Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Mafic]

I would argue that it was an anomaly for Combat to have such low single target DPS with WoD.. In the past Combat has been above average to very good or even the pinnacle of single target sustained DPS.

Multistrike was a big factor in Combat's single target DPS being tuned so low in WoD and with the removal of it I expect Outlaw single target sustain to increase. Especially with Kspree a talent choice now which means they will tune Outlaw around Curse of DreadBlades and Adrenaline Rush primarily now.

Sub tuning could end up making it a stronger sustained DPS spec in Legion, but with the charge system I suppose it depends on player skill more so. With Outlaw it is more about fishing for RNG True Bearing procs. And Assassination is a darkhorse to possibly surprise for PVE as well.

Damage tuning is definitely around the corner and it will be interesting to see if Sub stays true as the ultimate single target spec (seems unlikely but you never know).

[elfporn]

I've got to back smaxy on this combat or sub tangent here. outlying factors notwithstanding, sub has been ahead of combat in ST since cata (roughly). Combat obviously is better in any fight with multiple targets, but in a progression guild where priority targets matter and aoe is handled by others (may not always be the case) sub is the spec to play.

That's not to say combat hasn't been strong, or been played by more people for simplicity, or due to weapons. And there's a decent chance the niches will stay similar, though talented aoe options would be preferred.

[Willoughby]

I would argue that it was an anomaly for Combat to have such low single target DPS with WoD.. In the past Combat has been above average to very good or even the pinnacle of single target sustained DPS.

Multistrike was a big factor in Combat's single target DPS being tuned so low in WoD and with the removal of it I expect Outlaw single target sustain to increase. Especially with Kspree a talent choice now which means they will tune Outlaw around Curse of DreadBlades and Adrenaline Rush primarily now.

Multistrike is certainly a factor, but removing Blade Flurry's target cap crippled Combat ST more than anything else.

Overlooked but also important is the role combo points on the player instead of the target played. Seamlessly swapping to whichever target you want as often as you'd like while sniping other nearly dead mobs with MfD and not wasting a single combo point just wasn't possible until WoD.

In the previous few expansions, Combat ST was OK (and even great in SoO thanks to AOC+4set), but how carefully its been tuned in WoD just says they're aware of how out of hand passive uncapped cleave with no real target swapping limitations can get. With Mythic+ 5-mans being a bigger part of endgame, I think they'll continue tuning Combat ST more conservatively if the decision is kept to keep Blade Flurry uncapped. But maybe they'll cave because of limitations imposed by Artifacts.

[Deleted]

sub has been ahead of combat in ST since cata (roughly). Combat obviously is better in any fight with multiple targets, but in a progression guild where priority targets matter and aoe is handled by others (may not always be the case) sub is the spec to play.

Yeah, listen to this dude.

[Geckoo]

The fact that subtley was capable of dealing equal or slightly better numbers than combat was always diminished by the spec toolkit and encounter design. Combat had both the numbers and the flexibility to be a viable spec in almost any scenario, while subtley was already a niche spec that most of the times was only viable if the rogue didn't have to deal with some of the raid mechanics that rogues usually dealt with.

Those issues still exist today, but combat is no longer capable of being competitive on single target and they made subtley really strong, so we stick with it with all the consequences.

Anyway, i don't know why we are talking about the past instead of the future.

[Valentyn]

The fact that subtley was capable of dealing equal or slightly better numbers than combat was always diminished by the spec toolkit and encounter design. Combat had both the numbers and the flexibility to be a viable spec in almost any scenario, while subtley was already a niche spec that most of the times was only viable if the rogue didn't have to deal with some of the raid mechanics that rogues usually dealt with.

Those issues still exist today, but combat is no longer capable of being competitive on single target and they made subtley really strong, so we stick with it with all the consequences.

Anyway, i don't know why we are talking about the past instead of the future.

Honestly I just hope Sub ST can compete a bit with Outlaw AoE so that we're not forced early on to abandon the spec to be able to progress through dungeons, raids and challenge modes.
The whole Artifact system is what makes this worse as getting a second one is time gated, and upgrading it as well.

I'm really worried going to Legion picking sub is going be a severe handicap for everything until I'm somewhat geared and upgraded, while Outlaw just plods along fine.

Having watched some streams where a Sub rogue needs to vanish and run away with more than 2-3 adds on them is really worrying, but then again these streamers aren't playing rogues as their mains on live either. Although with Outlaw they just mangle everything in sight, until they pull far too much.

[Mac223]

I'm getting flashbacks to Vanilla now, imagining one of the Rogue specs will be like my original choice (Feral Druid) and be kinda useless at several parts of the game.

I really don't mind the artifact system in principle. It is an interessting choice to make. But it's all in the hands of blizzard to make it so your choice doesn't suck complete and utter dickballs at important activity Z.

[elfporn]

Yeah, listen to this dude.

Right, because no one has supported your argument. Combat has been competitive, and convenient at times, but hasn't been ahead of sub for the ST role for a very long time.

Not that it matters at all. This isn't a thread about combat's past effectiveness as compared to sub's

[Deleted]

Right, because no one has supported your argument. Combat has been competitive, and convenient at times, but hasn't been ahead of sub for the ST role for a very long time.

Not that it matters at all. This isn't a thread about combat's past effectiveness as compared to sub's

I dont need anyone to support me when Im right and you are wrong.

[elfporn]

I dont need anyone to support me when Im right and you are wrong.

Great supporting argument there buddy.

