Legion - Outlaw Discussion

[Mafic]

Because current outlaw spec feels clunky as hell, all or nothing, while the old combat spec was inifinetly more fluid.

This is due to many things:

-The assumption that Outlaw rogues are under perma AR. They're not, and even if they were, they'd still need specific buffs on top of it to be really competitive.

Out of AR window your energy/CP generation is pretty piss poor, coupled with the high energy cost of saber slash.

-The high energy cost of our CP builder. Assuming you're not under AR and specific buffs, you're just a sitting duck.

-RTB itself. It makes no sense to roll a 1 or 2 buff when you invest 6 CP, this is terrible efficiency-wise.

May i ask why ? 6 rolls buffed rogues barely hold their own vs fury wars in cleave scenarii.

Remember they removed poisons. They also removed bleeds from the spec. all we have now is meh eviscerates.

Changing a spec which was revolving for years around passive/white damage into a 100% skill shot spec implies you should considerably buff what's left.

At this point most people want the spec to be fun. It currently isn't fun but at least with Loaded Dice you can work around it...but on the PTR? Not fun at all as you are more entertained watching paint dry.

[Deleted]

There are people all over the logs on every fight doing very comparable dps with both boots & bracers. There's too many other variables, particularly with Outlaw, to say that dps "went up a lot" when you switched between 2 legendaries that average about a 0.2% dps difference. The math just isn't there, and in anecdotally I don't see it in the gameplay either. I've had all Outlaw legendaries for quite some time. My parses with boots & with bracers are very close to the margin SimC sets as the difference between them. I've overtaken my record parses with bracers and then again with boots. They're two of the closest legendaries in the game, so long as you're adjusting talents.

*It's not just fights like Elisande, though I do agree that fight's also a good example of where you can maximize the boots. But even on Star Augur the top 100 have plenty of boot parses despite that going against prevailing wisdom.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not overly critical of boots because I played with them for months and they served me well. They are a very underrated legendary. My highest parse on mythic Chronomatic is still with boots, which was rank 1 at the time for a few until some other rogues loaded their logs on the same day and it dropped to #3. You can absolutely get good ranks with boots. I'm just not seeing the tippy top performace outside those 3 bosses I mentioned. For Trilliax and Krosus specifically the boots were always a complete bust and really made me consider going assassination at the time. For me the boots sim 30k less than bracers and I can directly see that in practice as well. This is also with only ilvl 900 replacement boots vs 925 bracers. Also I much prefer the talent loadout I can take with bracers and not using sprint for dps.

[shrunken]

You can absolutely get good ranks with boots.

This is the only thing I'm asserting. This is all stemming from my response to a guy in this thread who is on Mythic Elisande and who said that *he* is struggling with the bracer rotation and he gets more damage when he plays with Shoulders+Ring (which is a very standard rotation). He asked if I thought that maybe he should swap to Boots. I told him yes, because the boots are very straightforward to play with and they parse very similarly to bracers. I think that's the right advice, and clearly I'm not alone in that because he was already leaning somewhat that direction & that was what prompted him to ask in the first place.

Likewise, the last time I had any discussion about Outlaw legendaries it was two idiots trying to pillory me for responding to a guy who asked if Boots+Shoulders would be good enough for him to start trying OFFSPEC Outlaw, which obviously they are. After armorying & parse-checking the two, I found that one of them doesn't have a single strong parse as Outlaw, and the other has *zero* parses as Outlaw. These people contribute on topics they aren't even competent to discuss, and it's not serving the rogue community well at all. I would also argue that some of the heavily misguided feedback that Outlaw rogues offered to Blizzard early in this expansion & Blizzard's subsequent interpretation of that feedback, led to months of unnecessary struggles through alterations that the spec is only just finally getting around.

Also I much prefer the talent loadout I can take with bracers and not using sprint for dps.

I strongly agree with this. I acknowledged in another thread that the biggest drawback of the Boots is that they advocate spec'ing out of Acrobatic Strikes to take Hit & Run, which is a huge sacrifice to make on some fights.

