Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Mafic]

Subterfuge being available to outlaw/ass further waters sub down as a spec as it is just a mini shadow dance in essence. It should be deleted in entirety as a talent, it can be as game breaking as shroud was in pvp.

Should be extends SD duration by 3s clearly sub only, if they keep it.

I disagree.

If Assassination is losing CC like Blind and Gouge it needs to be able to utilize some CC using stealth (eg Garroting one target and cheap shotting another). I think the stealth talent tier is the one thing they did right in MoP and should be available for all three Rogue specs.

[Smaxy]

This "required field is incomplete" bs is so lame I can't post feedback blah

[kalaratic]

This "required field is incomplete" bs is so lame I can't post feedback blah

even the website knows sub is incomplete

[Deleted]

This "required field is incomplete" bs is so lame I can't post feedback blah

Use another internet browser.

[Deleted]

Did Rogues actually have any response from the devs aside from "Sub's AoE is fine, if you don't like it you can play another spec" and "We're okay with Roll the Bones's RNG" since the start of Alpha?

[kalaratic]

Did Rogues actually have any response from the devs aside from "Sub's AoE is fine, if you don't like it you can play another spec" and "We're okay with Roll the Bones's RNG" since the start of Alpha?

no. the most recent thing they've said about sub is in the theorycrafting thread about making fortune's bite more clear to understand

[Smaxy]

Use another internet browser.

iPad though...

):

Seems as though the Beta has brought in a lot of casual players, fun times to be had in feedback threads xD

[Deleted]

I disagree.

If Assassination is losing CC like Blind and Gouge it needs to be able to utilize some CC using stealth (eg Garroting one target and cheap shotting another). I think the stealth talent tier is the one thing they did right in MoP and should be available for all three Rogue specs.

See that's what's I'm getting at, your basically asking for shadow dance, I get that it's sucks that ass has lost blind and gouge, but sub lost gouge along with garrotte that ass has kept, trust me given the choice 99.99% of decent pvp rogues would want garrotte back. Your asking for the only thing that sub has now over the other specs which is cheap shot on demand. Subterfuge is generally terrible for the class, never mind spec purely because of this. It waters down subs niche, it's like me now saying "ok if sub is losing poisons then I should at least have have deadly poison as a cool down" The issue is subterfuge has been picked as a talent by every spec it may as well have been baseline that it is now just expected to be available without consideration to how OP it is and how much now it steals from subs gameplay not only thematically but also waters down the spec away from the whole reason why it's supposed to be strong!!!

[Deleted]

New Beta blood likes current Backstab. Backstab will definitely not be changed. Now I just wish they gave us back Master of Subtlety baseline so I can pick Gloomblade.

[Smaxy]

Quick brainstorming (also interested to hear how those who have Beta are feeling about Sub as it stands, I'm planning on lvl ing to 110 with it)

Besides the base energy regen rate being low, do you feel that alot of issues regarding Shadowstrike and Dance (NOT SoD), and the capping of resources or running out of duration, could be fixed by increasing SD duration (1 or 2 sec) and increasing damage and energy cost of Shadowstrike (say both by 50%, 60 energy like Ambush)? I'm trying to figure out ways to fix alot of the duration of SD/energy/cp problems and upping energy cost and the duration a bit (as well as careful adjustment the Stealth Talent row) should help out I think. I actually did recommend this on the forums previously as well.

I also don't think we're going to get Anticipation baseline, so I'd like to leave lvl 45 row as it stands- players who want more freedom in their resource use can go with Anticipation or Vigor, while those who want to game minimizing CP waste go with Deeper Strategem. I actually love the DS playstyle, and can't wait to get WeakAuras to work with that. Seems like that'll separate good Rogues from great ones.

Maybe I'm in the minority on that but thought I'd bring it up.

[shoegazing]

I disagree.

If Assassination is losing CC like Blind and Gouge it needs to be able to utilize some CC using stealth (eg Garroting one target and cheap shotting another). I think the stealth talent tier is the one thing they did right in MoP and should be available for all three Rogue specs.

The obvious solution to this is that assassination should lose subterfuge and retain gouge + blind.

