills that allow variations on the standard dull gameplay or even worse, cooldowns we can use to achieve kills that would normally be too difficult in standard circumstances (doesn't usually apply to hunters).

[elfporn]

snip

Much of the piratey stuff has been hashed out in earlier pages, the general conclusion we came to was that nearly all of the things that makes outlaw "piratey" are optional. Changed out via talents. It makes it possible for those who find the new "class flavor" distasteful, to go a different direction with the overall theme.

Roll the Bones is very controversial because of the rng. The thing to keep in mind however, is that rng is a big part of WoW - if they took it out and just make it an ability that procced a random buff for X seconds each time you used a finisher, there would probably be less grumbling, but it would still be random. SnD is still an option via talents.

The artifacts are meant to be modular gear progression - the talents of old were merely obtained by the leveling process, they weren't all passive, and weren't meaningless. The artifact traits are similar, sure, but you can change runes to emphasize certain traits, leading to playstyles that stress certain abilities over others. I can't say that for pve some stuff will grant more dps than others though. As similar as they are to the old talent trees, everything on the artifact is obtainable, and they certainly aren't bad. Also, artifact power is obtained by just about anything you do in the game.

[Mafic]

Honestly the only reason why I think they made Roll the Bones baseline is people complained about Outlaw being boring in general on the alpha forums and they said Roll the Bones was fun.

The problem is as follows:

1. The version of Roll the Bones that people found fun was way more powerful as a talent than base line. The current version isn't as fun as the older version it seems.
2. It is the only ability base line that gives off the Pirate theme which is why it originally was a talent like the other pirate themed talents.

Players that don't care about the pirate theme are forced to take SnD now as a talent....so I can see that point of view.

Blizz needs to decide what Outlaw will be moving forward and making Roll the Bones base line isn't going to solve the problem of players providing feedback that the spec is boring to play. They need to put more elbow grease into the spec and fully flesh it out instead.

[Deleted]

Spec seems cool but it feels a bit awkward. Will probably get better with WAs telling me when the ghostly strike thing is about to come off and when to roll the bones.

Also things like the opener feel awkward. Something like Extra Energy doesn't feel like it ties in amazingly with free 5 combo points from saber slash. Marked for death feels useless there too. Something like killing spree doesn't feel like you'd use on the pull, maybe after you used your other things since it takes control away.

[Deleted]

I think Outlaw is actually my favorite spec now of the three. Roll the Bones is really cool. I like Grappling Hook. Swords > Daggers visually.

Having a pistol is fucking amazing.

I agree Pistol for a Rogue is awesome... its just theyve copied it off GW2 Pistol-Thiefs. Theyre loads of fun to play too!

[Deleted]

Well here is the problem.

Most of the changes Blizz has made revolves around Roll the Bones and Curse of Dreadblades cool down so that is all people can comment on and provide feedback. And the other problem is the Outlaw talents have remained mostly unchanged since starting last year.

The bigger problem is that there isn't enough players that play Rogues as mains to provide feedback on the forums. Blizz assumes the silence implies that the spec is fine which is completely wrong. The Rogue class isn't as vocal as the Ret Paladins which is simply one spec and with a huge amount of players in comparison.

That's not how game development goes. You don't change design based on vocal minority feedback.

[Mafic]

That's not how game development goes. You don't change design based on vocal minority feedback.

Based on my years of experience as an alpha/beta tester the only way things change is to provide feedback. Being vocal is how things change for the better (eg Legion Sub early in alpha) and which is why the squeaky wheel is the one that receives grease.

[maddnesskhaz]

That's not how game development goes. You don't change design based on vocal minority feedback.

So instead you base it upon an assumed lack of feedback meaning everyone loves all the changes, and ignore the feedback that is given?

Makes perfect sense.

[Deleted]

Cannon Barrage deals less dmg now, was that really necessary? I don't know how great the dmg was, I got no Alpha access .

[dcc626]

hmmmm, does the remove the "replaces roll the bones" from SnD mean what i think it means?