[Deleted]

This is the only thing I'm asserting. My this is all stemming from my response to a guy in this thread who is on Mythic Elisande and who said that *he* is struggling with the bracer rotation and he gets more damage when he plays with Shoulders+Ring (which is a very standard rotation). He asked if I thought that maybe he should swap to Boots. I told him yes, because the boots are very straightforward to play with and they parse very similarly to bracers. I think that's the right advice, and clearly I'm not alone in that because he was already leaning somewhat that direction & that was what prompted him to ask in the first place.

He could indeed try the boots, I guess the disagreement here between us was only that I'd rather recommend learning to play with the bracers, because using the boots and bracers both have a similar learning curve (learning to press a button you haven't really used for dps before) with bracers being only slightly harder to play with (imo)

Likewise, the last time I had any discussion about Outlaw legendaries it was two idiots trying to pillory me for responding to a guy who asked if Boots+Shoulders would be good enough for him to start trying OFFSPEC Outlaw, which obviously they are. After armorying & parse-checking the two, I found that one of them doesn't have a single strong parse as Outlaw, and the other has *zero* parses as Outlaw. These people contribute on topics they aren't even competent to discuss, and it's not serving the rogue community well at all. I would also argue that some of the heavily misguided feedback that Outlaw rogues offered to Blizzard early in this expansion & Blizzard's subsequent interpretation of that feedback, led to months of unnecessary struggles through alterations that the spec is only just finally getting around.

I saw that discussion and it made me chuckle a little because it was so obvious even without checking that these guys had no idea what they were talking about, like just about everyone who have never played with the boots. This misinformation about the spec and how it plays is indeed a huge detriment and blizzard is well on its way to destroying the most fun spec in the game in the next patch. Every time i see people who don't even play the spec clamor for s&d back and rag on Jolly Roger as a buff in the PTR feedback thread and elsewhere it makes me cringe.

[shrunken]

He could indeed try the boots, I guess the disagreement here between us was only that I'd rather recommend learning to play with the bracers, because using the boots and bracers both have a similar learning curve (learning to press a button you haven't really used for dps before) with bracers being only slightly harder to play with (imo)

I saw that discussion and it made me chuckle a little because it was so obvious even without checking that these guys had no idea what they were talking about, like just about everyone who have never played with the boots. This misinformation about the spec and how it plays is indeed a huge detriment and blizzard is well on its way to destroying the most fun spec in the game in the next patch. Every time i see people who don't even play the spec clamor for s&d back and rag on Jolly Roger as a buff in the PTR feedback thread and elsewhere it makes me cringe.

MFD lining up with Sprint makes it almost impossible to fuck up that rotation, so at the absolute least there's that. Beyond that point though, I 100% agree. I think that people should be proficient with all of the relevant gear sets because we're in the midst of an expansion where Blizzard has already proven that they are not opposed to extremely volatile changes. I still feel like every viable spec & item is on the chopping block at any moment (I think dismantling the cookie cutter Affliction spec in 7.2.5 is an indication that this hasn't changed, as the mechanics of that spec were ostensibly one of Legion's success stories up to this point).

[Zzat]

Another poster noted that boots sim 50k dps lower than bracers for him. And that's with having FAR better replacement bracers than boots (925 vs 900). So in reality if both of his replacement pieces were equal we'd see roughly 60k+ sim dps difference between braces and boots. 60k dps is a LOT. That amount of DPS loss is like missing 4-5 traits in your weapon, so if you ask me if it's worth playing Offspec outlaw with that large a deficit, I firmly think NO. You will just get discouraged by the results. If boots were competitive, we'd see a lot more Outlaws using them. We'd also see a lower discrepancy in sims. Neither of these are the case. Boots simply don't hold a candle to Shoulders+Bracers.