The stealth tier is really actually quite bad. It homogenizes the specs and dilutes subtlety's niche (not that I actually believe that but that's the same #BlizzardLogic by which sub and combat are losing poisons). It allows the rogue to still achieve a powerful opener despite being outplayed by the opponent with AoE. And it allows the rogue to spam multiple CCs in the opener. A better model for this is something which requires a resource cost as in: cheap shot kill target and focus mfd kidney healer, or sap dps cheapshot healer vanish cheapshot kill target.

Also keeping this BS talent is the reason why Blizzard feels compelled to prune Garrote from sub when Garrote itself isn't as powerful when it can't be spammed with Cheapshots due to Subterfuge.

[Deleted]

Quick brainstorming (also interested to hear how those who have Beta are feeling about Sub as it stands, I'm planning on lvl ing to 110 with it)

Besides the base energy regen rate being low, do you feel that alot of issues regarding Shadowstrike and Dance (NOT SoD), and the capping of resources or running out of duration, could be fixed by increasing SD duration (1 or 2 sec) and increasing damage and energy cost of Shadowstrike (say both by 50%, 60 energy like Ambush)? I'm trying to figure out ways to fix alot of the duration of SD/energy/cp problems and upping energy cost and the duration a bit (as well as careful adjustment the Stealth Talent row) should help out I think. I actually did recommend this on the forums previously as well.

I also don't think we're going to get Anticipation baseline, so I'd like to leave lvl 45 row as it stands- players who want more freedom in their resource use can go with Anticipation or Vigor, while those who want to game minimizing CP waste go with Deeper Strategem. I actually love the DS playstyle, and can't wait to get WeakAuras to work with that. Seems like that'll separate good Rogues from great ones.

Maybe I'm in the minority on that but thought I'd bring it up.

Got into beta yesterday, YAY!! Finally!!

On holiday atm but will be back tomorrow and start playing monday, gonna do the same and level sub to 110 straight away, so will let you know my impressions, ppl like me would be a good metric as i didn't have alpha so will be a "clean" opinion.

I'm already leaning towards the DS style of play, just from theory crafting, but will be looking from more of a PvP perspective but also with 5man mythics in mind.

Will be posting on EU forums so any stuff you want to "double" tap for maximum exposure i can post on there, just let me know

[Mafic]

The obvious solution to this is that assassination should lose subterfuge and retain gouge + blind.

The stealth tier is really actually quite bad. It homogenizes the specs and dilutes subtlety's niche (not that I actually believe that but that's the same #BlizzardLogic by which sub and combat are losing poisons). It allows the rogue to still achieve a powerful opener despite being outplayed by the opponent with AoE. And it allows the rogue to spam multiple CCs in the opener. A better model for this is something which requires a resource cost as in: cheap shot kill target and focus mfd kidney healer, or sap dps cheapshot healer vanish cheapshot kill target.

Also keeping this BS talent is the reason why Blizzard feels compelled to prune Garrote from sub when Garrote itself isn't as powerful when it can't be spammed with Cheapshots due to Subterfuge.

Blizz doesn't have sound logic because they have nerfed Shadow Focus the most while buffing Nightstalker the most. Their primary concern is PVE balance. I agree that it would be better for Assassination to keep Blind/Gouge over Subterfuge. However, if that doesn't happen...having Assassination lose Subterfuge would be the death blow to the spec.

The stealth talent tier is the best designed tier because it fits the theme of all three Rogue specs and the primary one being stealth. Blizz can balance subterfuge but they choose to overlook it and instead continually nerf shadow focus due PVE reasons. It was also PVE reasons why BoS was continually buffed and even then most players chose Shadow step for PVE and PVP.

Blizzard's tunnel vision mindset with PVE raiding for talent tuning has done more harm than good.

[Lorentz]

Blizz doesn't have sound logic because they have nerfed Shadow Focus the most while buffing Nightstalker the most. Their primary concern is PVE balance. I agree that it would be better for Assassination to keep Blind/Gouge over Subterfuge. However, if that doesn't happen...having Assassination lose Subterfuge would be the death blow to the spec.

The stealth talent tier is the best designed tier because it fits the theme of all three Rogue specs and the primary one being stealth. Blizz can balance subterfuge but they choose to overlook it and instead continually nerf shadow focus due PVE reasons. It was also PVE reasons why BoS was continually buffed and even then most players chose Shadow step for PVE and PVP.

Blizzard's tunnel vision mindset with PVE raiding for talent tuning has done more harm than good.