[kalaratic]

I'm getting flashbacks to Vanilla now, imagining one of the Rogue specs will be like my original choice (Feral Druid) and be kinda useless at several parts of the game.

u never know, if they fuck up tuning (which i don't put it past them to do after all this shit), sub will be completely useless and we might just be forced to play outlaw until 7.1

[Deleted]

I think it is quite obvious that with an ability like Blade Flurry, in its current iteration, that anyone that has been playing this game for a while would reach the logical conclusion that that spec should not ever be top for a single target patchwerk style fight if it is going to play to its strength fairly which is AoE/Cleave. To suggest that it will be competitive with sub or ass for ST is having even less faith in the dev's than Timmy from southpark tuning the numbers...

Combat has always been lower dps single target, the only times where it pulled ahead were situations like when you got a weapon drop of higher ilvl so it made sense to play it ST as it scaled insanely with weapon damage/speed/haste(i used the hc 1h Str axe from morchok in cata over my daggers until they upgrade it was that good for combat) or a trinket that gave you a fuck ton of haste and simmed out higher.

But that was before the current iteration or blade flurry, so thinking that combat will return to those days while having unlimited targets for cleave is pretty daft to say the least.

[Willoughby]

Having watched some streams where a Sub rogue needs to vanish and run away with more than 2-3 adds on them is really worrying, but then again these streamers aren't playing rogues as their mains on live either. Although with Outlaw they just mangle everything in sight, until they pull far too much.

Sub feels very poor in that respect. Pull 3 mobs and you feel like your FoK + Nightblade multidotting is just tickling them while they beat your shit in. Definitely need to pop defensives if you pull more than 2.

[Valentyn]

Sub feels very poor in that respect. Pull 3 mobs and you feel like your FoK + Nightblade multidotting is just tickling them while they beat your shit in. Definitely need to pop defensives if you pull more than 2.

That's my main issue with it, as that's all sub AoE is at the moment. I can't help but be worried about raiding, and the new mythic dungeons. Especially with those new buffs to adds where they power up each time an ally is killed, so AoE is going to be important. Never mind Tab-targeting is a horrible mess still.

[Cebel]

Its part of a bigger problem with WoW where they time-gate content to artificially inflate content and drag these things out like legendary item chains so you keep subbed and paying. And weekly raid/dungeon lock outs are also weird when you really think about it considering you're actively paying to play the game.

I know... but ill just never know why they want the time-gate to be your classes specs instead of the raids. Makes no sense.

[kalaratic]

I know... but ill just never know why they want the time-gate to be your classes specs instead of the raids. Makes no sense.

it's just another lazy way to retain subs since everyone wants to max out their artifact weapon. atleast it's not as obvious as that valor quest for the mop cloak where all it said was "fuck off, come back in 3 weeks or 4 if u collected even 1 point of valor"

[Cebel]

it's just another lazy way to retain subs since everyone wants to max out their artifact weapon. atleast it's not as obvious as that valor quest for the mop cloak where all it said was "fuck off, come back in 3 weeks or 4 if u collected even 1 point of valor"

Theyre gonna lose my sub early if the current system remains. Its one thing if its simply an item that enhances your entire character, but to have a system that almost guarentee's you're locked into a spec for progression is downright fucked up.

[Deleted]

For those who are curious.


Anyway, in regards to combat vs subtlety thing. I repeat and in capital letters, so bear with me: YOU CANNOT HAVE IT ALL.
Combat has blade flurry so it is expected not to excel in single target damage.
Subtlety is for single target.
Assassination is melee warlock style.dot dot dot but with some slashes here and there.
Period.

By the way, we cried for AoE and developers gave us Shadow Nova. Then we say to remove it (Because of PvP reasons obviously due to breaking stealth, and etc). So, in Blizzard's shoes, they think we are joking at them. perhaps that is why rogues changes aren't...so....many. But yes, they could make SN not break CC's. And there are,certainly, other ways of giving AoE. But should we be at the risk of reducing single target dmg? that is the question. I say no. Let subtlety excel in single target dps.

[delus]

Honestly I think the spec would play a lot better with symbols of death removed and the damage redistributed to active abilities. it is just boring having to juggle passive damage increases.

[kalaratic]

For those who are curious.
Anyway, in regards to combat vs subtlety thing. I repeat and in capital letters, so bear with me: YOU CANNOT HAVE IT ALL.
Combat has blade flurry so it is expected not to excel in single target damage.
Subtlety is for single target.
Assassination is melee warlock style.dot dot dot but with some slashes here and there.
Period.

By the way, we cried for AoE and developers gave us Shadow Nova. Then we say to remove it (Because of PvP reasons obviously due to breaking stealth, and etc). So, in Blizzard's shoes, they think we are joking at them. perhaps that is why rogues changes aren't...so....many. But yes, they could make SN not break CC's. And there are,certainly, other ways of giving AoE. But should we be at the risk of reducing single target dmg? that is the question. I say no. Let subtlety excel in single target dps.

ok first of all u posted a video of someone leveling as mut, idk why it's here. ppl aren't saying to remove our AoE, they're just saying how dumb shadow nova is as our only form of it. literally all they need to do is get rid of it and replace it with someone we can control like an AoE finisher. u have to realize how fucking useless of a spec it is to be in legion with garbage aoe.

also don't even try to defend blizzard, they know we aren't joking at them. they know they fucked up, they're so fucking deep down this class fantasy rabbit hole that they can't be bothered to fix the issues the spec has