I've had the opinion for a long time that they need a buff though, especially since we're giving up Acrobatic Strikes and wasting a mobility skill (which I also use sometimes for the free feint, so survivability too) to maximize them. I used to use boots in EN and had my WW monk cast Tiger's Lust on me on cooldown, called out for Wind Rush totem during my AR+Curse, and asked for Stampeding Roar when it was available. All this to do competitive DPS in my raid group. So glad I don't have to do that anymore. Oh and I also had to convince my WW to wear his legendary ring that increases his movement speed aura. Boots are just damn annoying to have and use due to these requirements. Oh and lastly, I had every leather piece with speed on it defaulted to me if it wasn't a significant ilvl downgrade. Another dumb requirement for doing good DPS with the boots. They definitely need a buff.

[greetingsfam]

Thoughts on the new lego cloak on the recent ptr build? Is it niche or do you guys think that it would replace bracers or mantle?

[Xanatu]

Another poster noted that boots sim 50k dps lower than bracers for him. And that's with having FAR better replacement bracers than boots (925 vs 900). So in reality if both of his replacement pieces were equal we'd see roughly 60k+ sim dps difference between braces and boots. 60k dps is a LOT. That amount of DPS loss is like missing 4-5 traits in your weapon, so if you ask me if it's worth playing Offspec outlaw with that large a deficit, I firmly think NO. You will just get discouraged by the results. If boots were competitive, we'd see a lot more Outlaws using them. We'd also see a lower discrepancy in sims. Neither of these are the case. Boots simply don't hold a candle to Shoulders+Bracers.

I've had the opinion for a long time that they need a buff though, especially since we're giving up Acrobatic Strikes and wasting a mobility skill (which I also use sometimes for the free feint, so survivability too) to maximize them. I used to use boots in EN and had my WW monk cast Tiger's Lust on me on cooldown, called out for Wind Rush totem during my AR+Curse, and asked for Stampeding Roar when it was available. All this to do competitive DPS in my raid group. So glad I don't have to do that anymore. Oh and I also had to convince my WW to wear his legendary ring that increases his movement speed aura. Boots are just damn annoying to have and use due to these requirements. Oh and lastly, I had every leather piece with speed on it defaulted to me if it wasn't a significant ilvl downgrade. Another dumb requirement for doing good DPS with the boots. They definitely need a buff.

Do you really WANT boots to be buffed into viability though? Does anyone actually enjoy the silly playstyle they cause?

Also new outlaw legendary. Seems strong? http://ptr.wowdb.com/items/151817-th...f-restlessness

[shrunken]

Another poster noted that boots sim 50k dps lower than bracers for him. And that's with having FAR better replacement bracers than boots (925 vs 900). So in reality if both of his replacement pieces were equal we'd see roughly 60k+ sim dps difference between braces and boots. 60k dps is a LOT.

I can't speak for his gear or his sim settings, but I can say that creating two equivalent placeholder items on SimCraft & then simming Boots vs. Bracers on my character doesn't net more than a 15k dps difference at any fight length on 3 different versions of SimC. I got bored and spent a lot of time testing this before. The only way I could think to expand the gap between the two would be to not spec Hit & Run in the Sim. Since that's never something that I would do in practice, that's also not something I would Sim for.

As for the topic of the new Cloak, could be good but has to survive the wrath of Blizz balancing and make it live before it can be judged. Ugly scenario is that the Cloak becomes the new hotness and Blizz subsequently guts the damage bonus on CotDB to compensate.

*Just picked up the latest overnight SimC & simmed again. I have an 11k dps difference between the two with appropriate talents. The gap widens to 58k if I sim for Boots but don't have Hit & Run talented. Can't say that has any practical impact on my gearing; any situation where I needed hook or acrobatic explicitly would already preclude using Boots.

[Deleted]

Do you really WANT boots to be buffed into viability though? Does anyone actually enjoy the silly playstyle they cause?