I think that is why Outlaw has completly different talents in that row. /s

[Mafic]

See that's what's I'm getting at, your basically asking for shadow dance, I get that it's sucks that ass has lost blind and gouge, but sub lost gouge along with garrotte that ass has kept, trust me given the choice 99.99% of decent pvp rogues would want garrotte back. Your asking for the only thing that sub has now over the other specs which is cheap shot on demand. Subterfuge is generally terrible for the class, never mind spec purely because of this. It waters down subs niche, it's like me now saying "ok if sub is losing poisons then I should at least have have deadly poison as a cool down" The issue is subterfuge has been picked as a talent by every spec it may as well have been baseline that it is now just expected to be available without consideration to how OP it is and how much now it steals from subs gameplay not only thematically but also waters down the spec away from the whole reason why it's supposed to be strong!!!

Most players choose Shadow Focus which is why it has been nerfed in WoD and in Legion alpha/beta. Subterfuge...they nerfed the defensive aspect of it while leaving the offensive aspect of it. What they should have done is nerfed the offensive aspect of it so it isn't a mini shadow dance IMVHO.

Blizz doesn't care about Shadow Dance niche which is why they don't understand why switching from a powerful cool down to charges ruins the entire point of Shadow Dance and Sub's identity.

- - - Updated - - -

I think that is why Outlaw has completly different talents in that row. /s

Haha.

In a cruel twist of irony Outlaw has more better stealth mechanics if you think about it When they buffed Dirty Tricks they included the energy discount with cheap shot and sap (eg no energy cost). That is basically a better version of the heavily nerfed Shadow Focus. Artifact talent that guarantees a second Saber Slash and free Pistol Shot by using Ambush.

And Outlaw's replacement of the stealth tier (eg mobility tier) is one giant mess. At least Grappling Hook allows you to role play on your way to your location.

[kalaratic]

so now that they've renamed the feedback threads to just say "Beta Feedback" instead of a thread per major build, is it fair to say to say these are the threads they're going to read for the next 3 months? how are they going to stay updated between beta builds if they have to sort through feedback that could be weeks old? or does this just mean at this point they will only make class changes so minor they really don't care about what people think

[Mafic]

so now that they've renamed the feedback threads to just say "Beta Feedback" instead of a thread per major build, is it fair to say to say these are the threads they're going to read for the next 3 months? how are they going to stay updated between beta builds if they have to sort through feedback that could be weeks old? or does this just mean at this point they will only make class changes so minor they really don't care about what people think

Stick a fork as they are done...they might take ideas for a future patch or the next expansion. But yeah they are done.

I anticipate with another tuning pass that will be more likely. Once the PTR goes up that is when you should turn out the lights as the party is over.

[Deleted]

I think this is the time to think more strategically. No use in complaining about all the possible flaws because we know that at best most of them are here to stay. So no use in bashing the talents, SoD, Shadow Nova, Backstab, or lack of AoE and CC. Blizzard was pretty adamant about all of this throughout the Alpha and we're in the Beta already, so we all have to be realistic in the sense that the spec is probably 90~95% done. Complaining about every single issue right now, no matter how valid those complaints are, just gives the devs the overall impression that the feedback from the thread is simply "CURRENT SUB SUCKS, CHANGE EVERYTHING" and they'll be more likely to dismiss it.

If we look at all the flaws in Sub, at this stage of the game I think what is more likely to be changed are the talents. Core abilities are rarely altered during expansions, save for number tuning, but talent trees are more prone to change. So, for this reason, I think this is where we (you guys with Beta) should concentrate our energies. Also, the poor opinion on the talent trees across the Rogue specs is probably the most unanimous feedback among testers.

I don't know if this would work and honestly, I'm not expecting any more significant changes to the spec. I believe in the theory that the devs don't engage in much debate about changes to the specs they are the least familiar with (you can witness this as there are a handful of specs that get blue posts much more often while some I believe haven't got any). However, I think focusing feedback on the talents will give us a better chance for changes while sparing the testers from having to repeat themselves about a dozen of issues over and over.

[Smaxy]

I would hope that at this point talents are open to change. I still can't fathom why Assn has the Stealth talent row.

Makes me hopeful for a large talent rework.

[kalaratic]

I would hope that at this point talents are open to change. I still can't fathom why Assn has the Stealth talent row.

Makes me hopeful for a large talent rework.

surprised u still have hope at this point