What exactly did he mean with the "not just go-go-go, focus on combat"?

[Deleted]

Have any of you ever done greater rifts in D3? Its exactly the same system. You get a keystone, do the dungeon and if you make the time you upgrade the keystone to do a higher level scaled up version of the dungeon. This can go on and on until you can t make the time with the gear you have and will need to farm more gear to go higher.

So it's basically the same but you're just gated to do Silver if you didn't do Copper before?

If it's that then the only real change is the dungeon-wide debufs it ads on each one.

[Paulosio]

Did anyone get that? It was so vague. I mean, isn't "go-go-go" also a form of combat?

Well he gave specific examples in some of the random dungeon buffs such as the 1 that causes creatures to deal double damage at 30% health. Instead of just aoeing and trying to "go go go" as fast as possible you'd actually want to burn targets down 1 BY 1 so you wouldn't have them all doing double damage at the same time and insta gibbing the tank. Perhaps using CC to help too.

He's simply saying that the combat wont all be about rounding up as many mobs as you can handle and aoe dpsing / stunning them down which is basically what 5 man content is right now (even heroics and challenge modes). Maybe that form of combat is acceptable in level up dungeons and normals but not for the end game dungeon content.

[Deleted]

Well he gave specific examples in some of the random dungeon buffs such as the 1 that causes creatures to deal double damage at 30% health. Instead of just aoeing and trying to "go go go" as fast as possible you'd actually want to burn targets down 1 BY 1 so you wouldn't have them all doing double damage at the same time and insta gibbing the tank. Perhaps using CC to help too.

He's simply saying that the combat wont all be about rounding up as many mobs as you can handle and aoe dpsing / stunning them down which is basically what 5 man content is right now (even heroics and challenge modes). Maybe that form of combat is acceptable in level up dungeons and normals but not for the end game dungeon content.

The problem is that we already have that on each different pack or boss. There are mechanics. Those NPCs do different stuff each time.

It appears the main thing it adds is a clearer way to "lead" the group, since some major abilities would be dungeon-wide and obvious.

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It's also harder each time since it adds a new debuf. So the timer might remain the same.

[Gsara]

So it's basically the same but you're just gated to do Silver if you didn't do Copper before?

If it's that then the only real change is the dungeon-wide debufs it ads on each one.

Yes plus hp and damage on mobs will scale up as well as added affixes. Like a level 1 may have 1 extra ability and a level 40 will have 4 or 5 extra's.

[Deleted]

I'm thinking now they may want to avoid development time on NPCs abilities. For example, why make a complex pack of mobs that one heals, the other interrupts, the other fears? They would just have those dungeon-wide debufs with the stone.

So that would make the normal/heroic mode to be complete faceroll and uninteresting.

But dunno, they might keep it exactly like it is in that regard.

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You know what? Ion might just be envisioning of turning 5mans into mini-raids in terms of mechanics, "LFR", then on normal add an ability, then on Mythic add another ability etc. However, since that might take too much development time, they might have thought of those dungeon-wide debufs.

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It might also make it too confusing to players if it becomes too complex since they're after all "just 5mans".

[shaunika123]

I don't get what you mean. Trash have mechanics. Bosses have mechanics.

because timers as a measure of difficulty are not the best design
the challenging fights should be the mechanics of the fight

and the dungeon wide affixes are going to be in addition to the innate mob abilities
do you honestly think they'll just AA stuff?

[Deleted]

because timers as a measure of difficulty are not the best design
the challenging fights should be the mechanics of the fight

If it is anything like diablo, timers only decide if you upgrade your stone or not.

[SunspotAnims]

What is meant is that current challenge modes are time trials, and therefore are only made for and only appeal to more organized, skilled groups seeking prestige awards for speeding through high-difficulty dungeons. Legion challenge modes will be less focused on being a hardcore time trial (hence no more gold, silver, bronze timers,) and more focused on being more of an adaptive dungeon difficulty for all players. There will be only one timer and it will be somewhat more lenient. Instead of getting a ranking for finishing a challenge mode within a certain time period, you either beat the timer or you don't. If you don't, you keep whatever awards you get from that dungeon but lose the challenge stone (used to start challenge modes, you'll have to get a new one,) if you do beat the timer, your stone will be upgraded, meaning you can do the dungeon again with a higher difficulty and better rewards, and the stone will keep upgrading the dungeon difficulty/rewards as long as you can keep beating the timer.

Essentially, it kind of blends current Mythic and Challenge mode dungeons. On one hand, you can just get a high difficulty stone and use it on a dungeon for difficulty-appropriate gear without minding the timer, or you can try to beat the timer as many times as possible to get more rewards and etc., but it's still more difficulty focused than time focused. The dungeon gets harder, not the timer.

[Ham on Rye]

Did anyone get that? It was so vague. I mean, isn't "go-go-go" also a form of combat?

Because the only thing that matters is getting through fast. That means you find shortcuts to skip half the dungeons, and in the other half you just drag all the trash packs with you, AoEing them down as you go, ignoring pretty much every mechanic in a mad rush to finish.

That's not what a difficult dungeon should be. In BC, when it was the glory days of difficult heroic dungeons before they were gearnerfed, you had to CC, you had to take your time, you had to drag packs backwards, not forwards, to prevent getting feared into nearby trash packs, you had to watch for patrols... it was awesome.