Also new outlaw legendary. Seems strong? http://ptr.wowdb.com/items/151817-th...f-restlessness

Personally, I don't - I actually sim higher with boots than with bracers, and I really just want acrobatic strikes back -.- Having to use my mobility for damage doesn't feel great, even if seeing 2.2m RTs during burst is awesome. Honestly if the boots just gave some sort of flat increase to RT damage (or finisher damage in general), they'd be much smoother. That is what they're doing anyway, just gimmicky. I also tried having ppl MS boost me during raids, and it doesn't seem to stack. If you already have sprint up, that seems to be the cap on "external" ms increases, except speed gear... Sad =/

The new leggie looks interesting. Hard to say without playing with it alongside all the new changes on PTR.

[Zzat]

Do you really WANT boots to be buffed into viability though? Does anyone actually enjoy the silly playstyle they cause?

Also new outlaw legendary. Seems strong?

Good point. It was nice to have an unbuffed move speed of 160-something in raids and funny to have the sprint animation be the default animation for running, but the boots were just too annoying, not to mention inconvenient due to needing raid cooldowns to maximize. Some kind of rework would be much better than a buff.

The cloak seems amazing. From mental math it should reduce the cooldown of Curse to under a minute, maybe even near 45 seconds with good rolls. The increased frequency of Curse would then feed Restless Blades even further, leading to faster refreshes of AR, Vanish, etc. With these ideas in mind I think the cloak could definitely deserve one of our legendary slots.

Shunken:

Just simmed myself and also seeing similar results, I imagine the gap would be closer if I had Run Through relics. But until the boots are actually better (ie. sim higher for me), I wouldn't go back to using them because of the aforementioned frustrations.

[Mascotte]

Do you really WANT boots to be buffed into viability though? Does anyone actually enjoy the silly playstyle they cause?

Also new outlaw legendary. Seems strong? http://ptr.wowdb.com/items/151817-th...f-restlessness

I could see it become a contender for greenskins/insignia if TB gets gutted, mantle will likely remain toptier.
Think its rather weird they want to fix the impact TB has on the playstyle but introduce another cooldown reduction form as a legendary.

[Kalador]

Also new outlaw legendary. Seems strong? http://ptr.wowdb.com/items/151817-th...f-restlessness

look strong to me, seems to be playing into the More Cp > more finisher > more reduction on CD > more CP loop. Imo it will end up being very strong

[Mafic]

look strong to me, seems to be playing into the More Cp > more finisher > more reduction on CD > more CP loop. Imo it will end up being very strong

Haha Why would Blizz intend on releasing a legendary like that? All it is going to do is make people angry lol.

[shrunken]

Haha Why would Blizz intend on releasing a legendary like that? All it is going to do is make people angry lol.

Angry about which part?

[Deleted]

seems like very (too) powerful, so people will get angry to not get it?

[Mafic]

seems like very (too) powerful, so people will get angry to not get it?

That is a factor, but they did an Outlaw rework, because they did NOT want this type of feedback loop supposedly and for people to fish for True Bearing. So, they nerfed True Bearing for 7.2.5, returned Restless Blades, but now bring in this legendary?

Blizz likes kicking the hornets nest lol.

[shrunken]

seems like very (too) powerful, so people will get angry to not get it?

Most raiding Outlaw rogues already have all or very nearly all of their possible legendary items. That number's only going to increase by the time Tomb is released. It shouldn't be hard to acquire the cloak (if it turns out to be a bis item) for the people that really need it.

[Deleted]

It's not really for me, I am missing only 2 legs so I should have hight chance to get the new one when the patch goes live. But people wanting to play the spec will feel gutted.

[Sharkcrap]

That is a factor, but they did an Outlaw rework, because they did NOT want this type of feedback loop supposedly and for people to fish for True Bearing. So, they nerfed True Bearing for 7.2.5, returned Restless Blades, but now bring in this legendary?

Blizz likes kicking the hornets nest lol.

Re-read it, it says restless blades not true bearing. So its always going to be a fixed 0.25s per cp, it wont work with true bearing.