The only reason to put a timer on it now if there's going to be rewards is so you can't just wait for every defensive cooldown to come back between each trash pack. That's why it's only a silver timer. So you can't sit there, but you can't rush either.

[Deleted]

As long there is timer (even if its lenient) it will be "go-go-go". I would rather have 1 wipe = you are out or some sort of attempt counter than timer (keep boss enrage timers etc). With timer it will be like challenge modes where players try glitch/skip as much trash as possible.

[Wilderness]

Did they nerf it/buffed the players? I haven't done CM since the first tier, when gear from it was needed.

Not directly, no. But class changes throughout WoD have impacted that, people now have a lot more gear they can get to min/max their stats or find that one trinket that works really well even scaled down, and with months of people pushing for world/region times there are far better and known strats as well.

None of that is like how things changed in MoP since people had like 20+ gems at the end, but its still easier now than it was initially for all of those reasons.

I don't get what you mean. Trash have mechanics. Bosses have mechanics.

But not meaningful mechanics in most cases. Usually the challenge for groups going for gold isn't "how do we kill this pack" its "how do we kill all 4 of those packs together and where do we need to invis to meet the timer". The time it takes you do to each part of the dungeon is paramount, not what you're killing. They are looking to change that although I'm skeptical that they can do so in a meaningful enough way to keep allowing for harder dungeons like they are claming that isn't just adding a lot more trash and overloading abilities onto packs. If their solution to making dungeons continuously harder is now you have way more trash and have to consider several abilities each pull its going to get old.

[Deleted]

because timers as a measure of difficulty are not the best design
the challenging fights should be the mechanics of the fight

I agree. I don't like timers. I'd hate if mythic raiding would wipe on a predetermined Enrage that included all trash and all bosses together, ewwww..

[Wilderness]

As long there is timer (even if its lenient) it will be "go-go-go". I would rather have 1 wipe = you are out or some sort of attempt counter than timer (keep boss enrage timers etc). With timer it will be like challenge modes where players try glitch/skip as much trash as possible.

It depends what they are doing with those stones they mentioned that you have to get in order to do the CMs at different difficulty levels. If they break after 1 wipe, or even a number of wipes, then people will focus more on what's going on rather than get too aggressive and waste a stone.

But having them break after 1 wipe, or even a handful of wipes, is going to make the whole system rather unfriendly to pugs I think, so I don't know that would be a great way to go.

[Deleted]

they said the timers will be slightly below the current silver. Which means that you will have no problem completing them in time if you don't majorly wipe and go through the dungeon in a determined fashion.

I can imagine that at the beginning of the expansion and at the highest keystone levels you will want to maximize your tempo since you will be generally undergeared to actually kill the enemies in time if you do not hurry.

You have to realize that without timers, you can completely cheese such dungeons by going 2 tanks + 2 heals + 1 dps or something unless you give every enemy an enrage. Timers are therefore necessary to ensure the intended group compositions.

I do however expect 2 tank + 2 dps + 1 heal comps to stir up a lot at the beginning if enemy dmg scales faster than enemy hp, which should be the intended scaling to not make the enemies just feel like dmg-sponges.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Its a marriage of the two concepts, but I understand why you would be confused. The difference they are going for here is that you CAN'T just "go go go" which originally seemed impossible.
They have managed to make it work with these crazy mechanic additions.
Now you will have to play smart, but of course there will be people who manage to do it extremely quickly.

In general, you shouldn't be able to pull 25 mobs and army with all cds and kill them before anything happens.

The biggest focus should be that CMs now drop gear though. That's what is important, not how you complete them at this point.

[ro9ue]

The Magister's Terrace experience, imo, was probably the best dungeon experience in the history of World of Warcraft. Challenge Modes are gimmick speed runs where you pull mobs, and AOE them down. You don't get to experience the dungeon itself and feel like your adventuring, it actually feels like a Diablo rift or something.

MGT was more about chilling with your group and taking each pack 1 by 1 with CC and using the breadth of your abilities to get through the whole place. That's really the core MMO dungeon experience I crave and WoW just hasn't fulfilled that in years.

[Deleted]

Now I wonder if gear is scaled down.

[Grinia]

Now I wonder if gear is scaled down.

No. He did mention that the instance will be scaling.

[Deleted]

No. He did mention that the instance will be scaling.

Oh ye. Same thing though for the difficulty.

[Raugnaut]

Currently, its "Gather up mobs in as huge packs as possible, CC/AOE them down fast".

Next expansion, however, the timer, while still there, is significantly more lax, but mobs damage/health/mechanics increase as you go up. AKA - Bronze would have things like 1 bad spell to interupt, Gold would have things like 3x more health, 2x more damage, 2 bad things to interupt, 1 mob enrages, 1 mob fixates on the healer, and 1 mob does pulsing AoE stuns and needs to be tanked away from the group. World bests would have things like 8x more health, 5x more damage, everything instantly kills you if its allowed to cast, everything enrages if you look at it funny, healer has to wait for 5 sunders, the mobs chain-stun you, and one smart mob goes and pulls the entire room as soon as it hits 95%, and gains a immunity to CC effects and a 250% speed boost once it hits 80%.

So instead of trying to rush through it, you will instead be forced to pull carefully and prioritize. The timer will be long (25-35 minutes), but the mobs will be hard.